@junzhang10 I had a mac mini with my music and was not a fan due to constant restore from backups i had to do. I always keep my backup disk near the macmini. I must be an outlier with this experience, otherwise people would not praise the mini. I am not a fan of the macs.
My question was really abut using a computer in the playback chain and not a fancy audio computer, Audiotroy has stated that a dedicated streamer is better due to isolation of noise in the streaming chain.
I am curious if anyone has compared the dedicated music server/streamers (really low noise audio computers) vs the noisy computer + digital-2-digital converters options. |
@mrdon The reason I am looking for something even better than the microRendu (a very good unit) for the office is that some of the components will eventually make it’s way to the downstairs main system. I am not able to use the downstairs room yet because my toddler uses it for his play room. However, life is short and I don’t mind building my main system via the office.
@rbstehno The setup you have described is similar to what I have but I am using Sonare products to server as my ROON endpoints. I have the Sonare microRendu and a SonicOrbiter (previously used in a now sold system). I do not have to have my music in my office computer. I could move it the 1 of many servers I have running in other rooms of my house. My cheapo (actually a thowaway from an old job) office music computer is dead silent. What you are describing with your PS Audio + Bridge is exactly the basis of my thread. I am asking why is a dedicated music server better than the digital-to-digital conversion that you and I are currently using. In your case it is mac-to-bridge for me PC-to-microRendu.
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@audioman58 I know a lot of people prefer JRiver (which I also own) to ROON. My current system is not good enough for me to hear much of a difference (a Pearchtree Nova 150 integrated with DAC). I prefer the GUI on ROON over everything else. Around 1998 I was thinking of writing a software program (Windows GUI based) to manage my CD and LP collection. I would have designed it very similar to the GUI JRiver currently uses (or 2 versions back). My point is that JRiver should step it up and become a better competitor to ROON. |
@audiotroy I appreciate the time you took to respond with your opinion as to WHY you think it is better to use a dedicated server. I do understand your argument. You also make another interesting point: The fact that many people find that a dedicated server sounds far better than any old remote computer even over the network is proof positive that a dedicated server makes digital sound better. That is the feedback or thought process I was inquiring about. How about some of you who have switched to the dedicated server side, care to chime in with your opinion? |
One observation that surprised me and validates something that Audiotroy is saying about Ethernet was a YouTube video I saw of GTT Audio’s display at Axpona 2019. Audiotroy’s comment below: We have tested over the years computers with external power supplies, both directly connected via USB and over Ethernet connections, and the sound quality was lacking The idea of a dedicated server is to preserve the data’s integrity, a dedicated server uses in most cases a custom motherboard, custom usb and or Ethernet outputs, custom BIOS, a linear power supply, re-clocking circuity, shielding, power filtration, and other techniques designed to keep the data signals being sent to the dac pristine.
As per direct USB vs Ethernet connection it really depends on the dac some dacs will sound better via USB while others will sound better via Ethernet.
I have been following the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC/Streamer and Makua preamp/DAC for a while now. The Tambaqui just recently came out and is now in the hands of a few owners. It is getting rave reviews by users. One of many things that interested me on this DAC was the built-in Ethernet streaming on the Tambaqui (the Makua will get this streaming feature soon). However, at Axpona 2019, GTT Audio was stating that their best streaming performance was obtained by using the Auralic G2. I was surprised at that thinking that direct to Ethernet (and less components) would be better. Auralic CEO has stated on a Computer AUdiophile thread that they do not like to have a harddrive on the internal G2 chasis even though they have this feature. It also supports external harddrives via USB. If I could talk to the Innous designers I would make the suggestion of removing the CD transport and making a streamer only product. I was searching on their site for such a product and they don’t seem to have that. For someone who is very computer literate as myself I got the sense that the Innous products were targeted at non-computer experts, which is a much bigger target audience. |
@steakster I have read about the Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 and it was getting a lot of good reviews. However, I was thinking that it maybe a bit like my microRendu in the fact that it is a relatively older unit. I am a little biased when it comes to digital and looking at the most recent tech. For analog I am not like this and I am looking to buy a new amp that originally came out in 2014 (or earlier). |
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@ahofer Nice link you posted. I went through some articles on this bloggers site and came across this very interesting article that is asking the same question as my thread. The thing I cannot understand is when people like this blogger state that the streamer does not matter and when guys like Audiotroy, Darko, et al say otherwise. I cannot discount all the people saying there is a difference and will do a home demo of some of these music servers and see for myself. Maybe an Innous | Auralic G2 | Sonare microRendu comparison. I will have to wait until later this year when I get a better system to test this out. http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/12/measurements-intel-i7-pc-and-raspberry.html Summary:Well then... Let’s wind this down and draw a few conclusions based on the data:
1. If you’re an audiophile who wants low noise performance, go for a DAC with balanced XLR analogue output (and make sure the rest of your system is up to par).
2. While my experience has been that jitter is rather inaudible, if you want low jitter performance, asynchronous USB is generally better than S/PDIF (TosLink or coaxial). Newer DACs like the Oppo UDP-205 and RME ADI-2 Pro FS have excellent S/PDIF jitter rejection so even this difference is minimal. The better your DAC, the more "bits are bits".
3. I remain skeptical of claims that digital streamer devices can affect sound quality significantly unless they are actually changing the data sent to the DAC. As per the tests today, we see that even a computer that’s not "optimized" for audio with ostensibly "noisy" hardware does not actually deteriorate measured playback quality nor actually worsen the noise floor much at all even when put under a very intense processing load. Furthermore, this was tested with the 5-year old TEAC UD-501 DAC rather than newer and potentially better devices.
4. This continues to add to the evidence that "audiophile" computer-based digital "transports" do not make a significant difference to the sound. I cannot subjectively hear a difference either when I play music as I switched around the configurations while measuring. What’s most important remains the quality of the DAC itself. In my opinion, other than the user interface, supported features or the "non-utilitarian" benefits like the esthetics and the "wow factor" of an expensive system, "high end" devices like the Melco previously discussed will make no appreciable difference to the sound quality itself compared to an inexpensive Raspberry Pi connected to the same "good" DAC. As usual, I would like to see evidence to the contrary and challenge the manufacturers of such products (Aurender, Auralic, SOtM, Sonore, Fidelizer, Baetis, Antipodes, Innuos, etc.) to demonstrate objective benefits from the DAC output using their products (please also identify the DAC used and under what conditions).
5. Having said the above, remember that there are indeed subtle differences we can see on objective testing but I certainly would not consider these significant in my system. Be reasonable with your set-up and there should not be any concerns. Obviously, do not do things like put your DAC in close proximity to a powerful computer as the DAC and any poorly shielded cables could pick up electrical interference (one example is the old measurement using my ASUS Xonar Essence One back in the day sitting close to the computer). Remember the importance of low ambient noise in your sound room when enjoying music among other things like room treatments and decent reverb time. EQ’ing and digital room correction make huge differences as well. Also, especially if you have a complex component audio system, make sure to address ground loops if you hear hum. |
@dpac996 Your observations mirror mine regarding a noisy or busy computer streaming to a Rendu. I do not hear any difference when I have a lot of programs running on my computer. I have very good hearing (one of a few things I am good at).
However, the issue is whether a dedicated audio server is better than the noisy computer - Rendu approach. Quite a few posters are saying there is an audible difference with a dedicated server. |
@mgrif104 I had to do a little research on the Aurender N100H and the feedback you provided was what I was looking for.
There are so many factors when considering getting the bits to your DAC.
- location of hard drive
- type of hard drive
- wired vs wireless
- Ethernet or USB out from source
- Type of input into a DAC
- use an internal DAC in a streamer
- cables
- ROON | JRiver | others
- quality of audio system playing the tunes
I can find a link somewhere online from reviewers, manufacturers, and users that argue for various combination of these things with so much divergence in opinion.
Good thing is that almost all combinations of the approaches today sound better than in the days of my old Squeezebox (2004ish).
This old dog is starting to think that maybe I need to learn a new trick and give a dedicated audio server a shot. |
@shredder Can you explain to me how the optical version differs from the microRendu? What does OPTICAL mean in this context? I looked in the Sonare web site to figure this out but it was not clear to me. |
@shredder Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like I should contact Sonare and talk with one of their reps about the optical. @emcdade I actually have this same thread on CA but the responses here have been more enlightening. What you are saying is what I am seeing to a reasonable extent with my microRendu. However, with the new more resolving DAC I will buy, even Sonare tells me to get something better than the mircroRendu. I spoke to a dealer yesterday , who I think is a straight shooter, about his thoughts on Aurender, SimAudio Mind2 and 390 Network Player that he carries (also Anthem dealer). His response to me was the following (edited): I think that my first choice for the streamers would be the MOON 390. It sounds very nice, does ROON, and MQA, as well as it has so many other features. It is like an audio Swiss Army Knife. We have compared it with other DACs and Streamers, and unless you are willing to double your money at least you won’t find a better sounding unit.
Mind 2 is very good, and all the MOON products have a 10 year warranty, and 100% trade in for the first year, and 75% in the 2nd year. The Aurender is excellent sounding, though I am not fond of the style of interface they use on the app, just a personal preference, some do like it. At the moment I am going in with the assumption that I need the Anthem STR preamp with room correction. Thus a streamer and/or server is needed too. However, if my home demo of speakers shows that the acoustic room treatments I have suffice and the Anthem room correction is not needed, then the Moon 390 Network player seems like a serious contender. |
@mgrif104 Congrats on the new streamer. I am sure it will sound good. I am starting to feel that all of the streamers discussed in this thread are rather good and some are great. I am looking for great (reason for thread).
I felt the NAD m12/m22 system I demoed was very good but the same speakers with Simaudio was almost great. However, the $$$ cost was way higher on the Simaudio system. The cost factor also goes into my feelings on my audio happiness.
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@sfseay I think you maybe correct. After this thread and the research I did for it I am thinking a Lumin T2 or X1 (using fibre optic cable) is what I will try. If I get the T2 then a Sonare optical network -to-USB would be considered. |
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@audiotroy I am shocked you have not thought of the name audioGON for your store name. |
