Ck,
Can you elaborate some on what you found lacking and include which amps specifically and the systems used in?
Thanks. |
I have the Bel Canto ref1000 mkii monoblocks. They are the real deal and work very well with tube pre-amps which tend to have higher output impedance (not all Class Ds may be ideal matches for tube pre-amps), and all the speakers in my system, all of which tend to benefit from the high current delivery and damping factor.
For speakers that benefit from this (not all do), they are just what the doctor ordered in a small energy efficient package. For others that do not, well, I expect Class D to be competitive as well but there may also be a lot of viable competition. My amp hunt is over for the foreseeable future. |
Readers please note that the BEl Canto ref1000 and ref1000m (or mkii as the ref100m has also been called)are two significantly different designs that reprotedly sound different and may work differently in different system configurations. Be sure you know exactly which design is being referred to.
When vendors change a design but only alter the model names slightly, things can be confusing. USing two different designations for the same design (re1000m and ref1000mkii) only makes thnings worse. |
When I acquired my ref100ms used, the seller kindly obliged me and opened up the boxes to confirm the specific design. I f I were to pay a premium for that model, which I did, I wanted to be certain that the right guts were in there and not just rely on a model label on the rear casing.
Yes, the dc offset deal is news to me. Some explanation of what that is and why it might be an issue with some speakers and class D would be educational. |
Coffey,
Which one(s) did you try?
I think you are the first person I have heard allude to too much bass as a result of a Class D.
Mine are certainly not lacking in that department, though they sounded relatively lean in comparison to my prior non class D amp at first. I attribute that to the very high damping factor, which works well with my OHM speakers in particular to deliver tight clean and articulate yet powerful bass.
I could see where it might be considered too much in some cases like as a result of some bass heavy room acoustics maybe or other factors upstream that affect bass levels. |
"QUESTION: how do the 2 different kilowatt Bel Canto amps differ? Don't they both use the B+O ASP module? Is there only a difference in input circuitry or the Zobel?"
ref1000 is stock Icepower module in a nice box.
ref1000m has additional input buffer and power supply circuits. If you open up the box, the 3 separate circuit boards/modules are clearly visible. It is dead quiet and most nonfatiguing.
I have read that ref1000m effectively addresses RF noise concerns in comparison to ref1000.
I have never owned or heard any other Bel Canto amp so I cannot offer an assessment of sound differences. From what I read however, others sem to concur that there are differences. |
Coxhous,
ref1000 (10K icepower stock module input impedance) may not be an optimal mach in terms of input impedance for your tube pre-amp. That might be a factor in weak/poor bass.
ref100m has 100K input impedance specifically to perform better with tube pre-amps.
I seem to recall that newer Spectrons may have higher input impedance for use with tube pre-amps as well, more like ref1000m than ref1000.
Also damping factor could be a factor as well. Not sure about Spectron DF but BC 100m is >1000, which is very high and might produce lean sounding bass with speakers that do not benefit. Or it is possible that this particular flavor of highly damped bass may not be to everyone's particular liking. Then again, what is?
The OHM Walsh speakers in my system do benefit from high damping. The bass is more dynamic, cleaner and articulate than with the 120 w/ch amp I used prior with lower damping. The change was pronounced when I switched amps and sounded relatively lean at first, but that was a temporary illusion.
The difference in the bass with my Dynaudio monitors was significantly less noticeable yet also clearly present.
Bottom line is things sound more real and natural to me compared to live now with the BC ref1000ms in my system than ever before.
Also I do not feel that performance is lacking in any significant area now compared to the best reference systems I have heard recently.
I am always actively listening to establish new reference standards that I can target though, so we'll see.... |
I leave my Class Ds on 24X7 also with little concern, except if I am away for more than a day or so I will turn them off. |
CK,
Can't say I'm experiencing any of those issues with the BC ref1000m monblocks in my rig these days.
I have never compared to say W4S equivalent. From what I have heard and read and based on what I know about the designs and the price difference, I would expect there to be a noticeable difference. |
CK,
One thing with the BC refs is they have very high damping factor, which I could imagine might make speakers that do not require high damping sound somewhat tighter or leaner perhaps.
The OHMs in my system are renowned for drinking lots of power and current and also to sound best with high damping, so the BCs were a very good match on paper and have panned out equally well in practice luckily.
I run a pair of small Triangle Titus XS monitor speakers off my system also. These are more efficient and easy to drive, more tube friendly speakers. The high damping and current may be a bit of overkill with these in that sometimes I detect a touch of leanness with these perhaps compared to some other amps I have used. |
"Those who claim Class D amps are aggressive and/or unbalanced either haven't heard the newest products or have poor listening skills."
Or they may have heard them in the wrong setup.
No amp or amp technology works best in all cases, including Class D, though I suspect it may be the most versatile amp technology around overall nonetheless. |
I've found the Class D's in my rig to be phenominal for modern pop/rock music, the best by far I have ever owned.
Only big, expensive, heavy, hot running, power gulping monster amps can compete with this kind of music IMHO.
I was listening to "Amputechture" by The Mars Volta last night, LOUD!
This record contains visceral, muscular prog metal that can rip you apart (in a good way) if well delivered, and also has some delicate, beautifully recorded parts. The BC ref amps deliver it all beautifully and you can listen to the whole album loud as intended without being chased from room (assuming this kind of music is your cu of tea to start with, which it may not be for many). Of course you also need speakers that can play the game as well.
Lower your refined audiophile/musical standards a bit and play Boom Boom Pow by the Black Eyed Peas. The electronic percussion should be both viscerally powerful but clean crisp and dynamic. That's what I hear with my Class D amps running either pair of my OHM Walsh speakers.
"Thrak" by the venerable "King Crimson" is a similar kind of listen that will either hold you enthralled if things are clicking or chase you out of the room if not.
They do similarly well on most any kind of music you throw at them.
So when someone proposes that modern Class D amps just cannot cut it, I have to take that with a major grain of salt. In the right system, they are exactly what the doctor ordered IMHO. |
"King Crimson typically chases me out of the room"
Well, they certainly are not everyone's cup of tea. Most people either love them or hate them.
What I like about the act is that they have a well deserved reputation for musical innovation, perhaps more so and over a longer period of time (practically the whole duration of modern rock music) than almost any other widely known rock music act. They practically invested art rock back in teh late sixties and have managed to keep up with and often ahead of the pack in almost every decade since. |
I'm convinced the better Class D amps are those that pay special attention to the power source on-board. |
