Comparison of sonic qualities of some tonearms

I think the OP asks a great question.

As a data point, I compared the Kuzma Safir to the Kuzma 4 point 11 on a Stabi R turntable, in the process of deciding whether or not to buy the former. I understand @lewm’s caveat that you can only ever get partial results due to the need to match tonearms with appropriate cartridges. So, I brought my 4 point with a Zyx Universe Optimum, well broken in, and adjusted it with an Acoustical Systems Smartractor. Dealer had the Safir with an MSL Gold. We swapped the tonearms and listened to the same LPs.

To me (and him, the salesman) the results were not subtle. The Safir/MSL was clearly superior to the 4 point/Zyx Optimum. I believe it was a difference that anyone would hear. The immediate sensation was of moving from a small street to a broad avenue of sound. Just more, wider, deeper, more detailed, better timbre, more relaxed, more dynamic, etc. A notable sensation in the bass was the sustain: acoustic bass notes just lingered and rang much longer than I had heard before. this struck me because up til then, the Zyx Uni had the best bass of any cartridge I had heard. I doubt this was the difference between these two, high level cartridges. my sense, after this experiment, was that I had really underestimated the importance of a good tonearm. (I bought the Safir).

@tomic601 

I have to ask… why not evaluate both arms w same cartridge ? note, i am a fan of both Kuzma arms… and have decent seat time w both.  

it was the electromagnetic pulses. 

Seriously, neither one of us wanted to go through mounting and unmounting both fancy cartridges twice. And I've since found that the Zyx Uni is not happy on the Safir so it wouldn't have yielded much benefit anyway. The Zyx can't seem to track very well on the high mass arm.  Franc Kuzma says it shouldn't matter but apparently it does. 

I do miss the 4 point especially for the headshells and I'm setting up my old turntable mainly so I can make use of that tonearm. To be honest I was surprised at the distance between the two arms. But that's what I heard. 

@mijostyn 

@jollytinker You noticed a difference between cartridge arm combinations., not tonearms.

Yes, if you *read* my comment you'll notice that I said exactly that. It's why I refer to Lewm's caveat. But the import of his many-times repeated comment, as I see it, is that at some point you have to move on and make a pragmatic decision based on incomplete knowledge. 

The MSL would have sounded better in the 4 Point and much the same as it sounded in the Saphir with perhaps better bas due to the Saphirs very high EF.

this is rather glib, don't you think? have you actually tried this, or are you just speculating? I highly doubt that it's true. What you're referring to is commonly known as a "tweak," as opposed to a difference in "design" and its effects. the difference I heard with the SAFIR vs the 4 point was the latter, but of course I had a limited amount of time to make the determination with a lot of money at stake. Such is life. I was listening carefully. 

Again, I offered this as a data point. IMHO, what makes these forums interesting and worthwhile is the concrete experience and comparison, not the dogma.

@lewm

Thanks for your comment. I couldn't agree more.

Our knowledge is always incomplete. The best one can hope for is to learn over time.

@jollytinker Yes, actually. It was a MSL Platinum signature on a Saphir mounted on a CS Port turntable and the 4 point was on a Kuzma R. Now, this was at a friend’s house and he feels the Saphir sounded better. He's a lot more impressionable than I am.

@mijostyn Actually, "no" would be your correct answer, because you used two different turntables. If you compare different arms on different tables with presumably different cartridges, you haven’t shown anything at all. The point of my post, as you could easily read, was to give a controlled comparison between two tonearm/cartridges, which requires using the same turntable at the least. 

[I decided to edit and re-post my comment as parts of it might have been insulting to people who are not involved in this discussion and that is not my intention. The essential point is that mijostyn has apparently been listening to these arms in the very same room where I heard the SAFIR arm and compared it to the 4 point 11. If that’s the case, I suggest that he go there himself, at his convenience, and do the experiment on the exact same table as I did and with the same tonearms. That way, he can decide whether or not this is a case of his friend's being ‘impressionable’ or of hearing a significant difference attributable to a different tonearm design.]