CJ vs. BAT vs. THOR preamps, who's best?
I haven't heard the Thor, but I owned the CJ Premier LS16 mk II and the BAT VK-51SE. I choose the BAT. The CJ was a little sweeter in the mid's, but the BAT was much better dynamically (including the bass). Both were very good preamps, and it will depend on what you want most. I loved the vocals on the CJ, but music sounded much more lively through the BAT. Ultimately I kept the BAT. YMMV. Cheers, John |
I think synergy has a lot to do with the sound, and if you do decide on a CJ preamp I'd highly recommend mating it with the 350. I know a bigtime CJ fan, who moved up from a Premier 16LS mk II/Premier 8 monoblock setup to an ACT2/350 and couldn't be happier. He claims the 350 is the best sounding CJ amp he's ever heard. He's a 20 year fan of CJ, and knows Bill and Lew personally. That said, I was running a pair of Clayton Audio M100 monoblock amps at the time of the CJ/BAT preamp testing that I mentioned above. The M100's have a rather low input impedence, which would favor the BAT, since it has a lower output impedence. Perhaps if I'd heard both preamps with the CJ 350 I would have choosen to keep the CJ instead of the BAT, who knows? Yes, the CJ does have a sweeter vocal range than the BAT, but in my system, the BAT did so much other stuff better (dynamics, power, soundstage, etc) that in the end I choose it. Since then I've mated it with a BAT VK-600SE and haven't looked back. I running fully balanced with a BAT VK-P10SE w/ Super-Pak phono stage and a VK-D5SE w/Super-Pak and I'm very happy. :-) The CJ was very good, and came in second in my preamp search last year. I went through preamps from Mark Levinson, Krell, Threshold, VAC, CJ and BAT, all in my system. The BAT VK-51SE was my personal favorite by far. The CJ was a distant second. However, like I said, if I had it mated with a CJ amp, perhaps the results would have been different. I listen to mostly jazz, blues and folk, and I do admit that on most vocal material the CJ was the best preamp. However, there's more to music than the vocals, for me anyway. The CJ just could not boogie like the BAT. As always, YMMV. The BAT preamp run balanced would sound best with your current BAT amp. It's a shame your dealer won't carry a 350, since I've talked to many who swear it's the sweetest sounding SS they've ever heard. You have a tough, but fun decision to make as to which direction you want to go musically. The 'house sound' of CJ is very sweet, inviting and extremely musical. The BAT 'house sound' is BIG, dynamic and powerful. Not that the CJ doesn't do dynamics, or the BAT is not musical, because they do. I would think that the rest of your system would decide which is a better fit. Since you only do digital, and are using the VR-4 JR's, I think you may prefer the CJ. My friend had a pair of VR-4JR's (he's since moved on to Revel speakers), but from what I remember of his VR-4JR's they were very quick and dynamic, but a bit lean. So the added warmth of the CJ may work better in your system than in mine. My speakers (Verity Audio Parsifal Encore's) are very warm and sweet, and enjoy the added punch and life of the BAT equipment. It seems like we have similar musical tastes, but different systems. There is more than one way to reach musical nirvana. You've choosen three very interesting paths. Only one that you know. Just one word of precaution, sometimes the best is already in front of you and you don't know it. By that I mean that before starting my 7 preamp world tour last year, my preamp was a BAT VK-31SE. I was sure it was my preamp that needed to be upgraded. Over the next 6 months I bought and sold 6 preamps (I kept one). Many were big dissapointments. It was after the first two preamps came and went, rather quickly I might add, that I realized I'd made a mistake selling the BAT VK-31SE. My final choice really did come down to the CJ 16LS mk II or the BAT VK-51SE. So if you're happy with the music you're hearing now, save money and buy more software. Sorry for rambling, John |
Well Jim, I owned a VAC Ren MK 2 for a couple of days, I bought it used on AudiogoN, but it must have been defective. While it did sound very good musically, I could not touch anything on the front panel, mute switch, volume control, selector switch, nothing without getting a loud crackling sound come through my speakers. So I sent it back....long story. One note though, the VAC is not fully balanced, only psuedo balanced. That means it doesn't have a fully differential design (same circuitry for + and - legs of each channel). It merely has balanced input jacks which it then converts to single ended once inside the preamp/amp. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just making sure that you know. Regards, John |
Swampwalker, I'm sure it was defective, as my wife assures me that I certainly do not have a highly charged personality ;~) It's a shame, because when listening while using the remote and not touching the unit, it definitely had big potential. I thought it sounded better than the CJ 16LS mk II that I had, but I prefferred the BAT VK-51SE. The VAC was a bit more refined, while the BAT was more dynamic and powerful. It comes down to personal choices and system matching me thinks. John |
It's the alledged "SuperTube". I've heard similar responses from folks when BAT first went to it, and Audio Research and CJ fans say the same thing. The 6H30 tube that they all use now is more dynamic and powerful, the 6922 tubes had more of the midrange bloom that traditional tubes were known for. Personal tastes and system matching will dictate which tube sounds best to you. |
I wish I could say that this story surprised me, but it doesn't. And some people wonder why bricks and mortar stores go out of business. I don't bother much anymore. IMHO, the Ayre would have been the only product that would have interested me in that store. You may want to e-mail Charles Hansen of Ayre this story. He seems like a 'good guy', and may be 'GENUINELY' interested in how his products are being represented. I would anyway. Good luck with the Thor, and let me know how it sounds. John |
01-30-07: Blindjim No problem with the video, it was fun to take a peek of MTV before MTV. The fact that many people say positive things on the warranty forms simply reveals that those who give their money to this store are happy. It does not show all the money this store has turned away. Maybe they don't want to be bigger who knows. I do think enough of Charles that I'd let him know my opinion. Classy manufacturers welcome even negative feedback, as they realize that no one is perfect, and it only makes them stronger. If all of the negative experiences go unreported, then problems are never addressed. Though I have no respect for the store that you dealt with, I have enough for Charles and Ayre, that I would just offer them my impressions of how this dealer displayed their products. Mention your friends reaction to this dealer as well. I would think that Charles would want to properly display his equipment. Who knows, he may even offer you an in-home demo for free. Best, John |
01-31-07: Blindjim I disagree. I think they only know what they are told. If everyone says they're great, they can start believing their own press clippings. They cannot go by sales alone, since markets in different areas will provide different quotas. For instance, a store in Mississippi cannot be expected to sell as many preamps as a store in New York City. That's enough about that though. As for your utopian high end philososphy, yes it would be nice, but don't hold your breath. Like it or not, the glory days of stereo are gone, at least in the USA. Here is a quote from Steve Keiser, the 'K' in B&K, and the designer of the legendary B&K ST-140 amp. This interview is from May 2006. "IN REALITYÂ… The industry has changed since the B&K days. The addition of home theatre has had an enormous impact in that now a video component has been added to the total home entertainment experience as well as the addition of surround sound. Actually, this means that dedicated music listening audio systems are loosing favor to home theatre, since the various surveys that I have seen have revealed a steady decline in two channel audio for the last 20 years. The number of dealers retailing audio-only two channel equipment continues to dwindle, and the perspective buyers and market for two channel equipment is also depleting. Still, there remains an opportunity for manufacturers who are manifesting the highest caliber of performance they can possibly muster from their designs, and these companies can have a shot at being successful. It is exceedingly less likely, though, that an up and coming manufacturer (like Luminance) can be financially successful in the long run, because the available market is about 75% smaller in the U.S. than when B&K was launched. On the other hand, there exists today an international market which has largely supplanted the U.S. market for most companies. So, factoring in the availability of the entire world at manufacturersÂ’ disposal, the market share to date is probably about 75% that of when B&K was launched, so the probability of success for new companies is only slightly diminished as compared to 20 years ago." Now that is only factoring in HT as a competitor, add in the Ipods and the new Microsoft Vista as entertainment competition, not to mention whatever another couple years down the road brings, I don't see mass production quantities of stereo equipment increasing the near future. Not a pessimist, just a realist. BTW, if the Thor doesn't quite work out, you may be interested in checking out the Audio Horizons TP 2.0. I know a couple guys who have sold some very expensive preamps who are raving about this factory direct unit. From what I understand, they have also just added a remote control. As soon as they come out with a fully balanced model I'll have to place an order. John |
Well actually Jim, Audio Horizons does offer XLR inputs and outputs via balanced transformers, like VAC. Not 'true' balanced for sure, but they claim it does make a difference. Funny you should mention it, they have just started shipping units with remote controls too. Hopefully you'll be thrilled with your new Thor. I just threw the AH in, just in case. I know someone who says the AH TP 2.0 smoked his CJ Premier 16LS mk II, FWIW. John |
Far more than one has related that same story to me. things lose some credibility IMO when someone offs an $8K piece for $2K it plain doesn't make sense to me. I agree to some extent, but I do consider mark up when looking at the list prices. Because CJ has to include dealer mark up (40%), advertising and marketing (40%), in their retail price, I figure the $8K CJ preamp could be had for $3K tops if selling factory direct. Now figure that the new AH owner spent over $3K with all of the upgrade packages, and it doesn't surprise me at all. You are basically comparing identically priced units. The CJ just cost more because you pay for the dealer mark up and advertising that gets you the glossy rags reviews. Pretty basic really. You have to compare apples to apples. Comparing a famous brand $8K preamp to another famous brand $2K preamp is one thing, and I agree with you that many times a great reco here is just because the owner of the $2K unit cannot afford the $8K unit, so he claims his $2K unit outperformed it. However, do not underestimate the cost of doing business, and therefore underestimate the value of a factory direct product. Comparing the list prices in this situation is like comparing apples and oranges, IMHO. John |
