CJ vs. BAT vs. THOR preamps, who's best?

Thanks, Bill, and John.

wow! given what I've found out first hand in the BAT gears reproduction of music I'm a bit flabergasted to hear that another and yet, sweeter mid can be produced, apart from BAT.

I enjoy all sorts of music. All sorts. Except 'Hip Hop' & 'Rap'. ain't real big on monks doing mantras either... but mostly I live in the Blues, Jazz, Vocals area of music... though if it be a good recording, I do enjoy it immensely. Whatever the genre... even opera & classical. That's a big strectch for me as I've been known to say in the past, when asked aobut what music I have on hand, "I have both kinds, Country... and Western'. Long time since those days, though.

Mating to the solid state amp well seems the issue as personally I think any ov the three pres would float my boat, so to speak. My local CJ dealer is mostly a tube type. All the way. It's doubtful he'll ever have the P350 on hand at the same time as say a LS17, or CT6, so finding out about that part continues to elude me...

So about the service end of things and matching to solid state amps with any of these pres seems the question that is foremost my concern.... Anyone know which of these pres should not be mated to a SS amp? (likely either the BAT vk600 or CJ Premeir 350), and for a time right off, the BAT vk500 I have now)....???

Well, I'm sorry it's so long before getting back to this thread... but thanks Cmach, and John..

Following a recent trip to the nearest CJ dealer my thoughts as to buying CJ's newest offerings have sorely diminished. Could wwell have been the setup.. synergy... or the mix. Nothing jump[ed out at me and said, "buy me!". Nothing. I wound up the auditions with the CT5 & 70wpc tube amp, CJ's replacement for their vaunted 60wpc unit. using the Cary hybrid CD player... and some quasi Quadd speakers from Austrailia... real pretty and pretty expensive too... On the whole it just didn't grab me. About as neutral a system as I had experienced. the dealer did say both pre & amp had the recomended 100 hours on them... I think they needed twice that or more... the sound was quick, open, extended, with decent bottom end given the plannar speakers sans sub... Nice enough though for the cost of the items together and their place in CJ's line up, well, lets just say I've a far more involving system. Warmer, richer, better imaging, and far better bottom end resolution, with greater presence in the mids too... not counting wiring for the cost of the CT5 ALONE.

...as John said so aptly,
"...Just one word of precaution, sometimes the best is already in front of you and you don't know it."

That's a big 10/4!

Not having the ability to just pick up and go as most do, finding out by comparison what level of system I have, has been sorely overlooked. Things are quite good at blindjim's house. Not perfect, just very good. I'll take that... for the time being and be satisfied with 'tweeking' things a bit with wiring, stands, another sub and such. I'm even more accepting of the JR's now... as they are finally broken in and sounding much better... but a few more db's of sensitivity would be nice.. say 90?

The dealer was quite nice and helpful, as always.. and we decided the only true way to determine what's what, is take a 'whatever' home and try it there... that's the ticket. ...and I just might, given the above posting to the effect that a single ended pre works good with the balanced BAT amp I have... that was/is a big concern for me.... as wholesale changes can not be made now or in the near future... so now, with a new & different set of NOS tubes and searching for some IC's between BAT & BAT, I'm pretty satisfied with my gear.

That's my problem as I see it... having the notion that the grass is always greener on the other side... it ain't always... and I've found if I'm thinking the grass is greener on the other side, it's time to water my own lawn.

With the thor gear I heard some time back, being the best "That's the ticket!" sound I've heard in over twenty years, I'm going to wait a while longer... My amp, as far as amps go, is near new being just under three years old... my pre is solid and does a great job. the CDP is quite nice and would require me spending mucho bucks to improve upon... so yep... gonna stick with what I've got and just tweak it a mite. ...although another 'door' may well have opened as I've found out that 'V.A.C.' ala Mr. Hayes, is not terribly far away either... and that's a balanced configuration too. Super! What does a VAC pre soundlike? Given their pricing, I'd say it ought to be hot... though given my latest audition of similarly priced units, then again, maybe not quite as hot as I imagine... we'll see. Hopefully.

Thanks, everyone... really. it's a tremendous ehlp to me to have those personal experiences related.

thanks Fplanner, Dogfish, swampwalker... and John.. man I like that swampwalker handle... I keep thinking about the comic book character Swampthing".... well, anyhow... thanks... and John I've decided on one of the MIT ic'S BETWEEN PRE & AMP... it'll be one of the Magnums, not sure which.. probably the '2'... the shotgun 2 in there now is very good.

Psuedo balanced, or flat out & straight up balanced, I think regardless it's in the mix wether or not it'll work for my tastes. I'll just lug the amp with me. I'm fast getting to the notion (only took 30 yr.), it don't matter the science behind it. I'm not so arrogant as to 'need' a particular configuration inside, to be OK with what happens outside, but I do deeply appreciate the heads up on that aspect.

So that's where I'm at.. and for the time being, satisfied with what I've got now.. save for the sub and PRE TO AMP ic.

But things don't last forever. good or bad. Recalling another bit of wisdom I got here, having the 'additional' piece on site is a better way of making a good decision... so I may well end up with two pres... beats me. though my paths are far more defined now.. choices are clearer too. It's as always for me and some like me, simply a matter of time... and even that may shorten up a mite, should fortune smile in my direction.

Swampwalker... yeah, mostly. Legally, yes. Entirely, no. Can't drive anymore... except a riding mower, and a jet ski slowly...and only in open waters. haha. The PC does talk though.

downunder.. dead on. The dealer told me when I remarked about the overall lack of warmth, that Lou Jhonson said the CT line especially, is the "most neutral preamps we've ever made." .. and so much for the legendary CJ pres. A new path is taken and a revered one now gone. They have decided to cast their lot into the arena of neutrality. Along with countless others that intend to offer up similar sounding units. I've nothing against neutrality. Not at all. My tastes lean me towards an older sort of sonic embrace. Lush, rich, wet, and warm, with resolution detail and inpact enough to become involving... and as of late with my last little comparison shopping for happiness in the guise of getting another preamp, I found that simply with a different set of tubes, and a new IC from pre to amp.. I have all the above, save a touch more quickmness. that last item is not actually a good enough reason to drop 6 to 11K on another pre. That new set of NOS tubes has solidified things quite well. The upcoming MIT IC (renting the one I have now), is simply ridiculous. I'd never have tought a lesser level of IC, especially in between the pre & amp to be quite so good a match. though I do have another MIT in the system as well.. and the latest addition of some Sig 10 speaker wires has been a nice one too. I've actually been able to take off the grills from the JR's for the first time ever.

So in fact it would appear my complaints/desires for another level of performance have been realized at this point... and for way less than the cost of a new pre. Though one never knows what winds may blow their way. So long as it ain't just the need/desire to change for the sake of change, I'll be fine. thanks a lot for the input/insights... all of you have saved me tons of 'ducats'. and it would seem the answer to this thread, now, is the Thor. Mr. Marks product maintains the lush yet quickly nimble magic that sounds so appealing to me.

Well we've moved on now... for good or ill and for a time, the TA 1000 MK II is runing the show.

I do like the notion of the VAC blocks however. A lot... but i think I'm going to need a gun.

Well, thanks much for all the info. I surely do appreciate it as always.

Now, near a year later though not quite, the die seems cast. there really is no 'best' whatever the device. Certainly some have performance levels that are well above average, yet 'best' terminology is a misleading tag in an audio system as the integral word here is "system" which infers some degree of synergy of the whole of things.

OK. Good. When you hear that synergistic cohesion perform at a level that immediately upon hearing it you know the sound is one of those, "that's it.". sounds, why not then obtain the thing?

Consequently, my most recent audio epiphiany was hearing the thor TA 1000 and the Thor monos (30wpc) on the VR4 JRs... with Audience wires and a tube CDP. Apart from the amps, obtaining the Thor pre would put me quite close to that fascinating sound.

By all rights at this point an original Thor TA 1000 MK II should be delivered to me shortly.

My single concern was/is compatibility with my balanced only amp. Electrically? probably no. otherwise? We'll see.

Then there will be all the which wires? which tubes? Isoing? ...etc.

Just thought it only fair to show some closure, my sincerity, and my gratitude.

John
We're still in the same boat there. Just volume. the esthetics changed, there are less tubes, likely as I recall it not as great a degree of warmth or darkness in the sonic envelope, and there are two pieces now instead of one, to give me fits isolating. But no. No greater flexibility for me. it seemed just not in the cards this time 'round. So be it. I foresee a major step up in sonics though, and I’ll take that every time.

Flexibility is nice. Quite special. Looked forward to it. But the bottom line is what is "to me" that I can do? given a choice I feel I made the proper one. No less functionality and if it's half the results from the all Thor deal I heard, it will be a delightful change.

All accounts point to the thor TA 1000 MK II as being superior to the non MK II in all aspects. Given that and this one has the Gold inlay, knobs and such... the added improvements in speed, bass resolve and transparency of the mids was better by some good measure than that of the BAT VK5i, no matter what I did to it. I took some time doing a lot to it as well. But no dice. The TA 1000 is clearly on another level. Probably has something to do with it being more money, huh?

I did however try to do something in regard to a sideways step with added flexibility. I even auditioned (if you can call it an audition) locally of the Ayre K 5xe SS pre.

The dealer for Ayre in my town, (Audio Visions South) sells also wilson, ML, krell, etc. They were kind enough to let me listen to a grand total of two songs. Well almost two. The salesman halted the Gordon Goodwin track part way through as he said he had no more time. It took two hours for them to give me that much of a break. I had to make an appointment for this episode too. I sat patiently and waited for almost nothing. Wilson Sophias, Ayre 7 CDP, Ayre 400 wpc monos, and all Transparent wires.

Twelve minutes of music wasn't enough for me to decide. though I was asked to decide 3 times before they ever played a track off their CD. I had brought my own but they weren’t interested in me hearing familiar music I guess.

Lets put it this way. right now? My HT receiver as preamp to my BAT amp does a better job by far. That's only if you actually want to hear the soul of the music and have more than a two dimensional sound stage. Obviously Audio Visions South feels 10 or 12 minutes is enough for someone to make a $3,000 decision. I simply do not. They did me no justice, nor did they give the Ayre products they represent justice. Not even close. they did offer me $50 off on it, so I did get pretty excited by that. it was the poorest exibition of equipment and professionalism I've seen in over 30 years. A home audition was mentioned but cost $150 IF I didn't keep it. No mention of the time frame however. I would gues it would be a whole day though, given the length of the in store demo.

things always work themselves out. always. later that day, other Audiogone members pointed the thor out to me. i made contact eventually, and here we are. I'm way ahead quite soon, they got what they deserved from me which was nothing. though I do feel bad Ayre was so wrongly exibited. they deserve better I’m sure. Anyone deserves better.

Audiogone, by far and away, continues to out distance themselves from some of the established high end audio store fronts simply by providing a resource for those "GENUINELY" interested and sincere buyers who have long since become tired of the arrogance and elitist attitudes some ‘dealers’ display so commonly.

So many positives came from that debacle. I saw the Sophias for the first time. Found out what sort of value they constitute. Removed them from my short list of speakers. Transparent as well. So in all, there was indeed gain. I suspect I should now be owing that dealership a debt of gratitude, rather than disgrace. They saved me much time and lots of money in the long run. All in all an eventful week has passed.

Thanks John ...and thanks for the video of miles and John C. that was super.

I've thought about relating this incident to Ayre... though they directed me to this place and said many people have positive things to say about them on the warranty forms they submit.

I sold a pc to a member that is local. he picked it up today. He is far more well versed in what other high end audio dealers about the country are doing as he is a frequent flyer, so to speak, and agreed wholeheartedly with me as to the treatment he received from them as well. He was taken aback by this dealer’s incredible lack of a customer friendly stance.

The most fitting phrase is "They believe the world to be filled with diabetics, and feel they have the only insulin". Such a posture is indeed a poor one. A true shame.

I have to think as yourself that as so many other store fronts of high end audio are now attaining the bulk of their receipts for HT sales and installations, actions of this sort are surely contributory to 2 channels decline in popularity and likely demise.

It is ironic that such great designers and engineers as are the muscle and sinew of the industry have to allow skeletons such as these, to now and then become their sales structure.

I will give the dealership credit for one thing though, they didn’t try to move me off Ayre and onto another product line. I’ve spoken with some sellers (a far better term than dealer), that right off , have told me after I have specifically asked to hear a certain thing… “No, you don’t want that… you wan’t a xxxx”. the greatest power there is in the universe is 'mind reading'.

I’ve never been much good at that mind reading thing but apparently, once surrounded by magga buck audio gear on a daily basis, special powers are acquired… far beyond those of mortal men. Again, not privy to telepathy myself, I did have a vision prior to leaving the store. I saw them losing $3000 that day, and some other amounts down the road. Clear as a bell.

Gee. Maybe I do have some power. I have the one power they will find as their Achilles. The power of choice. As all consumers do. I think it trumps their’s.

The singular power, just that one special gift, required to obtain my money, and my continued business was humility. Too bad.

It was left off their short list. More's the pity.

John... you got a point there. Ego's a big deal with some folks in this hobby. A big deal. your point is quite valid though... if everything is on the square. I'd have loved to have tried out a thing which would have saved me a grand and some... for sure. i'd not do it now though. i'd feel way bad knowing I've already made a decision. sure wished I had known about the damn remote thingy sooner. I'd have taken a shot too. But I'm big on "Things always work out" so perhaps they did, huh? we'll see soon enough.

Photon46
Don't hold your breath. i was in there a couple years ago for a look see at a Linn int. When I saw it, and was told it needed special spkr wire connectors, and later found out the 75wpc were into 4 ohms vs 8. I declined. called back and said as much. During that deal they had some Revel studio 100s on clearance. $8K.. played it on the ayre gear then too. No dice for me. so they told me about the same thing you said. They were getting 3.6s in a couple weeks and to hear them before making a choice. I quit holding my breath before i got to the door. the Studios? they played them like they would blow up if played for more than 2 minutes. Apparently they've not made any changes in how they feel an audition should be done... I've had sneezes that took longer to finish.

Mrtennis

Now some year and change later, i sought herein to provide some closure as to the fact I wasn't wasting others' time, and tell all what I ultimately decided upon. That's all. to be sure during that time, I also learned much as to the objectivvity surrounding components. I ammended that misbegotten entry above.

But you are indeed correcct. Who's best is only answered by the buyer. The owner... and maybe not even then as more compromise went into the buying decision than was wanted for whatever reason (s). I apologize. Again. Eye of the beholder, and all that jazz.

The only pre I could not check out was the BAT. Also, had I not tried something different and found it to work beyond my expectations, and then sold my dear vk5i, I would not have put myself into a position to bet another either. I had to give myself a reason to "get off the dime" and do somethign. Taking action as is so appropriately espoused here, is indeed the best way to know. As my friend John says all the time... do the Audiogone "Buy & Try" shuffle. then, you know.

Well, you'll know some waht better... but I believe from experience, you'll only know for sure after doing the "mix and match" shuffle with wires on it too... and isoing... there is more to this deal than simple swapping of components in and out of ones' system to get the very best from them, as we have all seen. Everything makes a diff.

Truly, there is no 'best' there is only best for you. you gotta make that call. No one else Most times. I did buy the BAT gear only from other's opinions. they weren't a bad choice. Not at all, but I sure did a lot of other stuff to them afterwards.

I'll give it some thought, John. I hate to wind up getting a rep as a trouble maker or whistle blower. I think by and large the makers are aware who are their better bets. It shows in their orders of pieces from those self same makers. I tend to think the makers have resigned themselves to it. A necessary evil. Business is business. I'm unaware of any maker of high end audio that once a dealership is found out to be less than friendly, or high handed acting towards the consumer, or even those which are wildly unethical, that they would pull their line from them.

competition is great. Dealerships in high end don't see it that way. Instead of boone, it's bane in their eyes. they lay in wait for the consumer who will simply 'lay down' for them... or those who are either fearful or ignorant of the web. The dealers sure fear it too. Those uncompromising attitudes do hamstring earnings in fact. So be it. Word of mouth and the power of choice will spell out what the future holds for them.

The disadvantage that comes to you and I, is the increase in price and less availability. More sales, means more demand. Greater demand means greater production. Those steps equate to increases in profits. Profits allow for more funds being cast towards developments in design technology. Advances in technology will become more cost effective.

More production, means more employment. it also means more proliferation of the products in demand and therefore less cost per item produced. Sure would be nice if the $10,000 items were only $6,000... and the $6000 were $4000... and so forth. A higher level of standards would be had by more people. More people having a higher level of gear more reddily would induce more exchange. More word of mouth. More...

Instead of the now so escalating costs we endure as the rule. those spiraling costs of equipment, the separatist attitudes of the dealers, fuel the waning interests of exceptional audio and the industry itself. Higher prices suits less people. Less people is less people. That path leads quickly to an end as it proposes a built in, predestined finality.

So to echo the words of that ill fated soulful little wailer from Port Arthur Texas, "Get it while ya can"

John, Utopian? No. I'm from Tampa. Don't that make me a Tampan?.. In fact, I'm an idealist. it sucks but there you go. Optomistic pessamisim.

I saw that bit aobut the in home audition. When they make xlr? OK. For me, when they make remotes... but it's no matter now. I dun done it. The MK II should be shipped out today. So now I start out on a whole new journey. hopefully the BAT will work with the Thor. God I hope so.

I just figured it this way, "When you hear something that just knocks you out, it might be a good idea to have that thing instead of trying to resemble it with other stuff."

And, brother, it did knock me loopy... but only for the past three years... and I don't think it was set up as well as it could have been.

Mr. K, is onto something there. Hope against hope, it's likely going as he said. eg. Janis.

Figures. Now they tell me about the remote. Super.

Well OK. I got my story, and I'm sticking to it.

New gear stories, hmmmmmmm. those sorts of statements scare me. Just like in review mags. The reviewer just falls over a thing saying it ain't going back. Sure enough, a couple months later it's in his litany of gear.

Of course talking with some makers of that same gear about reviewers in general as I did the other day, asking why no press on your 150w monos? i was told mostly because getting it back from reviewers is like pulling hens' teeth anyway, and some want even greater 'acomodation discounts' than are offered if they choose to buy it. Also they don['t handle it usually with any great care so it gets a bit beat up.

Far more than one has related that same story to me. things lose some credibility IMO when someone offs an $8K piece for $2K it plain doesn't make sense to me.

it's all your's John, help yourself.

TA DA. The TA 1000 MK II is here, and it WORKS.

The subjective answer to this thread is forthcoming. I do admit from the begining of this thread to this time, some amount of learning has taken place.

What is "Best" has truly just one answer, and must be applied by the purchaser. Duifferent, better here or there in some respects? Those determinations are subjective as well... yet are more applicable. This 'inherent ambiguity' of decided levels in performance promotes interest and experience as its fallout.