This forum is for the discussion of audio equipment, a mind share if you will of all differing opinions "related to audio". I am taking a stand against Carl Eber, you are rude and no one cares for your' bashing of individuals on this site. I am sick and tired of reading your attacks on people. Your comment to Mr. Butler of "Good luck with that, and go stick a firecracker in your auditory canal, dude.", was ignorant and immature. I stopped posting on this site because I grew tired of your antagonistic responses, I have simply ignored most of your rhetoric, but I will take it upon myself to plead with you to either SHUT UP! Or seriously think before you write. I apologize for this outburst to every other decent individual on this site, but Carl needs to go. I am sure you will have some repsonse which you will believe to be witty and nascent with intelligence. I am letting you know now I will not respond to it, my point has been made. Thanks, Mike |
Thank you Mike, I couldn't have said it better myself. This is not the place for personal attacks. I look forward to your posts on other topics. |
Mike, first you say he has to SHUT UP,the he has to THINK BEFORE HE WRITES, then you say he has to GO!!!! which one do you want him to do? Carl is a lot of fun on this site,I didn`t feel he hurt any body by his statement, he didn`t call names to anyone,he just likes to pick some times, no harm to any one!! I know he`ll get on me one day , so what!! if I want to, I`ll tell him to stuff it, he`s a BIG BOY he can take it. He has always said he was sorry if he hurt anyones FEELINGS, HE JUST HAVING SOME FUN. BE A BIG BOY AND LEAVE THE MAN ALONE!!!! Greg |
As i said earlier, Carl "pump's" blood, into this otherwise "dead" subject, and if you cannot take it, just "get-off the next station". Thank you! P.S. "...firecracker" was funny! |
Carl is full of verbal garbage, if he was half the man that Greg suggusts he would show some restraint. |
Thanks VERY MUCH for the support, Eldragon and Drumsgreg! You guys are very nice people, and astute audiophiles! Mikeam, please GET OVER this vendetta. I'm not out to try to keep people from posting on here (that WOULD be bad). Mike, I'll be more than happy to refrain from replying to any of your posts (positive or negative), if it will help you better express your thoughts on here. I'M ALL FOR A HIGH MINDED DISCUSSION OF ANY TOPIC RELATED TO AUDIO, so by all means, put something good on here. We'll all be better off for it. BMP-Martin: Sorry for letting you have it, but I honestly didn't feel any more rude than you seemed to be, and I was trying to inject humour (as usual). I don't see how you could take anything personally, BUT IF YOU DID, I sincerely apologize. SEEMS TO BE A RECURRING THEME FOR ME.........HOW'S THIS? I think a good topic for discussion would be for us to critique and discuss a magazine review we have read recently. If others have read it, it would be interesting to share our opinions on it. I think John Atkinson has had many interesting thoughts at the front of Stereophile recently. A discussion of Michael Fremer's reviews could get really interesting. Jonathan Scull is a tad pretentious, and seems to be wrong a lot, BUT HE USUALLY REVIEWS THE BEST EQUIPMENT. ANYWAY, JUST A SUGGESTION...I realize we all have less time to read reviews than we used to, perhaps... |
In the interest of moving on, I will say that when Carl sticks to the subject he is interesting and well informed, even if he is outspoken. But, big boys don't have to resort to insults to make their point. This only serves to undermine the spirit of this site and then the only thing thing pumped into the discussion is venom. I would welcome his input again if he can return to the subjects and refrain from unnecessary hostility. |
What do vinyl lovers do when they only like about half of the music on an LP? Do they suffer through the bad stuff or continually jump up and down to drop the stylus crashing into a new groove?-- yes, I'm serious. Any takers? I get a tremendous amount of pleasure from listening to my CD collection, and in fact just added a mere $600. CD Recorder. I can't believe the quality of CDs I've been making-- it's excellent. In fact, the recorded CDs actually seem crisper and more dynamic than the originals. I don't understand this except to say that the CD-R blanks are an extremely clean and transparent green color. |
Garfish, The crispness that you are noticing is probably a slight loss of bass in the transfer therefore the mids and treble are more noticable. I experience the same sort of thing when going from CD to Minidisk. Yes the quality is impressive. I had a recording studio for 10 years and it is amazing how inexpensive a decent recording is today when compared to ten years ago. |
This in response to garfish and his interest in what vinyl junkies do when they only like half the music on an L.P. My experiance is since I have gone from C.D.to vinyl even the weaker songs are more enjoyable.I feel with C.D. the weaker songs are much harder to enjoy than on vinyl.If it sounds awesome to begin with it makes weaker songs more interesting.But if te song is plain garbage yep gotta get up,but as I've said before "to get the best requires more work" Also,my stylus does not crash into the groove.It is a very smooth and quiet landing as a great analog front end allows.If any of the anti-vinyl guys had true experiance with vinyl these discussions wouldnt happen. |
See, didn`t I tell you he was sorry, now are you babys happy, can we now play ball again?.GREG |
Dear lord carl are you trying to make a career out of these postings? Do you ever get off the sight and actually listen to music? heh heh. Just kidding. Your certainly a diehard. Yeah carl could lighten up a bit but I think he's a good asset to the sight. When nobody else was there for a question he was with at least something to post. and usually something informative if not enlightening. You usually can't get this much devoted time from someone even if you pay them. Anyways I've been there and we all need to not be so strong headed. And carl could tone it down a bit but I appreciate his comments and the time he puts into his postings. Better to have him the way he is than not have him at all! |
I am pleased with the postings here. At least they are on the subject of music. Even a disagreeable posting at Audiogon beats the heck out of what's on my television in the front room. Carl has given me some hard words too, but we "fought" it over and we both survived it and now continue with our quest. I certainly understand the positions taken on all sides of these issues, from the strong personalities, format choices, equipment, and even set up. I am certain that a great deal of this conflict is because ALL OF YOU give a damn enough to fight for your belief in the music and the passion that accompanies it, and for that, I am most grateful. Remember, knowledge and experience are more valuable when they are shared. I hope everyone will try to make that experience easier and more fruitful. |
Thanks to Bmpnyc and David99 for your responses. I have nothing against vinyl, but have always been curious about this aspect. Actually, I've lived through 78s, 45s, and LPs, and to me CDs were "liberating". I've never had a good LP front end though. A good friend is into LPs, and has an excellent turntable set-up-- Well Tempered I believe. But when queried about what he actually listens to, he says 90% CD-- because of convenience and available music, and 10% vinyl because of sound quality. And thanks to Bmp re: CD recording character; it makes sense. Happy listening. |
I just caught up with the Carl-bashing - sorry I missed the fun. I don't want to be like Carl, but it does not stop me beginning to like the guy. I certainly enjoy Carl's posts and usually look for them and enjoy them. He does resort to rudeness when confronted by someone with an opposite opinion to his own - which does not aid the discussion much - but that's just Carl. Carl is obviously both very experienced and very passionate about this stuff, and adds a very entertaining and interesting dimension to this site. No censorship please! |
Indeed, Audiogon has asked me to censor myself, and I will certainly oblige. I apologize for responding too much to posts in this forum. I guess I've not gotten old enough to just lay down and take a whoopin every now and then. TO ALL THAT COMPLAINED, sorry you couldn't take the heat, and stayed in the kitchen. This has reinforced what I already knew: that when you really do want to voice your opinion, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"...at least on a private website... |
Carl, many of us in the kitchen know and follow kitchen safety insights (unspoken, or unwritten rules). It just a requirement as a group to produce and enjoy great food together. Saying we can't stand the heat in the kitchen shows that you don't understand the points people are writing to you. Once you start having people over in your kitchen or join others in their kitchen you then have a wonderful opportunity to share information and to enjoy kudos from others. That basic choice is yours, but this site is a shared kitchen. Everyone respects your right to your audio opinions and encourages you to share those. I find your opinions quite interesting and just take as your opinions. Strong personalization, attacking people, in discussions moves the discussion a way from the original discussion point and makes information sharing less than enjoyable. Please, I know you will, continue sharing your audio/music opinions and keep the personal defensive stuff to a minimum. This is a fun kitchen, and you add to it. Cheers, Gerrym5 |
Gerry, you say I don't know the rules. I apologize for not knowing them. Seems like there's only one that applies here: We go tell the teacher when we get upset with another kid's opinion, instead of sticking up for ourselves like adults. I'm tired of apologizing, so I won't post in the forum for a while. Rejoice! |
Hi Audiogang; Early in my professional career, a friend and mentor advised me (relative to my job); "be courteous, be professional, and be true to your convictions". That advice has served me well in private life as well, and seems germane to some of the discussion that has been going on relative to this topic-- definitely spirited. Please note that it's not my intent to lecture, and I've enjoyed the postings. Thanks. |
Carl, You still haven't gotten the point, we have no problem taking the heat or sticking up for ourselves, we just don't want someone burning down the house. We didn't complain about your opinion just your tasteless personal attacks. How about posting your opinions again without them. I vote we close the subject and move on to the interesting stuff and end this soap opera. |
Bmpnyc, I could not help but notice your comments about analog VS digital. I agree that digital will win in the end. But not for the reasons that you state. After all, there are more McDonald's than steak houses, and CD's are a perfect answer and a simple solution to those who want their appetite satisfied without hassle. However, I'll bet that you are more near my age than some of the young people who post here, and I'll also bet that you have never owned a decent LP playback system. You somehow think that because you graduated to digital that you are now on the cutting edge. Its comforting to think that you can achieve state of the art without having to spend your hard earned cash, but the digital solution is the ultimate (cheap) solution. I agree that if a person only has $150.00 for a playback that digital rules!! However this is a audiophile (high end) posting site as well, and there are those of us that don't limit our systems performance based on dollar amount. That is not to say that there are not wonderful systems at every dollar point, but I still contend that if you are after the ULTIMATE performance, analog is it. I even agree that digital will win over analog for the ultimate performance in the end, but it may be when I am too old to care or even worse, dead. A perfect analogy is the digital camera compared to (analog) film. I do photography for a living, and I work for some very large companies all over the world. The new night time viewing system in Cadillac is built by Raytheon. This week I had some very sensitive government equipment in my studio for photography by that same company (Raytheon). They build equipment that you can only imagine (for the military). Guess what format was specified for the job? Yep, horse and buggy, 4X5 film, just like M. Brady used in the Civil War days. Guess who requested it? Yep, on of the top defense contractors in the USA. My point is that the 4X5 camera is still the ultimate in resolution (unless you compare to 8X10 or 11X14 format and film), but digital cannot currently match this resolution, even with a new Leaf or Sinar back at $30,000.00. If you doubt this, I can give references for you to call and confirm. My issue is not if digital is enjoyable now, not that it will win (eventually) in the end in some years from now, but rather RIGHT NOW I WANT THE BEST THAT THERE IS, and it, like my $25,000.00 View camera, is another expensive antique format that has resolution beyond anything most people have ever experienced. |
I went looking for a CD player this weekend. I have needed the up grade for a while now and I decided to seek out the Wadia 850, the Meridian 805, and the Resolution Audio CD 50 (CD 50, Carl's suggestion). I couldn't find Meridian or CD 50(their old web page said they had it), but I did find a nice DCS up sampling setup. I ended up listening to two different systems in two different stores...both direct to amp. In the first store, I listened to a Levenson transport with the dcs up sampling gear, running into Krell, out to Wilson watt/puppy 6s. The resolution difference was clear...there was just more after upsampling to 24/192. The problem was it sounded bad...electronic air. I must admit that Paul Simon's Graceland isn't an acoustic album by any means, but I don't think that his naturally flat vocal delivery should have dull plastic sizzle to it either. Perhaps it was the the amps or speakers that I didn't like, but whatever it was, it was magnified when turned up to 24/192. I am going to take my Pass 3 to give the setup another chance. The next system I heard consisted of a Wadia 850 running into a CJ solid state, and out to Amati Homage speakers. What can I say, I am smiling as I type. The bass extention was not as great but who cares? The sound was focused, clear, open, smooth...blubber blubber blubber. BUT, upon putting in Cesaria Evora's Cafe Atlantico, I realized that it was not the real thing. I have heard her. The PA that her voice was coming through wasn't the best, but she never sounded tart...only creamy. I am going to take my amp to that store as well, probably some time next month, with the same two CDs. I have about 100 records but most of my stuff is 16/44 and that is why I went hunting for a cd player. I am still going to need to up grade my CD player, but I have a new interest in vinyl. I have to drive a long distance to audition anything good, so I'll keep you all posted in my little audio adventures. |
I'm back. 0008: It's good that you have "little adventures" like that. I'd lay odds that the "plastic effect" you heard primarily was from the recording. But that terrible Focal tweeter in the Wilsons just "magnified" it. The Krell certainly wouldn't help something like that turn "creamy" either, and neither would the upsampling. THE TWEETER IN THE SONUS FABERS IS THE BEST DOME TWEETER IN THE WORLD. I own a pair of these domes, and if there was ever a soft dome that could soundly beat ANY metal dome, this is it!..........To Albert: Is the physical size of each tiny "grain" of 4x5 film the same physical size as 6x7 centimeter format film? I've seen photos enlarged to 30 by 40 inches with this format, and the resolution is stunning. IMAX movie film is also this 6x7 size...talk about something to judge future TV formats by!! |
Oh, and about the CD50. I think they've stopped production on them for a while. I was just trying to get people to buy used ones, like I did. That's where the real value is, especially now. |
Hi Albert, interesting camera story, but CD technology has had 20 years to mature and unless i'm mistaken, digital cameras are only beginning to make their presence felt. I have been lisening to a VAT amp with a Theta transport, DCS upsampling and Avalon speakers lately not the $150 CD players you mentioned. I also listen to a Sony cdp-CA9ES 5 disc CD changer through a Denon AVR-5700 , Monitor Audio speakers with a REL sub, Sony DVD-S7700 for Home Theater and background music for dinner. I loathe the Sony CD player but it was the only one that remembers programming for 172 discs. Does anyone know of a better CD player that retains programming? or is it worth hot rodding it? After working in the best recording studios in New York for 27 years I think I have a good idea what a master tape sounds like. I have not had as much experience with Vinyl gear as you have and agree with your opinion that today analogue does achieve superior sound when played through very high end systems. I think that the upcoming universal players (CD,SACD,DVD-A,) have the potential to equal or better the high end analogue systems at one fifth the price. I have heard both the CD and LP of recording sessions that I have participated in and the CD resembled the original event more accurately on a variety of good systems. I am still new to this type of forum and may not be as familiar with as many components as Carl and I am relly enjoying hearing about the speakers and CD players he is familiar with. I would appreciate your help with cable and speaker upgrades in my post about the AVR 5700. |
Sorry about the typos. The amp is VAC renaissance 70 Conrad Johnson Premier 16LS preamp, DCS Delios and Purcell, Avalon Opus spkrs, Synergistic designer reference cable and Bybee power conditioner. |
Hi Bmpnyc; If you can live with a single disc player, The Sony XA7ES has a disc/track/delete program memory for 224 discs. The XA7 is an excellent stand alone CD player or transport-- Stereophile Class A since it was introduced. I recently saw that it had been discontinued, but they are common on the used market, and are built like a tank ($3000. MSRP). BTW I also have a CA9ES. I run it into a Sonic Frontiers Ultra Jitter Bug via toslink, then to a Muse Model 2 DAC-- it sounds excellent, as good as the XA7, and I still have the convenience of the carosel and delete track programming. The SF Jitter Bugs are also available pretty inexpensively (MSRP $700.) either used or from SF, and besides jitter reduction, they convert toslink to Coax. The UJB was Stereophile class A when introduced. The Theta TLC and Monarchy DIP do the same things the UJB does, are effective, and available. I use Cardas Lightening digital cables with good results-- fast and neutral. Happy Listening. |
Hi Garfish, Thanks for the info. Can the jitterbug go to the Denon and use its Burr/Brown DACs and still sound as good as your set up with the Muse DAC? Have you heard the Sony SACD yet? |
Hi again Bmp; The SF UJB has to be used between a transport (or CD player with digital out) and an outboard DAC. It has two inputs-- coax. and toslink, and one output-- coax. Its purpose(s) is to 1. reduce digital jitter (a timing distortion or error), and 2. to convert toslink to the more desireable and robust coaxial. As the Sony XA7 has coax out and the CA9 has toslink out, I can connect both to the SF UJB with a single coax cable to the DAC. Using this setup, I cannot tell the XA7 from the CA9. The UJB has a front panel switch to change from one CD player to the other. I like this system a lot. I like Burr Brown DACs too-- the Muse Model Two also uses them. No, I have not yet heard SACD, but I sure would like to-- my nearest dealer is a long way. It doesn't tempt me much yet though because of the limited number of titles available. Have you any experience with SACD? I'm beginning to research "upsampling" devices though to improve the quality of my large and growing CD collection. |
Hi again Bmp; I meant to ask you about your experience with the dCS upsampling units, ie is music quality significantly improved with these devices? I don't know if dCS is within reach of my budget, but if the improvement really is great-- well, you never know. Thanks. |
Hi Garfish and everyone else, I haven't had enough time with all this gear to be 100% certain of my evaluations but I will attempt a short preliminary report. WOW! The sound does not sound like the master in the playback room of a studio, it sounds like you are directly in the same room with the musicians. I know this is a bit general but the best I can say is that the energy of the performance is palpable. I'm not kidding. I know the feeling of playing with other musicians and how there is an unspoken communication that writers call interplay, but there is a certain kind of anticipation that is communicated from musician to musician that tells you what the other player is about to do and with the DCS gear I could actually anticipate the drummers next moves before they happened. I don't have the budget to buy at this level myself yet. A friend has given me access to his system and he is often not at home for extended periods of time. This is why I am looking forward to a universal player that will approach this level of quality between $2000 and $5000. I think this won't be happening for another year or two. As far as software availability, we'll see. One of these new formats will eventually be widely available. When I bought my first DVD player there were only a few DVDs' around. No one knew if the format would succeed. Now I go to Tower Video and rent thousands of titles for $2. I believe that SACD or DVD-A will be as successful. I can wait a while to let the first few generations work out the bugs. |
10-4 Bmp, and thanks-- you've further whetted my appetite. And I agree, I'd like to see an upsampling system in the $2000. to $5000. range that you mentioned. As for now, I'm tenetively interested in Bel Canto's DAC-1. They have a good reputation for high quality products, and I've heard nothing bad about their DAC-1-- but it's early. How about anyone else re: the Bel Canto DAC-1? |
Bmpnyc: Just curious, how often do you venture off Manhattan Island? (...a theory I have about people in the music industry who live there...) Anyway, sounds like you've done things I've only dreamed of (recording for so many years). Someday, I hope to do mine in LA, or a "ranch" in Marin County. What sort of recording do you do? 128 channel SSL console? Neve? What's your favorite omni mike for minimalist, natural/nonprocessed, audiophile-type recording? Neumann U47? |
In most studios there are Lexicon Reverbs and Yamaha reverbs,( some even had a plate in the ground or a feed to the hallways). When I bought the Yamaha DSPA-1 (recently sold) I recognized some of the DSPs' as the reverb settings from their $10,000 reverb units! Now you can buy a DSP-A1 fot $1200 and get better sound fields than many studios have. In the same way, I hope the expensive SACD format will become the everyday format in the near future. *Carl, I will try to listen to one of the high end turntables at Singer Sound in the next few weeks if it can be arranged. I saw one in their biggest room that cost $20,000.In that same room I listened to the JMLab Utopias $70,000, with two enormous Krell amps, $120,000 each and although it was impressive in some ways it did not move me at all. The two other people listening with me agreed that they were a bit dull! Can you imagine, over $300,000 worth of gear and it sounded boring. We stepped into the next room and put on Ricki Lee Jones' "Horses" album (DDD,..digital all the way) using almost the same system as described in the earlier post,(DCS, Delios, Purcell,Avalons, Conrad Johnson etc. This was expensive gear but it didn't require a mortgage just a big loan and it blew the doors off of that other system. I guess it takes some serious money to get up to the highest end but it is a lot of fun to try to get as close as possible to that benchmark on a budget, by choosing the right combination of equipment. I wish that I was nearby some of you and could participate in a listening session or two.* Vinyl guys, with the higher end systems you have does record wear present significant problems? |
The only wear I've dealt with is that done by bad and unclean styli and setup thru the years (of other people), on vintage LP's. Some say they can be brought back to good condition, but that's more hope than reality. Just a thought, but you should seek out Michael Fremer if you want to know about vinyl. He currently is the vinyl guy for Stereophile magazine. I think he lives in NYC. Read every "Analog Corner" and review he's done there over the past 5 years (before you try to meet him), and you'll know plenty. Sorry to hear about your poor health. Hope you feel better soon. BTW, I think YOU should get the prize for the longest backstory of something...heh heh. Kidding only. |
Carl, How many times can you play an LP before it shows signs of wear under the best circumstances? I remember them losing some of the higher frequencies after a few plays on a fairly decent rig. |
That's a very tough call, and would vary with the vinyl formulation. Maybe 10 or 15 times with a good hard vinyl surface, maybe 3 to 8 times with a soft one. It's almost imperceptable, so maybe the treble range above 15kHz loses about .2 dB with every 10 to 20 plays (past the first 10). IT VARIES MORE THAN THAT GOING FROM OUTER TO INNER GROOVE, USUALLY, from the surface velocity decrease. With the best tracking cartridges, this particular effect might be below audibility. And sometimes, it was compenstated for during that particular LP's manfacturing process. But there are far bigger transgressions than this, like faulty RIAA curve settings for the cutting amplifier. I use Gruv Glide every time I play a side usually, along with this five step process (others will disagree, and they're wrong...heh heh, kidding...sort of): Clean the stylus with the Benz brush; An older bottle of Last #4 on the stylus; then a newer one; then Record Research Lab #9; then Last #5. I try to let it dry for 30 seconds or more between each application. I do this for every record side played. If the cantilever suspension turns grey (dried out) after a year or two, I apply Armor All with the end of a toothpick, directly onto the rubber (carefully!). You have to do it upside down, so take the arm off first, or else take the cartridge off. Works great. |
Bmpnyc, great story about the industry. Do you know Russ Burger from JPR, the design group for Sony/CBS. He and I used to work together when I was a rep for a bunch of audio lines some years ago. He too ran a Recording studio, and even did some work for commercials as well. His experience with JPR landed him the job of keeping Woody Allen's NYC apartment quiet and isolated from the annoying sound of the nearby elevators. Russ absolutely hated CD, and the last time I spoke to him, he seemed to have not changed his mind. On to the other topic, your comments about digital imaging being new is true, compared to film. And true too, the CD is 20 years old. However, the CD format was set "in stone" 20 years ago and cannot be altered or there would be compatibility problems. And digital imaging can and does change frequently, as different systems are introduced. The good news is with digital cameras, at least the professional versions, is that it need only fit the existing "film" cameras in the area where normally the "old" film format goes. The primary ones are designed to fit professional cameras like I use, Hasselblad, and view formats like the Sinar 4X5 camera from Switzerland. Back to audio, the comment about listening to a turntable, I hope that it will be with a great cartridge, tonearm, and superior phono stage. If not, you still will not have heard analog at it's best. I have stated in other postings that I would love for digital to be in my system, and I was sincere. Perhaps things have changed drastically since three years ago when I had my big digital "shoot out". I had Theta, Krell, Number Cruncher, Wadia, Sonic Frontiers, Barclay, CRC, Audio Research to name a few. The tests went on for almost seven months, and end the end I was frustrated. I could not find a digital system that delivered the quality of resolution that my high end turntable did. By the way, if you are looking to test a turntable, go no lower than the big VPI or Basis. It would be Preferable to listen to a Walker or Clear Audio. |
Generally, audiophiles will not experience record wear problems when proper setups and good habits are in use. LPs can be played many times, but never the same cut within 24 hours. If you can hear the difference between 3, 8 and 15 times then poor setup and use habits are showing. I hear wear after played twice on Lacquers, which is very brittle surface and has virtually no recovery. Vinyl has excellent recovery and wear factors if properly used. Carl comments on proper cartridge/arm set up being more aurally perceptible are excellent advice. I differ on Carl's opinion on Armor All use. Forget the Armor All on the rubber. Armor All accelerates aging of all rubber compounds used on cartridges. This probably chasing a problem you should basically never experience given normal cartridge life spans in audiophile systems. Time would be better spent logging your favorite VTA on LPs and rechecking set ups. Gerrym5 |
Gerry, do you offer any imperical and credible evidence that Armor All accelorates the aging of the rubber compound in cantliver suspensions? And not just what somebody told you... |
Yes and No. I followed the development of a competitive automotive product "331" that specifically competes against Armor All. It was formulated by a chemical engineer eliminating all of the dehydrating chemicals used in Armor All. The president of this company is a tennis buddy of mine and he showed me test comparisons on various rubber compounds from tires to, hoses and small flex parts. Several hundred samples made up the tests. Each test had at least three new rubber samples of untreated, Armor All treated, and 331 treated all taken through an aging process. Armor All treated samples exhibited most aging and dehydration results much worst than the untreated samples. Simply put, it shortens rubber life. 331 slightly extended life while still creating much of the beautifying effects that Armor All produces when first applied. However, since 331 didn't win the first impression appearance tests it remains a very poor seller. Since that really why most people buy Armor All. This proved to be a sad investment cycle for my tennis buddy. Being in the market first, and producing the most pronounced visual immediate improvement wins the game, not something that is really better for the rubber. Again, you may feel that you are getting improvement, but seeing what I have seen leads me to conclude NEVER put Armor All on rubber, not even my tires on my M5. Like I said, my opinion is that the natural flexibility and memory life span of that rubber used in cartridges will exceed the normal audiophile's interest in the cartridge. I have about 10-15 cartridges going all the way back to Shure, Supex, Decca, Grado, Denon, Spectral, Clearaudio, Cardas, Koetsu on forward. I haven't experienced the problem you're describing. Your opinion is yours. I chosen a different process to use based on seeing some information and my own intuition. I am happy for you that you are seeing good results. Just as a follow up though, I'll look through a microscope at the rubber condition on some of my stored old cartridges when I get around to that. Gerrym5 |
Amazing response there Gerrym. Who would have thought anyone would have such personal experience regarding a maintenance product like Armor All. I won't use it again. Funny, I used to have some hand painted leather cushions on a 50s' chair. Occasionally I would put Armor All on to shine it a bit. Over the years it did show signs of drying. I don't know if this was due to my youthful lack of furniture maintenance expertise or the Armor All, but now I have my suspicions. Carl, I will eventually check out a state of the art high end vinyl rig in order to be a better participant, but I will remain a digital user and be happy that there are those of you unwilling to settle for anything but the best sound available, keeping some magazine writers on their toes and not letting big companies get away with too much hype. |
Another source of information for those of you interested, MUSE has web site started now- may want to check it out, there's a review of Muse product along with a interview with Muse Designer as well. www.MuseElectronics.com |
Gerry, I apologize for seeming like such an unevolved human to you here. As you say, your opinion and your experience are yours. (And do you even wash the M5 yourself, I doubt you do.) Saying things like "Armor All aged the rubber worse than no treatment at all", just sounds extremely silly to me, and defies logic and the experience of me and a multitude of other happy users of the product. I've used it for 14 years on plastics and rubber, and it always eliminated the aging process altogether. Zero. I feel that having a friend that had a competing product has surely scewed your objectivity here. Of course their testing would be designed to make their product seem superior. Whether or not the 331 actually was better in the long run, I don't know. You stating that it DID is not verifiable proof that it did, nor is it proof that Armor All ages rubber more quickly than using no treatment at all. IMHO, that's like saying "the sky isn't blue". TO BMPNYC: If you used Armor All on leather, that's a stupid thing to do! There are plenty of specialized leather oil treatments on the market that you should have known to use. And, I am not a proponet of solely listening to vinyl, I just feel that vinyl is where everyone's primary investment should be right now. I enjoy CD's on my CD50, and feel that it's as good or better than the best digital frontend Gerry or Albert has every owned or tried, period! And it's at least as good as the best non-upsampled red book source you've heard in the studio or in your buddie's homes, too. Better in many ways, because it doesn't go through a linestage, and doesn't control volume by harming the digital domain. It controls it with the best attenuators in the world. If Wadia made an upsampling all-in-one-player (CD/DVD-A) with their terrific slow roll off digital filter (and kept it from rolling off the top octave), and sold it for under $5000, they'd really have something! |
Carl, I wouldn't call spraying a dash of Armor All on a cushion stupid. At the time I wasn't certain it was leather and thought it was probably vinyl, besides at 20 years old when a girl was coming over any minute I would use just about anything to clean up a bit when rushing. I would love to buy a decent CD player now, but I feel that I can live with my Sony DVD-S7700 and my CDP-CA9 ES until multi- format SACD,DVD-A players become available. Do you think that Vibra Pods would help a bit? Have you heard Harmonic Technology cables? |
BMP, I've borrowed Harmonic Technology cables, and have them right now. They need to go back soon. Which ones are you curious about? You don't seem to be interested in my other suggestions, so I don't know why you'd think I knew about these cables. I'm not experienced with Vibra Pods, but I'm sure they'd help at least a little. I use AQ Little Feet, and they work great. And if you didn't know the chair was leather, that's different. |
For the record, I humble myself before Albert Porter, specifically regarding power cords for my power amp. He was right, and I was wrong FOR SURE! |
Hi Bmp; Vibrapods are a tremendous product, especially when placed under digital components and pre-amps. I liked them so much I put them under EVERYTHING except my big DNA-2DX amp which already has good vibration control. Clarity and dynamics improved across the whole music spectrum, including tighter bass. I'm even considering putting them under my rather stiff speaker cables. |
Carl, You should follow your "14 years of expereinece with using Armor All on plastics and rubber, and it always elimated the aging process (cleans and makes it shine too)altogether, Zero" and clean your vinyl collection with Armor All. Afterall it is only logical since vinyl is in the plastics family and Armor All is so good, as you say, for ruber and plastics. PS I have always enjoyed washing my cars although its far ranks below many other pleasures. Congrats on buying the Argenta @ Music Directs close out price. Lets read you thoughts about it after you play it. Is that before or after the Armor All application? Gerrym5 |
I have tried Vibrapods, but did not like them. Putting them under speakers yields good and bad effects, but overall they reduced musical enjoyment for me. I feel they would work best under speakers with noisy cabinets, since they reduce cabinet resonance at the expense of doppler effect distortions. Under CD players, preamps, power amps etc they had a similar effect to many of the other compliant footers around. At the price they are good, but in a top flight system I strongly recommend the various bladder products like seismic sinks. Their performance eclipses products like Vibrapods. If you do not want to pay so much then experiment with 12" or 14" inner tubes (with as little air in them as possible). I use seismic sinks under my electronics except for my monoblocks where the sheer weight and the difficulty of centering that weight meant a very expensive sink was required. As a result I used 12" inner tubes between two shelves. This performed hugely better than Vibrapods. |
