Component contributions to “sound stage”

Thanks folks, this is interesting.  I assumed most folks would start with the speakers, but it’s interesting how many started with the recording.  Keep it coming.

kn

OK, here we go.  I asked this question in part because of recent discussions on ASR and Head Fi Science Forum about measuring soundstage and if different DACs could contribute to a listener’s perception of soundstage in their system.  It ended (for me) in a protracted lecture in how modern DACs, or any other piece of modern audio electronics that measure well could not possibly contribute to perceived soundstage, and if the listener perceives it, it is entirely down to ‘expectation bias’.  Speakers, placement and room, yes, electronics (and especially digital electronics), a hard no.  I started this post because I am curious about what others on this forum think about this issue and I wanted to be open to any responses without coloring the discussion, at least initially.

My experience is that yes, room, speakers (or headphones), and placement in the room including listening position are primary.  Of course if there is not a good representation of soundstage embedded in the original recording, then reproducing what isn’t there in the first place isn’t really what I am after here.  My second system is at my workstation and nearfield where tiny differences in my head or speaker position make a big difference in how I perceive soundstage.  
 

My main system is a combined AV/music system where the speakers are on the wall, so and soundstaging there is limited to lateral and height with elements of depth being sacrificed.  I am OK with that if I am getting good lateral presentation with accurate timing and tone from my gear and my speakers.  I have been tinkering with my main system (same receiver and speakers) for over a decade to get the two channel (non-dsp) sound I want, and here is what I have noticed:

-speaker cables matter in my system.  I went from entry level multistrand wires to solid cord cables with higher quality materials and design elements and this made a noticeable difference in both tone and soundstage presicsion

-replacing the stock metal jumpers bars on my small budget speakers in my second system with OCC silver plated copper jumpers with teflon dialectric had a big impact on higher frequencies and soundstage - these were from China, not the kind that cost more than the speakers themselves.

-changing phono cartridges matters

-phono preamp matters

-wait for it… digital front ends/DACs matter, and matter a lot in my system to my ears.  If you include the DACs in my disc players and receiver, I’ve used at least eight different digital front ends my main listening room and four in my second system at work.

Just some examples of the differences I heard in different digital front ends include running PCM raw data from a disc player to my Arcam AVR and using the internal DACs provided a wide soundstage but no center fill, even when adjusting the the toe in on my speakers.  The sound of this arrangement was also a little hard and sterile, but the bass through my sub was very clean and tight via the digital level in.  On the other hand, the soundstage using Arcam irDAC and bypassing the digital processing in the Arcam AVR was concentrated in the center, much more musical, but the bass was a bit more wooly.  When I swapped the irDAC for a Chord QuteHD, the soundstage opened up considerably, to the width and height of by analog front end, but with more precise placement of vioces and instruments.  These differences were not as striking as those provided by swapping speakers, but were not subtle.  Of course mentioning such effects on the science forums resulted in scorn and an impassioned defense of the castle.  YMMV.

kn

@ghdprentice +1

@blisshifi “While the DAC chip and conversion process itself should not be responsible for altering the presentation of the soundstage, the rest of the design and engineering of the DAC, including how it manages a low noise floor to the design of its analog stage, can contribute to how the stage is presented.”

💯

I assemble my own power cables and have banished all switching power supplies from my system as I have tried to optimize everything from digital signal cables to the type of hard drive I use for my file server.  Those actions have incrementally reduced noise, improved timing and added clarity to leading and trailing edges of notes in digital reproduction.  But the Chord DACs I’ve used (currently a Chord Qutest) made the biggest difference in digital presentation of soundstage, with cable and power supply upgrades adding definition to various elements in the sound field.  I can only imagine better DACs would provide even deeper insights into spatial information in recordings.

To suggest as some do that modern DACs are all “audibly perfect” and that modern electronics have no role in how we experience sound stage in our systems “unless they are badly broken” is just not consistent with my experience with my systems.

kn

I would also add that putting a blanket over my television mounted on the wall between my speakers does wonders for the soundstage when listening in two channel.

kn

@williewonka I will check out those links.  Thanks.

kn