I have Vandersteen Treo's. I believe I just sold them and I'll be getting the Quatro's. Why? The subs are built in and they have an 11 channel EQ. I have yet to hear any sub that sounds as good IRT musicality. They will shake the room. That said, he's also making a sub that matches with the 7 mk2's. It's not cheap, but it's special. Richard will tell you that if you want to move as much air as possibly, that you can just add a sub to each channel, including the surrounds.
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I personally love how Richard Vandersteen goes about making his subs. Both the WQ as well as his newer high end one that goes with the 7mkII's or any other higher end speaker you may be using. Matches so well with other top end full range speakers. |
Tim, that may sound best for you and that's awesome. We all have our passions in audio, but to make some of the statements you make are not correct. There is not scientific measurement to say any speaker or sub is the best way to do it. There are many ways to do things and listening is subjective as we are all built differently. That can't be refuted.
There are plenty of products in audio that test great, but sound like crap. Some do sound good to many folks and measure adequately. I rarely see products liked that measure poorly. From the looks of it, you can mention ten different high end subs and they all go about things differently. You like an array of subs, some else likes fewer or another design or Vandersteen's taking the signal off the main amp (my favorite). Size certainly does matter if you want to move air (that part is physics and isn't subjective).
Lot's goes into it and no matter how much data you may present and how passionate you are, it doesn't make you more correct than the folks who espouse REL or JL or Vandersteen or any of the numerous other subs. The irony is that you are pushing your subs, but you have turned off more than a couple of folks and I'm sure that's not your intent. Just invite folks to audition and make up their own minds. |
Tim, I agree with you on using multiple subs. The problem becomes that in order to do it, you MUST place them in exactly the correct positions. If you don't, you lose everything you are trying to accomplish. It also is very costly when you start using top quality subs. You can't get better sound using multiple subs if the subs you are using aren't the same quality as two great subs. Can't fix what's wrong by just adding more of the same (not talking about anyone's subs specifically).
In discussing this with a designer, you need a dedicated room typically to make this realistic. There is no affordable way to do multiple subs when you are talking about high end systems. You also need to keep in mind what main speakers you are augmenting when using subs. So many folks don't realize this. I think that's why I posted what I did. Again, i'm sure your subs are outstanding, but 95% of us can't put 4 or more subs in our rooms, especially where they must be placed. I've heard arrayed subs in show rooms in the past and loved what I heard. I specifically remember hearing them about 10 years ago in NYC at a high end store, but I hated the mains they ran them with, but it cleaned up the bass a great deal.
Yes, I like how Vandersteen runs his subs by taking the signal from the mains the way he does and crossing over where he does do the sound of the bass is consistent with the sound of the main speakers. I also like the idea of having a semi active speaker like the Quatro on up. If done properly, it also will relieve the main amp from having to run anything from 100 or so down and that helps the amps sound better as they aren't having to deal with the bass load which is very difficult for any amp. Lot's more dynamics current available for the mids which folks don't realize is where a ton is needed on transients. |
there really is no difference in this than there is for setting up speakers properly. It's all about perfect set up and using the best quality subs you can. The problem is that some folks will read what you post about how great it is and then assume they can use any sub and get great sound. This isn't how it works. You can not get an inferior sub to sound better than a great one because of this set up. You still need great sounding subs that can be set up like this.
I think it's awesome that you love your sub set up. I haven't hear the subs, but if you are getting 4 sub 1000 subs for 3k, I have to wonder if they will sound better than a pair of 1500 ea subs that are better quality (not all 1500 subs will be better quality, just making a blanket statement). My other point is that most folks I know well could never have 4 or more subs regardless of size (and size does matter big time) in their rooms. Life factors intervene as I posted above. Not debating the quality, just the cost, difficulty to set up perfectly and the ability to fit that many in their listening area (logistics). That's all. Not debating at all. |
Sounds like a plan Tim. As for using subs with the Quatros, there is no reason to do so. That's the whole idea of his 11 band EQ built into them. It's the same thing with his 7's. He had just come out with subs for folks who have to have more bass with the 7's. In order to get even more bass into the 7's cabinet you need to go external. Physics says in order to move more air, you need larger cones or even more drivers. I haven't hear the 7's with subs, but I will eventually. Just waiting on a dealer to get them. |
Tim, I won't be bringing in any subs once I get the Quatro's in the house and set up. What you also should keep in mind is that any of the powered Vandersteen's are set up for the best upper bass to treble response and soundstage. Yes, that's right on their site I believe. That said, dialing in the built in bass units using the EQ on each will give you probably 99% (always subjective) of what you would get by adding two more 2W subs and dialing them all in. The dealer is doing the set up for me as most do. They will use their lasers and tape measures, but they also have a special Vandertones disk they use to set them up for the bass. It's really easy to dial in your bass this way. All speakers are designed with omissions and have to be due to limitations set at price ranges or just due to materials available. That said, I've never heard of a current or former Vandersteen owner from Quatro up complain about the bass. I have a lot of friend who have standing wave problems, etc... get them in their room and be very very satisfied.
Again, would adding two more be better? Only if they match the speaker and are of the same design as the ones already in the room (in Vandersteen's case, using their 2W or better yet, his newest sub). |
What you completly fail to understand is that 99% of anyone, will not be able to use 2 other cabinets in their room, especially since they too have to be placed in specific positions based on your theory. It's not realistic. I"m happy that you have the ability to do it, but I'll take my Quatro's which sound better to me than anything under 30k. The bass is outstanding.
The other problem you may agree with, but gloss over is quality. Bass is by far the most expensive part of the equation and just because someone can afford two extra subs (if they have built in subs which most in the US don't), doesn't mean they can afford outstanding quality subs in order to get better bass. If inferior subs are used, then the bass will suffer much more than just using dual subs that are built in. That's too is reality. Doesn't matter how many boxes you use to smooth things out, if it's not top quality, it will sound like garbage.
I've never heard any aftermarket sub sound great with a Vandersteen than his own. That said it would still be an extra 5k I guess to get two more (that I can't fit into my room for many reasons). At that point, I'd much rather put that towards better source as I already have 99% of the great bass that my active speaker offers.
You can make as many posts as you want telling us how great 4 subs will sound and I agreed with you with the caveat that I post again in this thread. I'm thrilled that you love a specific set of subs. That's honestly awesome and what we all love this hobby. You can talk about what great quality the swarm subs are, but I'm highly skeptical that they would be up to the quality of most of the subs folks are talking about in this thread as cost is a factor, especially when building bass as it's just hard to do properly and very expensive.
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Tim, you can't say that we can't talk about something again, because you don't want to. That is a major part of my point. I agree that 4 subs is optimal. You said you were out after your last thread that was pretty long. Then you post again, so I guess you are still in?? Either way, it's not big deal.
Bottom line is that I have been asking a lot of my audiophile friends if they'd use 4 subs in their systems. Many have active Vandersteen's and they said they would't be able to fit them into the room due to many domestic reasons. If you have full control over your room and feel you need to spend the extra money, that's awesome. Most don't. Simple point and hard to argue against regardless of it sounding better.
Not even really disagreeing with you too much. Only on a few points. |
Tim, I know we are. Wish I could get another set of subs, but I doubt I"ll need to. :) |
It will sound awesome. No doubt. Hey the Treo's rocked and they weren't even the CT version and had not integrated subs. No way I'll add any more speakers to the room. Im' trying to get rid of some of the furniture I have built and have in the room, lol. |
Of course I will Tim. I will also set that up with Johnny at Audio Connection to see what it sounds like. |
