Running the Mundorf Supreme's 24/7 now for awhile.
At least 50+ hours now. |
The vintage inductor has what looks like waxed paper wrapped around the wires to stop vibration in the inductor.
Duelund does this same style but with air core. Duelund is all about getting the plastic out of the system. All the caps have no plastic. The inductors no plastic and I am sure the interconnects no plastic.
I am not going to spend the money to try it but would not at all be surprised to find that modern inductors do not sound as good. More bass due to lower resistance maybe but more natural sounds? I doubt it as they are wrapped in poly. The resistance difference from 12 guage Alpha and vintage is not that great.
Keep up with Mundorf's! The Mundorf's are wayyyyy out their league compared to vintage. The foil caps are MUCH faster smoother and sound way more real with much better timing. The Duelund's are just a modern version of the vintage and they are better. (in the tweeters anyway)
Undertow believe me this is not what I expected. I thought when the Mundorf's went in I was going to decide if they were good enough to not get Duelund. Never in my wildest esxpectation did I think they were not going to be as good as the vintage foil caps.
I am getting Duelund's just waiting for the call from partsconnextion. It is whether it is VSF or CAST that is the only choice.
Undertow it is plastic I am sure of it.
That is why Stereophile praised the 500c. That is a receiver for pete's sake, hardly the be all of any company's line. I think the plastic has more effect than anything. Can you not sense the disgust in the reviewers words when he was talking about vintage (receiver) from dead guys with ears being better than anything today at mega $. That is a huge stab at modern methods for sure. When you are a adverttising magazine and you say a comment like that about a company that is out of business (so they can not advertise) against your current companies you can bet he took heat for that. |
I don't know of any wax paper anything quite honestly.. I don't know if anybody even makes such a thing these days.. However from inductors I have used, I have gone really stupid once and used the 10 gauge like 10 lb inductors from northcreek custom made, very expensive.. Good no doubt but found in the end probably unnecessary.. Again a Good Series thick gauge like the 12 gauge on your woofers will be plenty to give you full response without power compression from any amp.. I have driven them with 8 watts and had monster subwoofer bass out of drivers driven with 12 gauge copper ribbons.. Very efficient, and yes the effect you are kinda looking for with Clearing up the bass, and having more "Efficient" or more "Effortless" sound will be apparent with the Alpha cores for sure on your woofers.. I believe spending something like 150 or more on inductors will just be again another point of diminishing returns.. Although I have no idea what size inductors are feeding your woofers, if they are anything at about 2.5 mH or under you should be able to get a pair somewhere into the 100 or 130 a pair range from alpha core..
And yes your tweeters etc
are in parallel not series which is why you will find little to no difference in most cases, go with a nice 16 or 14 gauge if you really want to get thick magnet wire inductor, air core.. Whoever you can find is fine.. I would not spend much more than 30 to 50 bucks a pair of inductors in that case. But for your woofers being with the series inductor directly feeding the power to the driver yep you want something good, you might be shocked at the extra balance you get to keep up with those mundorf circuits once you wake that woofer up and then you might find the midrange with the mundorf is not harsh or plastic at all once you put in an inductor on your woofer, it will blend and give you more low end with better results and you might save yourself from replacing the midrange circuit again, and just keep the duelunds on the Tweets
Good Luck |
Sorry Undertow
I did not see your post before mine.
Undertow it is a good case that any heavy guage good inductor will do as I understand the skin effect it is a high freq that would be effected and since a woofer is not that a good arguement can be made that the negative effect of poly would not matter.
If you have tried in the woofer than you are saying that the 12 gauge weighs more heavy than the negative effect of poly. Which I do believe you as that does make sense in the low freq.
I am going to wait to see what Chris says today and make the order. I do agree I would rather spend the $ on quality on the high freq cap as it is VERY noticeable there. |
Excuse me Undertow I meant to say of course the tweeter caps are in parallel.
Undertow have you done that test on inductors?
Waxed paper ones vs. poly covered ones?
or anyone?
Undertow a copy of Stereophile's article on the Fisher 500c. I am going to say likely most any vintage piece to different degrees. The vintage foil caps is SMOKING what Tempo Electric (Mundorf Supreme) says is the second best cap. I think all those dead guys with ears are great but most likely it is because they did not have poly caps then. Everyone used natural stuff because that is what they had.
That is why I think only the Duelund will be an improvement. My bigget fear is I would spend a lot (on an inductor) and not even notice it. (I hope I do!) My wife when she heard the Sonicap vs. vintage thought the Sonicaps were BROKEN! She could not believe the difference and had no idea which caps were in either speaker. Undertow I am not a vintage guy and my main stereo is as new as 2004 pre-amp and all what is known as "high end" and this is what I have found
1. Vintage int tube (smokes new big $ SS pre and amp)
2. Vintage speakers (smokes the '90's higher end new stuff)
3. Vintage foil cap (in the mid range) smokes high end poly caps.
Stereophile quote
"Forget everything you've read or imagined over the past 20 yearsvintage gear does not necessarily sound rolled-off, soft and woolly, or fuzzy. This stuff is as far from windup Victrola sound as HDTV is from 1950s black-and-white TV. It is serious high-end audio, and offers a bouquet of endless multilayered soundscapes, pinpoint and holographic images, startling frequency response, and exceptional pace, rhythm, and drive. It's what we look for in our hobby, and it's been here all along. I've invested many years chasing the best cutting-edge gear our industry offers, yet I've never been more satisfied with music and audio since finding a home in yesteryear with all those dead guys with ears".
What is the reason?
I think it is modern plastic cheap manufacturing yes but does horrible things to the sound. |
"Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?"
You are definitely mixing priorities up here.. First off guaranteed that a 12 gauge copper foil will probably trounce the wax 18 gauge or whatever it is in your woofer circuit from 1970... Caps, well Caps are in a different world over how an inductor might or might not sound.. Caps are a material that can effect the signal more, an inductor of a good copper material with tight tolerance value will work well from just about any manufacturer, and in the case of the woofer I truly believe its more about how thick you can go, in otherwords a 12 gauge etc... will get you better, tighter, cleaner, and even faster low frequencies in my opinion.. Not once has a good inductor shown a problem in a woofer.. Its all about the exact right value.. By the way alpha core in connecticut I think they are still in that state will sell you a single pair of exact custom value direct if its not on the shelf with other distributors, and they do not charge any kinda premium for them.. I will admit this, the Alpha cores are not as good in my opinion on hi frequencies or midranges necessarily, but the best I have heard on woofer circuits demanding high power copper conduction, and have used them with several klipsch speakers with un-real results, but your running a vintage pro driver that barely moves I believe with tight surround, so its hard to gauge how well or not it will increase your response on that driver, but I know it will work excellent..
And by the way this "Poly Plastic" sound you are supposedly pinpointing really should not show in any woofer really, your hearing it up in the mid probably 1000 hz and higher giving you a more compressed sound, this will not occur in your woofer, your over thinking it trust me. |
Thanks Undertow
I have had a chance to read your comments more now as we were out for the evening. You are right the tweeter inductor is in series. Even when talking to Chris at partsconnextion before he did not think parellal to be a very big deal. So I am getting nothing there.
Now back to the woofer inductor.
Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?
What weighs more heavy the thicker guage Alpha Air core with poly coating or the thinner guage with Iron and but no poly?
Undertow I expect the 12 gauge Alpha to be better than other smaller guage poly inductors but have you compared with waxed paper inductors? (even the vintage ones)
Excuse me for not sounding confident in the new products but these 30 year old vintage foil caps are kicking the crap out of one of the best Poly caps out there. I am concerned as to why? and it is not small differnence!
I am concerned with other brands of inductors. (other than Duelund) I sure do not want to spend anything on a part that is not better!
Is a 12 guage Alpha better than what I have? It has slightly lower resistance. But not much. .29ohms vintage and .23 for 12 guage Alpha.
Are inductors not sometimes 300ft long? Isn't 300ft of wire covered in poly a not good? I am sure the woofer circuit though is not as important as the tweeter being messed up by poly. (or in my case the mid range)
I am not going to try this one. If I get an inductor it will be Duelund or stick with the waxed paper vintage.
If the Mundorf Supreme is $120 for the mid range a speaker caps then the vintage should be worth $250 easy! I am running the system 24/7 on repeat to pile on the hours. |
|
Volleyguy
First off I would be shocked if your tweeter inductor is 18 gauge, probably not and its most likely a 20 gauge in that speaker.
Second you are way to concerned in the case of the inductors.. In the tweeter it should be in the circuit parallel... 16 gauge standard magnet wire types should be excellent, even 14 gauge, and you can get silly with getting solen perfect lays or erse which both are overkill and cost more than you need at about 20 bucks an inductor..
You can also get the copper ribbon Alpha core inductors in both 16 gauge and 14 gauge as well.. or even 12 gauge which would be pointless in your application.
The capacitor is far more what will do the most in your tweeter, and fact being you can probably switch between your old inductor and a new one and barely if at all tell the difference..
Your Woofer is a totally different story, you could put a duelund or a mundorf cheap M-cap or superior and the biggest difference will come from your inductor being in series in there, which the bigger the better, I suggest the copper ribbon from goertz. You want to go to duelund well thats your choice, however as for resistors.. I have now tested the Mundorf resistors, and the Mills top ones, the Mills are very good, the mundorfs a even bigger and cheaper, which do the same job.. From reading the Duelunds being silver and the graphite really is not a better resistor but much more "Bright" sounding material from the reviews I have found, and many have backed up and actually removed the duelunds due to the silver probably being the culprite in most tweeter circuits especically horns putting them a bit too much.
This is all in the Shades of Grey area my friend, and with your speaker being a basic horn from klipsch, I would not get into overly exotic resistors and inductors you will guaranteed not get anything but the point of diminishing returns spending another 100 bucks or something over getting the very premium mundorf resistors or mills, with good copper standard inductors.. Wax paper, poly, or PLATINUM coated is the last of your concern, you will just need exact value inductors for the most benefit, and again a 16 gauge on the tweeter with magnet wire or ribbon will be the same as anything else almost guaranteed, I have tried them trust me.. As for the woofer again thats where you want the money in the inductor in my experience. |
I did check on the much cheaper Mundorf copper foil air core but they use poly to coat the wire?
Would this not cause the same problems as it does with caps? and maybe the vintage might be better???
Can't afford to find that out.
The vintage use on the tweeter circuit air core what looks to be waxed paper wrapped and is likely the same as the cheaper Duelund except the Duelund is 12 guage and no doubt the Klipsch is 16 or 18 guage wire???
I wish someone could tell me the difference? other then heavier guage wire? and would going from 18/16 to 12 make that much or any in the tweeter circuit?
I know Klipsch iron core woofer inductors are .29ohms (according to Bob Crites)
This put there resistance about as low as 12 guage air core. So a 12 guage air core waxed paper would be better because of being air core and but would a 12 gauge air core poly be better???? What would weigh in importance no poly or the iron core? or heavier guage wire?
Is Duelund really a vintage company with more modern tolerances? Not that this is bad thing?
Foil caps made better. (same but lower vibration)
Inductors same as old ones but being air core thicker wire
and in the case of CAST more solid.
What about their resistors?
All this means there was some serious $ in an original Klipsch crossover at today's prices. |
Inductor help
I am checking the Klipsch inductors and they use a wax paper wrapped inductor for the tweeter that is air core (I guess) Would this not really be very similiar to the Duelund wax paper inductor.
What could be the differnce? Higher guage better wire likely. |
Final thoughts before ordering.
I have got back and forth to listening to Linn speakers same source and Linn with the Lp12. Klipsch with tubes and SS and digital and analog. Not sure why but on vintage my turntable does NOT sound very good at all. Likely poor phono stage.
I keep thinking I am going to wake up and realize what was I thinking. But time and time again the the foil caps vintage tube amp and the Klipsch sound better.
Even the much smaller amound of distortion through tube amps does not upset like SS distortion.
The Klipsch with vintage foil and Duelund VSF's sound so much more like being there.
Foil caps make the sound of real instruments and poly caps make the beat of the instruments but the mind says this is not real.
The distortion in foil caps does not bother one as much as poly distortion kind of like SS vs. tube distortion?
When listening to foil caps and 70% is sounding right (like real instruments) you listen to that and discount the 30%. With poly's you notice the distortion more and I think it is there is nowhere to hide in the music that sounds bang on. So the mind becomes fatigued. I can't listen to poly for long and have to turn it down or off.
My expectation on this is that likely the Duelund Aluminum VSF's (which I am not getting) still sound very real and likely beat any poly cap. The reason I say this is I think the vintage is aluminum and it sounds better in the midrange than Mundorf Supreme.
I had come down to three choices.
1. Duelund VSF's in the tweeters and vintage in the midrange. The Mundorf's were close to $120 delivered. So in my mind the used vintage foil in oil caps are a steal! They are worth more than Mundorf Supreme's except the being already old part. The vintage tweeter caps are just to noisy.
2. Duelund VSF in the mid's and tweeters. (this fixes all worn parts)
3. Duelund VSF and CAST (one each in the tweeter)
Duelund CAST inductor's as well. This one is some big $ and inductors don't wear like caps so if they do not sound better $1k of inductors is a lot of money to me! |
Stormen while your here I sure could use some advice on inductors. Are Duelund's that much better than vintage and do inductors make a huge difference?
I have to put the order in today. (a couple of hours)
I know the caps I want but inductors???? The old ones are iron core but wrapped in something to stop vibration
Thanks |
I use them, bang for the buck is through the roof.
Got this from Parts Connexion:
pcX has a made a massive buy of these resistors...we think so highly of them. All our most popular values will be stocked in great depth. As as result,spcX was able to get a great price - and those savings are being passed on to you, our valued customers !
The "most popular/common" resistor values will be $14.95 USD each
Seems like a stellar deal. |
Dgarretson
I have heard (but not tried) that they are a no brainer resistor and very good. |
Did anyone try Duelund graphite resistors in their xover? These look interesting. |
One thing is the thread will be coming to an end soon as once this order is filled I am stuck good or bad. |
Could really use some help guys.
I am really thrilled with the sound of foil caps but do not really understand what the design differnce is? Why do they sound different?
Poly caps have plates and the electricity jumps from one side to the other through the dielectric. Does the signal in the foil cap do the same?
An Inductor is a continous winding of copper that blocks high freq by the skin effect? Therefore is the quality of everyone's inductors closer than caps? To me the difference in caps is HUGE. Is it the same for inductors? or is Alpha Core's inductors, Mundorf's Inductors, Duelund's inductors very different and in what way? and why?
Is the coating on the copper wire the reason?
Since my order was made before the price increase Duelund is allowing me to add to that order to complete my crossover. But this is a one shot deal meaning whatever I order that is it and any new orders are at the new price.
So Duelund's raised there prices a lot. So this is a one shot deal for me and has to be done on Monday.
So any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
I am almost certain to get all that is needed and am going to try the CAST tweeter caps and CAST inductor and VSF midrange all x two.
This means errors are 2x as costly if they do not improve sound. No ordering one part at a time and seeing. One big $ guess on Monday. Excited but somewhat nervous and really trying to understand what does matter. Any help would be appreciated. |
Ait
This is a quote from a Linn website with a well respected guy there listing his best upgrades ever.
Those 5140's are my speakers and that Klout is my amp.
He has that upgrade listed BELOW going from tri-wired to quin wiring on the speakers. That is not a big jump to me?????
(from Linn website)
What are your best ever upgrades?
Best upgrades
1. Axis to Sondek LP12 - Axis, Basik Plus, AT-OC5 to black LP12 Circus, Trampolin 1, Lingo 1, Japanese Akito, K18 Mk.1 with Mk.2 stylus replacement.
2. Ikemi to Sondek CD12
3. Klout aktiv AV5140s to mono-Klout tri-wired Akurate 242
4. Keel
5. tri-wired to quin-wired Akurate 242 (you just have to do this!).
6. CD12 to Klimax DS
7. Intek to pre/power amp (2nd hand Naim 62/140, ahem).
8. T.Kable (hear all of what your LP12 is actually extracting from the record).
9. AV5140s mono-Klout to 3 Klout aktiv AV5140s
10. Kan II (on K2 stands) to AV5140
11. Naim NAP 140 to Klout
12. Trampolin Mk.1 (a naturalness of timing I've not heard from anything else).
13. Japanese Akito to Ekos Mk.2 |
Ait
Yes the thread has been wayyyy longer than I ever thought it would be myself.
Is your active system Linn? or another kind?
That was/is the alternative as I own an all Linn system and only need one more amp and aktiv cards to be passive crossover free.
Linn has maintained all along that aktiv crossover and more amps is cheaper than high quality passive. (like Duelund level) It may be cheaper on the used market. New Linn amps are not cheap either.
G_24
That has been an issue I have wondered as well is a very good passive better then aktiv? Aktiv has a circuit board and the effect of those components on the sound right?
Linn does talk about there new boards being better (which they may be) but that indicates weakness in the begining.
Duelund does seem to be signing up quite a few speaker companies to their list.
I am thinking of wiring a "A" network this weekend, which is less parts again. (one less inductor and one less tweeter cap) So somewhat less cost.
Sorry for the length of this thread but when I looked at doing any of the recommended choices people thought, none of them would have had me very happy.
My choices were
1. Sonicaps
2. Mundorf Supreme
3. Mundorf SIO (which is the one I thought I wanted without hearing ANY of the three I guess I like the oil idea)
I am glad I did not do any of the three to be honest as they all were downgrades in some way and some by a lot in my opinion.
What was strange is there were people who would say any of those are much better than the originals?
In the midrange the best cap I have heard so far is STILL the vintage. Duelunds are coming (now that owner is back from honeymoon) and I do hope they are better. (I "think" they will be)
This rebuild proved to be not as quick or as simple as I thought but I have learned a lot.
I thought I did owe it to the Klipsch though as for almost 30 years I have not wanted for anyone's speakers. How many people do we know who are always changing speakers and at great cost.
I do want to compare this system when done to a fully loaded Linn aktiv with their top speakers, just to see. Even with the Duelund (expensive parts!) I will still have chump change into this compared to a system like that. I do know this system smokes my current Linn passive system by a MASSIVE margin.
One thing you do not have with this is the look factor! |
Volleyguy does love his Klipsch Lascala speakers and just like so many of us who enjoy our speakers as well and want to maximize their performance, I have enjoyed reading these escapades. I don't believe that the very best speakers are either crossoverless or active. There are so many wonderful manufacturers of speakers that use crossovers and so these issues should be addressed. Does it always mean that if you have less then it is absolutely better? |
How about this:
I have been reading this thread for weeks (or is it months)and have had the same thought the entire time - the BEST cap is no cap.
Volleyguy, if you are this sensitive to caps, why not go to a single-driver system, or a multidriver, multiamp, electronic crossover system? I myself never heard real music in my home until I heard a high-end system with no passive crossover at all, with silver wire all the way to the voice coil. Even if you don't like the no-crossover sound, compared to the price of a system full of Duelunds, you could put together an impressive active x-over system. |
I am getting a handle on the Mundorf vs. vintage.
Vintage/Duelund sounds MUCH more real. When listening to the Mundorf's there is a tension through the shoulders. The mind trying to figure out what they are playing. It feels like going down stairs on your bum. You want to go turn the stereo down as it is very tiring.
With the vintage/Duelund it gets the music right much more often and when it doesn't sound right for some reason not offensive.
It has been an expensive lesson $250 in Mundorf caps and $100 in Sonicaps that I have no use for but will sell for something.
Foil caps simply sound like music and poly's sound like a stereo.
You can feel the whole body relax when foils are in and you want to listen to music. Now I understand the 30yr fascination with these speakers and NOT all Klipsch as I owned heresy II's (and did not like at all, cheap caps no doubt) Even Khorns after they switched off AA's did not sound so good to me either.
Undertow you are right that Duelund is expensive but at least I feel good about spending the money.
If I was on a tight budget (and who isn't) I would change tweeter caps (to Duelund) and use vintage foil in oil cap for the midrange. Vintage foil mid range is likely better than ANY (in my mind) Poly cap.
Steen's right put those things back in computers or non audio areas.
A real bargain on e-bay would be someone's old Klipsch "AA" crossover and just change the tweeter caps. Sound would be MUCH better than new and wayyyyyy better than any poly cap I have heard. |
Hifisoundguy
/Nope once again :-) They look interesting.. Flat body much like the duelunds. |
Has anyone tried Penta Labs Teflon caps yet? http://www.customelec.com |
Duelunds vs. Clarity cap MR size for size.. Well I know you can get a Clarity MR for about 60 bucks in 1 uF and a Duelund is somewhre in the 120 to 135 region.. So yep half the price of Duelund.. But double what a Mundorf silver would cost I guess.. As for larger sizes like you need on your speakers.. Well a Clarity MR 10 uF is something like 260 each
. But a Duelund I am sure is in the 500 each range.. So there you go. I would not go to such sizes in any cap if not necessary, I have speakers that only require about a 6 uF cap tops, and my components are in the .22 uF to 1 uF range so no need to get silly on extreme cost large values for me as it might be for others.. And yes I was in fact using 100% tube, not totally vintage, they are newer components but have vintage sound along with the clarity of newer components and some better parts.. However I am still using a fully modified custom Tube PReamp and phono, I did now put in some Pure Class A Solid state mono blocks which are the only so far to match up well to the tube S.E.T sound of my other amps in my system. |
Undertow I do have a friend who is going to come over when done to hear the Duelund's and he is also a Khorn owner who wants to know.
I have already asked him to post on here his thoughts.
I feel it is good to have more than 2 or three vintage Klipsch owners impressions. |
I can't wait to hear your impression of Duelund's.
Do you have any all vintage tube amps as well? I am not sure what the effect will be of them if there is poly in the system?
What is the price comparison from them to Clarity?
Duelund to me is just a known effect to me Clarity is unknown (barring what you have said) but I am getting strong feelings on NO poly caps.
This doing the crossover rebuild to me has been excellent.
It has totally changed my sense of what matters and what does not.
Doing this changed my whole thoughts on audio. |
I get what your saying.. But I think you just have not tried the right caps yet, but of course you can stack 1000 dollars worth of duelunds and get your desired effect, just trying to save you a little, in the midrange I would be shocked if the MR's did not match up 99% to what you hear from the duelunds... I have not used the MR in speakers, but in a much more touchy location in my system anyway, nothing worked better, I will have the duelunds going into my horns hopefully in the next 2 weeks, they had to be custom ordered in my size by Parts connextion. Again I would have easily stuck with the MR's knowing they will probably do as well in this application, however they don't make the size exactly as duelund will in this case. |
Undertow I do believe that the Clarity is very good. I just if possible do want to stick with Duelund.
There is something with the poly caps I have tested anyway that is somehow fake? I am not sure what it is. As soon as say the Sax's breaks up the mind goes, not real? With poly caps there is sounds but the mind does not say Wow that is clearly a (whatever) I have to try and figure it out.
In one of the Beatles songs on the vintage/Duelund you can hear the tri-angle no problem and "know" that is what they are playing. You can feel the energy of it as well. That song is Hey Jude and on the Mundorf's it is really pathetic really. Almost not even the same song.
With Poly caps there is a sterilization of the senses. The Mundorf's although quiet are still rough sounding. They reduce the sound to beat not instruments.
Foil caps can not all the time make it so real but they can some of the time make it uncanny real. The poly's are never doing that.
I am in the rough spot now where each cap reveals (vintage/Mundorf) the others flaws and you are happy with neither.
I would chose the vintage though more noise and real instruments beats less noise and fake sounding.
What causes this? Undertow do the Clarity caps make instruments sound real?
Here is another guy who thinks the foil types are much better than poly. Although I would not say "bright" is the exact right word. "Fake" would be my discription and this is only on direct comparison can one tell.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1222484923
Undertow if I was to try another cap it would have to be of similiar design to Duelund a stack foil or foil cap of some kind.
I feel a little burned right now and frustrated. The Mundorf's would have been hammered by the vintage when they were new. (noise was a lot less) |
Volleyguy
Again the Clarity MR is super fast, linear, balanced, and simply the most perfect cap I have heard yet.. I have now tested them being in the main output caps vs. the several above into a rather raw and harsh horn system between me and a friend of mines reference series.. These are an excellent Zero bad effect cap. however they will not cover anything up..
So bottom line, Good silent components are needed, the MR will make every noise come to life, they are super transparent so if you got hiss or whatever these will just let it right thru true to the signal. These are far better than any of the mundorfs I have tried so mundorf is at best for a good tweeter, or midrange circuit, they are not the best in Bass for a full range signal or woofer in my opinion. Silvers are not anyway, maybe the standard supremes are better in bass as you seem to claim, but nothing has touched the MR in lower freq's as of yet minus the Jantzens being very close, but not nearly as clean and fast sounding of a cap..
The Sonicap platinums so far get trounced by the MR as well, which is somewhere between the V-Caps and the MR, the MR its just invisible and has control over the helium highs better than any of the other caps. Meaning ZERO fatigue. I would assume this is similar to the Duelund control in that respect. |
After 10 hours the Mundorf's lose crazy bass.
I find the Mundorf quiet on noise level and did like that combo in the tweeter for awhile with the Duelund.
This could get interesting with the mix of the Russian teflons coming. Will that add a bit of needed speed and liveliness?
Interesting as to how different caps break in differently.
Duelund a bit edgy out of the box but brought instruments to life.
Mundorf boomy (IMO) harsh and grainy not a pretty picture at first. Showing some promise now not neary so bad. |
Maybe a little humiliation here is needed.
I put back in the Mundorf Supreme's for more burn in.
I also reduced balance controls to flat from +2 on bass. The reduced noise allows this.
This tuning speakers is not easy. After listening to the vintage (mid range caps) again they started to sound noisy and that started to bug me. So there will no no original caps left. They are worn out for sure and too noisy.
I now consider the Mundorf Supreme's a horizontal move and with break in this should improve as there is only a few hours on them. |
Undertow
How does Clarity with th MR address the speed difference of poly caps?
I have hooked back up the Lp12 into the system now. Last time I had a hum this time not???? Don't know why maybe not grounded as weel before.
But the phono section of the vintage amp does not seem to be so good. Is this normal? In SS there is a big benefit to vinyl is that not the case with tubes so much? Or do I need a phono stage? |
Volleyguy
You answered your own question... If you believe in the microphonics created by the inside of the cap elements effecting sound, once again Clarity Cap MR seems to have made a BIG difference and effective sonic benefit from this. They are brand new to the market, and of course will take a while to gain some steam, but I got a feeling these will do mostly all of this including vintage sound for the best pricing now after experiencing them in a critical location vs. several of the other caps we are talking about that I have owned here. |
HiFisoundguy I had seen those ones too did not know they were out of business?
What makes foil caps so expensive to make? I know they say they are hand made at Duelund and of course that costs. But why do they have to be hand made?
If labour is the main costs I am surprised there are not Chinese knock-offs? Or are there?
I did notice on putting back in the vintage caps that the noise was slightly higher than Mundorf. (but I did know that before) I have wondered about what can be done to them to quiet midrange vintage caps down? (tweeter caps are just to far off Duelund) Could they be dipped in something? Would that work? I did go up and flick the midcaps to see if I could hear some vibration distortion and could not. So is the higher noise level not caused by external factors but internal?
On the upside foil caps are much more musical with nothing sounding out of whack. The (very short hour Mundorfs) tend to exaggerate sounds of instruments and of course sound harsh and slow. |
Hifisoundguy
Nope. And I think they already went right back out of business even though that ad is from 2007 that you see in your link, from my understanding with some being sold off in bulk to whoever will use them.. I remember something about counterpoint using these exact caps for years and all at some point within a few years would many times just fail and need to be replaced, hence the guy that was counterpoint started that altavista site or whatever to actually do upgrades and start removing all these. |
Could these new VTV silver foil in oil caps be the new king of caps from Vacuum Tube Valley?.... http://www.vacuumtube.com/VTV%20Ultratonecaps.htm |
Tonight I am going to pull out the Mundorf and do a burn in on a lamp.
This will take the caps up in hours without having them in the system for 400 hours!
I see why guys do things to burn caps in. If you don't like them 400 hours is an eternity! |
I prefer to not sound like I am going nuts but maybe that is what it sounds like.
You may be right Undertow on the Clarity being the best for the $. There is a difference in Poly's no doubt.
Sound of Supreme's
They do give the system more bass.
They are slightly slower. (than vintage)
They have less noise than vintage.
Effects on "A Day in the Life" Beatles (+2 on bass tone controls you gotta love 'em)
With the vintage caps the song has wonderful balance and is beautiful. Ringo is drumming is his own space and Paul is playing bass to the right everything in balance orchestra behind. (until the end when it is brought forward) There is a time when John voice is made to float.
The Mundorf Supreme's shift tonal balance to the bass. The balance of the song is out of whack. (paul now dominates) Ringo's druming is slower. There is not even close to as much front to back in the sound stage. Everything is more etched and harder sounding. The sound is also more aggressive. The Supreme's are a aggressive dynamic cap. Maybe that is why some preferred the Sonicaps and called them more neutral. Kind of like fake dynamics. Like a loudness switch.
The vintage/Dueland paints a beauty and Mundorf almost attacks you. I guess I can see why some like Sonicaps better this would get tiring after awhile and not sound natural. |
I have tried the Clarity MR by the way... So I did report back a few posts back. |
Volleyguy
I would almost give you my own personal money back guarantee on this one.. However I have not heard the MR in every application, but from what I can tell with educated guess, and ears on how most of these caps react, the MR is indeed a very different and special cap, and for the money can not be matched that much I can tell you. Hey if your already going nuts on spending what you have in caps, this is really the final stop for you anyway if you are really looking for that next level, that or the V-Caps which I don't suggest and still cost like 4 times the price of the Claritys and don't even make the larger values! |
Undertow I will let you try that one and report back.
I have been burned enough. Even though the Duelund was very expensive it was at least better. So no regrets! Spending $120 on caps for one speaker midrange is not a big deal but when it is not as good as what you had then that seems expensive.
It is not just my crossover caps but when the vintage amp (with only one poly) hammered my much, much more expensive pre-amp (2003 or 04) and amp that was it for me.
Been a very valuable lesson to me. I used to lust after a Linn Kontrol and Klimax. (at crazy money) Not any more!
It is going to be vintage tube and foil caps in the crossover and Duelund when I can't get vintage or really want to spend the $ on something important.
I am already looking at how to structure my system as I will need one or two working vintage amps and parts to keep them going as I do not believe we will ever go back to foil caps on mass.
I hope the Clarity does solve the weakness of poly caps, but to be honest I have my doubts. Even if one does not buy Duelund's I think it is great/sad that they have exposed current methods as not very good. |
Or buy the clarity cap MR's... They beat them all from what I have heard, they are poly |
The hours in this breakin are NOT going to be as fun as with the Duelund in the tweeters. That was very quickly a revalation and that provided huge enjoyment. This is like driving into the ditch and hoping you come out! (breakin)
It has cost me money but may save in the end as I will likely never buy another new amp if it has any poly caps in it. I will for sure have to hear it in my system. No more new speakers either with poly.
I will likely never buy another poly cap either. Flawed by design???
I think Mundorf realises this and that is why they have added oil to their's. Trying to get the best of both world's the cheap production costs of poly and liquid sound of oil. |
Sound is slower for sure and no even close to as "life" like.
Funny that the tweeters have gotten rougher sounding? The super naturalness of the speakers is gone!
Right now I am very disapointed. I hope they break in better than they sound now.
Sound is hard brittle and broke up even in the highs and what's worst of all fake. The sensational realness is gone.
The Mundorf's are not much smoother than Sonicaps in the mid range (hench the Tony Gee rating of 9) but they are much more dynamic. But if it does not improve (and HUGE) I would put the vintage foil back in for sure without a doubt.
This might make some vintage Klipsch "AA" foil caps a bargain used if you can find a decent one. They go cheap on e-bay. |
This is first few moments of impression of Mundorf Supreme in midrange (still Duelund in tweeters)
A little rougher in the midrange then the vintage caps. Dynamics are very close not like the change to Sonicaps. (which were MUCH less)
The mid range drone has not went away as much as expected.
Thinner then vintage so far.
Highs are not as good after going through the Supreme's.
Overall a fairly large step down from vintage in "realness". This of course is wayyy to soon to make these comments as permanent. More of a thing for me to look back on. Sound is much more grainy compared to the vintage foil caps.
They seem somewhat slower although nowhere near as slow as Sonicaps.
In the tweeter caps I thought any of the Mundorf Supreme's Mundorf Silver in Oil or Duelund's were a step up right off the bat.
Not so in the midrange? I am also not hearing the amazing noise reduction? |
Mundorf Supreme caps are in.
I will be installing tonight. Dynamics you can tell right away but it will take time to of course fully break in.
I want to get acquainted with them before Duelund's come in to understand the difference. |
Undertow
You could be right as Bryston was another horrible match to Klipsch as well. I have had Linn's lower line of amps and they were softer.
I am still in shock with the vintage tube. I put it back in this weekend. The caps will be here today or tomorrow and that may be part of the problem as quick foil caps that are worn distort. With SS (at least my SS) it may match up better with the slower poly (Mundorf) caps. Will know very soon. |
It would seem that the Duelund would have more effect with solid state since it breaks up the harder edged sound.. So my guess is simply you have a bad match of a SS amp for Klipsch, which is very easy to do
Use a Mcintosh or Monarchy audio SS Class A amp and you will hear the difference, at least feeding the SS with a Tube preamp is almost mandatory for Klipsch or any horns in general. |
