Halcro nice system.
The gentleman I bought my LP12 from bought a Raven as well. Working well for you? What did you have before?
The gentleman I bought my LP12 from bought a Raven as well. Working well for you? What did you have before?
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
3,012 responses Add your response
Have the Duelund's in VSF in midrange and the Linn Klout/Kairn hooked up. Disregard any negative about Duelund in the midrange. It sounds very, very good now. I am wondering if something wasn't going on the vintage amp before it blew up. Also I need the Duelund mid caps now anyway as the modern amp hates the vintage cap. (sounds awful) Also the LP12 destroys the CD player as it should with the SS gear and Duelund caps in the crossovers. Halcro, Stormen I would like to hear what you are running types of speakers and tube amps vintage, modern or SS. Yes we should have the Duelund club. I know my non Duelund speakers sit disconnected from any amp and will either be sold or upgraded. I can hear the poor quality caps of those speakers and can't stand it! I know I still prefer the vintage amp for the ultimate in realism. (with the Duelund's of course) Have you guys found all natural foil systems to be the best? I find one plastic cap in the crossover and you do not get the full Duelund effect and even the SS amp is not allowing the Duleund's to do quite all they can. I would really like to hear what you guys have found. It is a much better thread for others to hear how to max out these caps. |
Everything running without a glitch until Duelund went into the midrange. I went back to vintage and it clearly sounded better with the CD player. Just switched to the Lp12 and then going to put back in the Duelund. I know my caps are bad (with out a doubt) but can not understand why a worn out vintage cap sounds better with the Karik in the midrange. I THINK it is just combo of the Duelund revealing the weak source and sounding digital. This has confused me all along as my Lp12 has not sounded as good as the Karik and nobody ever feels that way. I once thought of just selling the Karik and not even having any digital it was just so far behind. Still experimenting. Ideally I can get things back to the Kairn/Klout with the Lp12. I have all my money in the Lp12 and can not understand why things went bad. (following that Linn theory of spend all your money on the source) Holy Crap! To make matters worse the vintage amp just blew up!!!! Scared the crap out of me! Smoke rolling up by the transformers. Thank Goodness I was just sitting here. Could have burn't the house down!!! Smoke rolling up out of the transformer and power output tube area. Maybe I was playing with fire running an antique 24/7. Well actually I was! Any idea of what could cause it? I think the phono stage has a defect or maybe a short and caused it to short out. It seemed to make funny sounds on the phono stage? It happened right when writing this. |
Break in Hey Jude Starting to open up (CAST) I can easily tell when they are playing the the tri-angle or when Ringo hits the crash cymbal and the tambourine is being played. You can hear the individual cymbals of the tambourine. I could hear the tri-angle before but could not hear the tambourine's cymbals. It's actually crazy the detail. I need a better front end digital. |
Sherod I have VSF for the mids and a set of CAST for the tweeters only. It is not that I am unhappy with the VSF in the midrange. It is likely as simple as the VSF's revealing the weak source. I suspect it is the slower vintage cap going through oil smoothing out the digital stair step sound. I am running 24/7 for break in. (don't want to pile the hours on cartridge) Part of the reason for this is I did lots of reading on caps (tweaks) and guys would say they liked or did not like but I never knew what kind of improvement it meant for the buck. The tweeter (Duelund) caps made at least 10x the difference from an old NAD Cd player to a Linn Karik or at least 10x the difference that I heard from a 1k pre amp to a $3k+ pre amp. In the store I have heard 3k CD player to the 6 or 7k CD player and the Duelund in just the tweeter caps is 10x that. So I am not unhappy with Duelund in the midrange as the vintage blew away the Mundorf's I tried. So the vintage was not weak in the first place as a 28 year old cap still sounded MUCH better than brand new (200 hours on) Mundorf Supreme. I have personally e-mailed and thanked Duelund for making these fantastic foil caps. |
If you're not happy after a week with the Cast on the mids, pop the vintage oils back in( you already know you like them there) and focus on some of the other tweaks recommended in previous posts. Bottom line, just enjoy the music. The tweaks are a fun part of this hobby, but don't let them prevent your ultimate enjoyment of the music. |
Duelund did say this is a quote from an e-mail "The CAST has to my ears a quite lower noise floor than the VSF, right out of the box the HF may sound a little dulled on the CAST but this dissappears completely after 7 days". I just wanted to say to everyone I am in no way disapointed with Duelund. Maybe my words confused some. I only meant that the tweeter caps were such a MASSIVE improvement that the midrange was somewhat of a let down in comparison. That being said the Duelund tweeter caps was the biggest improvement I have ever heard in any upgrade including new sources or amps or anything. Now piling on the the hours and I am not concerned. Steen in his writings did say that foil caps or variations of the that were the way to go and did say some of the vintage were quite good. That is where Duelund gets there idea's from. I am running the Duelund VSF in the midrange and the CAST tweeter caps. The caps are much faster in the midrange than the vintage. Almost like the CD running to quick. Tommorow is the big day for me as I am hooking up the Lp12 which is my main concern anyway. I always thought the Karik a crappy CD player anyway. I was only shocked that the CD player sounded good with the vintage cap (mid range) which I think is likely slow and round sounding to smooth out the digital. With having the all vintage Klipsch there I can switch over at any second and do and always break out into laughter. At one point at the start of this thread I was not sure which was better the Klipsch or Linn speakers after hearing a Duelund crossover speaker both are just an absolute joke! |
Volleyguy, Did Dueland give you any idea of approximate time for break-in of the new Cast caps? I'm willing to wager that they need a couple of hundred hours to open up, hence the restrained mids and highs and accentuation of the bass effect. Give them some time. Turn your volume down for a week and watch some T.V. The World Series is on. |
Having the CAST's in for 12+ hours so far. I am going to wait awhile but the CAST's are not the same as VSF and seem to tilt the sound (quite a lot) to the bass. I have went up to the amp several times to see if I have turned up the bass? (vintage remember tone controls) CAST and VSF sound very different. (so far) I did not expect that? It is not just lower resonance they are a different sounding cap. Undertow I was thinking about the vintage cap. Maybe a little liquidity in the mid range is not a bad thing? Give voices smoothness? Now that liquidity might not work in the highs where you need clarity? The plastic caps sound absolutely dead. Was that not Mundorf's intention with the Silver in Oil to get the liquid sound? |
Listened to the Linn speakers today before the Klipsch. They have to go or be fixed! Undertow I should not have made it sound like I was disapointed with Duelund. It is more I was shocked how good the vintage (mid cap) was/is in comparison to all. You have and others have said about this being to much money in fairly cheap speakers. I find used Khorns to be quite expensive. Here is a 40 year old set for $4k! http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1227224990&/Klipsch-Klipschorn-1968-oiled- What do you get for that?? Even if one loved Klipsch sound these caps are 40 years old and I know for sure my 28 year old tweeter caps are shot and how long before the mid caps are gone if not? So for $4k you have to buy (in my mind) Duelund caps new wiring. So you are going to have $7k into a set of 40 year old speakers. That is not cheap in my mind. I see say Linn's Akurate 242 for less than $5k. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1228163709&/Linn-Akurate-242- at a couple of years old. Or as set of B&W or take your pick whatever company you want $7k used is quite a bit of money and for 40 year old speakers that is a lot! |
These threads can be good to get a bunch of guys opinions so that one does not lose their head in the process. Yes I know once I spent on the crossover I was locked into the speakers. The all vintage crossover does sound like a worn out speaker though so the money was spent replacing worn out parts not just for change sake. I have the CAST in the tweeters now. Things might be looking up there. Even right out of the box they sound very good! |
Undertow These speakers are made with a outboard crossover. You may be right with the whipped cream though. The first whipped cream (Duelund tweeter capacitor) made the desert MUCH better. Maybe I was (incorrectly) thinking more whipped would be even better. But what if it is a simple as digital going through a tube amp going through a liquid filled capacitor (the vintage one) took all the digital edge off? Like I said I had never heard ANY digital sound like that. I did not even believe my CD player could sound that good! I am going to put the vintage back in the midrange and listen for a bit then put in the CAST tweeter caps. Might be interesting. Undertow I was not just trying to improve my speakers part of it was maintanance. (28 year old caps) That is how the whole thread started. The speakers got noisy and I started with cheap plastic caps (Sonicaps) then Mundorf (ordered one Duelund just to see) and was shocked how they were all downgrades except the Duelund whose foil design match perfectly. Back to the vintage in the midrange. One thing for sure is foil caps sound very different (and better in my mind) than plastic. The Duelund and vintage sound much closer than any of the plastic caps to the foil. Next putting in the CAST tweeter caps. |
Volleyguy... Again as a warning, my suggestion you have to really remember here you can only expect in some way to end up being as good as the speaker is... I would suggest since going this far you need to probably build outboard crossovers, re-wire with better cable internally, probably deaden the cabinets further, possibly some simple bracing, maybe putting new footing on the speaker via spikes or some other means of coupling or de-coupling to the floor... I mean it is all critical in taking a design to the next transparency level, your kinda just taking the same old desert receipe and dumping more whip cream on it vs. changing the receipe a little. Again you were kinda warned about this and spending what you did without maybe addressing some other issues. You will still need a far better INductor on your woofer to really open up, and you also have the issue of being into a more complex situation since this is a 3 way speaker your working with and the midrange is always the hardest in the design. Good Luck |
Just the first few hours on the mid range VSF Duelund with the well broken in VSF's om the tweeters. Trying to get a handle on this. This is not the same change as the tweeter caps. The first time I heard them (mid cap Duelund) my daughter was down here singing more than ever! This is not the slam dunk that the tweeter caps were for two reasons. The best cap I have here for the mid range was the original oil filled foil cap. It was miles better than the Sonicap and the Mundorf Supreme. The Sonicap I have sold long ago. The Mundorf sat here and I MUCH preferred the oil filled foil cap. Where in the tweeter cap all caps are much better than the originals. I am going to have to go back and forth with the vintage and the Duelund VSF. Less resonance with the Duelund which I knew was in the vintage but it does sound harder??? The Duelund is not like the feeling I got with the Mundorf of falling in the ditch going what happened? But it is not all good either. As shocking as it sounds I could pull out the Duelund and put back in the vintage mid range cap? The Duelund and vintage sound much more alike then any of the plastic caps. Right now it is wayyyy closer than I ever would have guessed and so far it is still 1. Vintage for mid range. 2. Duelund VSF for mid range. (sounds rougher than the liquid filled vintage??? Shocked and not sure what is going on) Then a long way down to 3. Mundorf Supreme (with the Russian PIO by pass) 4. Mundorf Supreme 5. Sonicaps Tomorrow I will try the CAST with the vintage in the mid range. Also I am going to try the SS gear and analog (LP12) front end. Somewhat concerned as every other cap I have tried the initial impression was similiar even after many hours and different gear combos. That will mean I will have spent a ton of money on little or no improvment. Something none of us ever wants. |
Halcro mine did as well but (I think) sound even better now, again not much and nothing like the instant improvement they made. It sounds like the CAST may be a different beast. Duelund does say the same thing as Stormen though about the CAST anyway. Has anyone even heard of someone who did not like the VSF??? or liked another cap better? I have not heard of it. Like I have said I think Steen will go down in Audio history. |
Stormen you are upsetting me. That quote of the CAST being quite a bit better than VSF? They made a mistake on my order and it would have taken 6-8 weeks to get CAST midrange caps. So I said just ship me the VSF's! I have two CAST tweeter caps (and two VSF tweeter caps previous order) and I am going to compare against each other. Now when you say the CAST is quite a bit better is that in the midrange as well??? I can see in the tweeter caps but even in the midrange? This is the question people have thought me nuts already and way past the point of diminishing returns. Then you go and say the CAST is THAT much better. The order has been sent to me and I expect it tomorrow or the next day at the latest. I will likely never know what a midrange CAST cap sounds like. Now that the price has shot up. That is something I am hearing very little of that makes me wonder?? The CAST prices were once 50% more than VSF and now are 100% more. Which is why I ordered CAST in the first place based on old prices. Is it still worth the $ for CAST based on new prices? Undertow my understanding of the CAST was not just about voltage but even lower resonance due to the high pressure construction. (lower resonance I just could not imagine and had to hear) It was the CAST that went up the most in price, much more than the VSF which is why I ordered (but only got some) CAST caps as they are now out of my range. Undertow I am Ok if the VSF goes toward warm and open as I have horn speakers. Stormen it sounds like Duelund says the CAST is basically a oil cap? Like the vintage ones I have?? (but of course with a massive reduction in resonance) Then maybe I do not understand the construction differences. The CAST as I thought them were the same as VSF except less resonance. This is what confused me on the original order. The VSF sound like I did not know digital even could! So are they the ideal match for me even if they are less costly? Spending more money does not always mean better even for us audio nuts on the lunatic fringe! Stormen on the breakin?? I do find the VSF to be sounding better today then when I got them but there was never any not wonderful sounding part of the break in except maybe first few minutes. I do know Tony Gee has the CAST in for testing and it will be interesting if he ranks them a 14 or second to the VSF for whatever reason? |
Stormen not sure you mentioned your application or sizes of cast caps your using? Can you enlighten what you did with the cast vs. the vsf? Not sure, however they are for higher voltage.. Any cap is rated lower than it is from what I am told, for example duelund explained to me that the 200 volt rating for example is really capable of taking on 350.. Seems most caps virtually follow this.. however the cast are quite a bit higher at probably taking on about 800 to 850 volts.. Regardless its not really a point of the disscussion anyway, it was just simply stated that they made a higher voltage cap in which however the cast inherited the trait so be it. Thanks |
Undertow & Volleyguy, I asked Duelund for comments regarding your last posts on the technical differences between the CAST and VSF caps, this is the reply I got (my translation): "While it is true, there is a marked difference between the CAST and the VSF (to our ears at least...) this has nothing to do with differences regarding VDC performance ie. the CAST is not inherently better at handling high DC or AC currents. To achieve that you need to look at either our VSF DC or CAST 630v variants as they employ more layers of paper between the foils. The remark about the "casing" of the VSF being somewhat of an afterthought is off the mark. The cap being a waxdesign is after several days of vacuum impregnation capable of "holding" its own shape which we augment by using a special lacquer. The upshot of this is ofcourse that there is no resonating box around the cap a highly desirable trait in our opinion. The CAST being an oil cap at heart is not able to hold its own shape as the raw cap is soft. We take advantage of this by squeezing it in the CAST proces meaning it gets as flat as we can make it. The CASTing layer then keeps it that way. But again this has nothing to do with the standard CAST being better at handling higher currents than the VSF. The design brief was primarily to create a cap that is even less prone to resonance than the VSF." Me again: Volleyguy, When you get the CASTs be prepared for a very long break in period. I used them non stop for 14 days before I was anywhere close to the performance, I'm getting now. To my ears well above the performance of the VSFs. |
Well again the Cast can take the heat so to speak.. The VSF would not be trusted in some high voltage applications.. The casing alone on the VSF seems to be a pretty much basic just get the job done, and its simple which is why I feel its very good to any speaker application the fancy finish on the Cast is for high voltage something Duelund did not focus on until now it seems.. Sometimes the more straight forward and natural the better I have learned.. No doubt the Cast is another level for the Esoteric, but at the same time the Esoteric sound is not one I seek, the VSF seems to get a little bit of a rep for a slight lean toward warmer and more open.. The cast might be a little more "Controlled" but I am looking for more relaxed especially with a horn, thats why I know the Duelund silver graphite resistors although well within price range to risk them will not work out as well for me as like the straight heavy duty new Mundorf Resistors that are super natural sounding, and only cost 1.20 each :-) |
That was a good point on the voltage. I of course do not need the high voltage. I wonder how much of the extra cost was due to that which is of no use to me. I will be happy to be just done with this! Several months now of one speaker most of the time. This may sound strange but one really good speaker is better than two poor ones. Now two excellent ones this should be something. What I have noticed so far is you can hear around the instrument. Now feed those tweeters with a much quieter signal. Hmmm looking forward to it. |
I just talked to parts and my order is in as well. It seems there was some confusion with the CAST mid caps. I have only (and I say only) VSF for the midrange and two CAST tweeter caps coming. All in all this is Ok. Of course they are cheaper and as you guys say am I may be at the point of diminishing returns??? Maybe. At least I will be able to hear the CAST caps in the all critical tweeter section. Getting VSF's for the midrange does not make me afraid anyway!! Part of me was leary on the the CAST as you said unknown and if better how much better??? What scared me the worst was what if not as good?! I could deal with saying they were not worth the $ extra but what if worse! Scary thought! I expect my order tomorrow or the next day as well. My crossover works with the signal going through what will be the VSF mid cap and on to the CAST tweeter cap. So I will be able to form an opinion on the difference and the value of the difference. |
Oh and partsconnexion did ship my parts today finally, they will be in tomorrow for installation.. My crossover is simple and uses only a 1.75 uF cap on the first leg of my horn.. Should be a sweet result I think :-) If I was running a 1000 watt mono block, with a 85 db really Hi grade driver system in a more exotic speaker I could see where the Cast could come into play... |
Point being I believe that the 2% more you may or may not hear with Cheaper drivers in a far simpler 1st or second order crossover its just not complex enough to spend 100% more or something for a very slight window of difference.. I am sure the VSF is a world class cap and in most cases is the true ceiling for the point of diminishing returns.. Again to me a critical application for a cap would be in a Full range electronic piece running the entire frequency range, or VERY complex multi driver type line array speaker.. But remember the cast was more or less developed to close the gap in the extreme case and really was more designed to overcome the lower voltage applications of the VSF.. The cast simply can take more power, my application and most other speakers especially being in the 90 db to 100 db efficiency range will never see that kinda power stress. You have to pick and choose your battles somewhere, my cutoff was at a point that the caps outweight cost and the performance of the possibilities in a speaker design themselves. |
Halcro you say at the time there was no independent advice on the CAST over VSF. Is there now? I have not seen any? I sure hope you guys are wrong on the no benefit of CAST. (no offense) Undertow I sure hope it is not a critical application only to notice the benefit of CAST. I remember some guys saying the Duelund VSF was a waste and I have found it to be a huge jump from Mundorf and I would not call my system critical. In fact in my mind Mundorf has more in common with Sonicaps and cheaper caps than it does with Duelund. I have been a (total) convert to Steen's thinking that the crossover is the most critical component of the system. That is the reason I have got the CAST. I NOW realise just how critical the crossover is. Now have I gone overboard??? Maybe? but I can say I have listened to more digital since I got the Duelund than in the last 20 years. Sometimes I pinch myself and say this is digital! I would rate the tweeter caps as the BEST new money I have ever spent on gear, biggest improvement. Now will the CAST be worth the extra??? I do not know but at least we should give Duelund a chance. Stormen said some guys found the VSF to sound a little rough compared to the CAST. I know I can not imagine that either. |
I think to gain the benefits of the cast would need to be really critical applications... Main thing is that duelunds caps are so huge you would never build an entire crossover inside the speaker anyway in most cases and end up with them in a separate enclosure, which I start to see even less advantages in the tone aspect buying the cast over the vsf in my. Man I can't believe even the 5.6 is that huge! |
The large capacitor is 44uF whilst the smaller one is 5.6uF. The drive unit pictured is a 5 1/4" Scanspeak Mid/Woofer which the 44uF crosses to at 950Hz whilst the Tweeter crosses at 4750Hz. I could have bought the Cast capacitors instead of the VSF, but at the time there was no independent evidence of their benefits over the VSF except for Duelund's own advice. I just didn't want to risk it? |
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1220501771.jpg Volleyguy and Undertow, while you wait for your Duelunds, see the size of the single caps for my speakers on the above link. Most of the hand crafting for Duelund is done by outside contractors and suppliers so Duelund is at their mercy. Be patient, the wait is worth it. |
Do you mean the Silver CAST? You know what I never really considered that? Not that I could afford it but just seems crazy to me. I would have a ton of stuff to put money into before Silver CAST. I can say even the new high prices for the VSF's (Copper) I would still pay for sure for the tweeters. They are well worth it. I will know shortly on what this means for mid range. In fact I am still so smitten with Duelund I would likely look to Aluminum VSF if cost was and issue still for the tweeters before I dropped down to another range. I would love to hear Tony Gee on Aluminum against other people's best. |
Yes I was contacted about the resistors as wellÂ… Even though expensive for a resistor 15 bucks is still easily going to sell more than 500 per pair of capacitors for sure! And many more are willing to take the (non) refundable risks if they don't like the 15 dollar resistor over a custom set of capacitors that will be worthless and very expensive if you decided not to use them. So its pretty simple to see the popularity difference and why they would sell many more duelund resistors in partnership with some 30 dollar mundorf caps vs. people taking a huge chance on probably the second most expensive made capacitors in the world :-) You gotta be as nuts as us to even consider it! |
I did just talk to partsC and they say the rest of the back order is coming and may be here today. Apparently they have got a shipment in the couple of weeks. (just not ours) I guess there resistors sell very well. I did have someone on the board (e-mail me) who has got resistors recently. It is a small company and hand built is not like turning on a machine. I am wayyyy more hopeful/concerned on the sound then how long they take. From my point of view I have owned these speaker 27 years so far and am thinking long term. That is why I am spending more on the CAST even though they may not be that much better. I hope to amortize that cost over 20+ years. CAST likely would not make sense to a person who changes speakers all the time. Unless of course they have much deeper pockets than mine. I am the odd guy in audio who would likes to keep equipment for a long, long time. |
Well my intial order went through end of July which is now 2 1/2 months. They never started those caps as the owner was on his honeymoon with his wife. He was back late Aug when the order was put through with the added parts. Which is now exactly 7 weeks. I had to cut some slack for the owner who now just married. So since in Europe they shut down for a month and maybe large orders went through and could be causing this to take longer than thought. (normal is 6 weeks on the CAST so I understand) So I am just one week longer than normal. |
That's interesting Undertow and a bit concerning? Sure makes me wonder if something else is going on? Making by hand is a tough job to quote. It is interesting as I imagine after the price increase sales would have dropped dramatically at least I would have expected that. They may have waited for my order as well as more. My original order was in late July. (before the price increase) I was just allowed to add to the order. At first I was ordering just one cap of CAST to try because I did not know how much (if any) better they would be. Since it was a one shot deal meaning I could not order at the old prices after original order was complete I got the CASt's now. I am Ok with the time as I know the VSF's are worth the wait so I assume CAST is as well. I just figured (maybe hoped) they were taking their time knowing there are people waiting to hear the differnce from CAST and VSF. I believe I will be the only one on the net who is not from a company who will be talking about them in camparison. (which is only a tweeter comparison) I know there are people who have had both but I am not aware of there comments. I was only nervous that CAST would somehow not be as good as VSF. It does happen in other companies where not always the most expensive is their best. I know many like some of the cheaper Mundorf's over Gold/Silver. From what I have read CAST does not change the sound just better damping so even quieter. That I have got to hear. I have been told that not to expect the jump to CAST like it was from vintage. I fully expect that as in all Audio the diminishing return. (and the VSF is already at a VERY high level) Speaking of people watching this link is now over 10k hits. |
I did not order the cast caps.. Which I would figure are the longest... I ordered just over 2 months ago for the VSF's... So yeah its been a very difficult cap to get obviously, I was told by partsconnexion that if I wanted to order I would need to do it right then, which was like August 5th because they were putting in one big order for a bunch of customers at once to get it done faster and ship all in one.. Well obviously that made no difference, they probably waited a couple more weeks and such others that finally ordered like your casts etc... finally pushed them to put the order in I guess. |