@acman3,I am glad to see someone agree with what I was tring to say!your post is well put!,I agree with you with what you are saying!as well,keep us posted english210,cheers! |
I'm not elliminating anything yet, except things I just can't afford. I am also one prone to wait a little longer to get the $$ for what I really want, instead of compromise and then wish I'd spent the extra, but there are options that just aint gonna happen, too. That's part of what's going on now. I know that ultimately, until I pull the trigger, the 'answer' will remain unsure. I also feel that any of the amps suggested will likely serve the purpose, and there's not likely to be just one 'right' answer. Maybe part of it is the 'offer I can't refuse' that hasn't quite happened yet. But I do at least know of lots more options thanks to the answers I've received here.
So, anyone got a 400xi for $500?? :) |
FWIW, I had a Krell 400xi with Martin Logans and Joseph Audio 25xl and enjoyed it. Not bright like the Krell reputation. Only sold it to go to separates. YMMV unfortunately!!!
You can study and read til the cow's come home, it's good to do your homework, but you will need to hear in your system to see what you like. You may find the soft top end boring/polite once you hear it.
Have Fun and enjoy learning! The journey is most of the fun. |
well put English210,still,the krells mentioned above have finese and a laid back sound on the treble,they are in no way forward sounding!,do keep me posted here on your quest,I know krell is not the only answer here,just one of them,happy listening! |
The problem is, as I see it, there are very few 'Facts' in this hobby that is so dependant on personal preference. I've read a lot about Krell, and others, and have no doubt they would drive the Infinity's, or any other speaker, with ease. My reading (which is all I have since I can't audition all the candidates) says they may not be the best choice for a laid back top end, which I think I need to tame the Emit tweeters. Being familiar with those, you know they aren't shy. So, although current and 'balls' are necessary for the low end on the Kappa's, and the Krell has that in spades, I also need a 'softer'(?) top end. Other's have suggested a Butler, C-J, and others, and I believe they 'know' that their suggestions would also give me what I need. The Odyssey would be new, and under $1500.00, and that's where I'm aiming, although there is a used 400Xi on fleabay for $1800, and I think on the 'gon for a little less. Klaus @ Odyssey says his Khartago, upgraded, will make my Infinities sound better than I ever thought they could, apples and oranges. I'm....sceptical...that there would be that much difference, however I do believe it'll be a big plus. Everyone here has supported my basic premise, that a good amp can in fact tame my speakers, so I don't feel it's a fool's errand. If the Odyssey does fall short, I can send it back, if a used Krell (or any other used amp) fails to impress, it's not so easy. I don't believe there is one right answer, I'm taking all the suggestions and investigating on my own.
Thanks again. |
wow!I gave a well educated fact!,A used krell amp would give you the sound you are seeking for your infinitys!way better than parasound ever thought about sounding!,even a used intergrated amp like a 300I, 400xI, a used pure class A fpb 200 that goes for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 would litterally destroy a parasound amp with its sound quality!,I have experience with ribbon speakers,with the right amp your infinitys that I am familiar with as well,would sing!,with these krell amps,and they will not make you morgage the house to do it!your infinitys will out perform those psb,paradighm speakers period with a good amp!,A tube pre-amp would be the finishing touches to a good sound for ribbon speakers!happy listening! |
wow!I gave a well educated fact!,A used krell amp would give you the sound you are seeking for your infinitys!way better than parasound ever thought about sounding!,even a used intergrated amp like a 300I, 400xI, a used pure class A fpb 200 that goes for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 would litterally destroy a parasound amp with its sound quality!,I have experience with ribbon speakers,with the right amp your infinitys that I am familiar with as well,would sing!,with these krell amps,and they will not make you morgage the house to do it!your infinitys will out perform those psb,paradighm speakers period with a good amp!,A tube pre-amp would be the finishing touches to a good sound for ribbon speakers!happy listening! |
wow!I gave a well educated fact!,A used krell amp would give you the sound you are seeking for your infinitys!way better than parasound ever thought about sounding!,even a used intergrated amp like a 300I, 400xI, a used pure class A fpb 200 that goes for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 would litterally destroy a parasound amp with its sound quality!,I have experience with ribbon speakers,with the right amp your infinitys that I am familiar with as well,would sing!,with these krell amps,and they will not make you morgage the house to do it!your infinitys will out perform those psb,paradighm speakers period with a good amp!,A tube pre-amp would be the finishing touches to a good sound for ribbon speakers!happy listening! |
ok, thanks. The Odyssey I'm leaning towards is 22. |
I personally would make it 15k-20k. A lot of class d amps run at 20k and would be fine. |
Acman3, so as long as I stay above 20X 1.2 (25kohms), I'm safe in that regard? |
Yes, I replaced it with a poly material. Back to 'normal', do back on the original quest...it was not broken when all this started. The original polypropylene was old and dried, and developed a slight tear.
Running through my reference discs yesterday, the speakers are back to 'normal'. Sound good until the volume is listed as 0db, where +16.5 is absolute max. Past that point, and the highs get harsh, and there's no cohesion to the music, it just becomes a muddled mass of noise. |
Was the "dome midrange" broken? |
I have the PSB Sync 1's paired with an Ayre AX-7e integrated amp, Love it - drives well at both low and higher SPLs. Only trick was placement and the use of the woofer plugs on the PSBs. Took some time to get set with those. Overall very happy and have to plans to change. I too considered Vandersteen - at the time the 2ceSig iis - but would love have loved to check out the Treos. Both PSB and Vandy match very well with Ayre IMHO. Good luck! |
I managed to repair the dome midrange. So, although I can't say I'd never want to upgrade speakers, as it stands I'm back on the upgrade-amp track. So, about that impedance spec....? |
As I started on this thread, I suggest making sure want to keep the speakers you have, before doing anything else. If you do fine, by all means get the most out of them within your means.
If your not sure, or plan to change the speakers down the road, stop, you'll be going down a road that is likely to be marred with unnecessary obstacles, effort and frustration.
As far as making suggestions that also cater to some visual considerations, well, that's where I take the nearest exit.
Good luck, I hope you find what your looking for. |
The rule of thumb is 10x the preamp impedance, but others say 20 x the Preamp impedance, so either way, your under 33kohms.
Let us know how it turns out for you and good luck! |
OK, so for example, a Parasound amp I'm looking at says it's input impedance is 33kohms, my AVR lists output impedance at 1.2kohms. How does that match up? |
I think your idea of a good amp to mate with your speakers is a good plan. Then fine tune with IC's as Hevac1 says. Then move to better speaker if needed.
If you buy used you can keep $ losses to a minimum if you don't like the results. Cables can be changed like underwear with this theory. Amps and speakers get a little tougher.
Btw, almost any of the amps mentioned would sound good. Be sure and check input impedance of your amp against Preamp impedance. |
I have owned Audioquest and found them to be more to the lean side of neutral. They could be why your system needs to be tamed. Have you tried your old IC's since your speaker change, They may sound good compared to the new IC's.
I would look for IC's that are some what on the dark side of neutral. MIT may work well for your system but can expensive unless you get some used or try monster. Also remember new IC's do need time to breakin around 200 hours and will sound very different over time. |
Hmm..I have Audioquest from the AVR to the amp, which was an upgrade over the 'Radio Shack' level I'd been using, but heonestly, I didn't notice much if any change. |
Other items in your system besides amps can change your sound, I would try some different IC's. Try some old monster cables. I remember I did not and still do not like monster cable because to me they seem too polite especially on the high end range. It could also be a lot less expensive depending on the IC you purchase. Go for IC's that are on the warm side of neutral. |
IF I change speakers, and it's a big if, I'd be more likely to have to get some that are more streamlined and 'fit' the room better aesthetically. The PSB's are 'approved' in that regard. Having said that, I've listened to B&W CM9's (I think that's the model, about $3K?), Paradigms in the same price range, Studio something's, neither of which impressed much, although a slight edge to the B&W. I did hear the 804's, and was impressed, but not in a particularly great listening setup. I heard the Vandersteen Treo (again, I think, about $6K) that someone was using to audition a TT. Associated electronics were also significantly upmarket on those, but they did sound pretty good!
I haven't covered all bases by any means, but so far what I've heard is leading me to believe that I'll need to get close to $6K to get to an improvement in sound that's more than just incremental and doesn't involve a compromise elsewhere - although I am also aware there would be a 'boost' to the sound of most of what I've heard by getting them into my room vs. the setups they've been in, but that applies to the PSB's as well. That I'm not ready for. I would be quite comfortable buying used speakers from that level though. I do see a set of Synchrony 2's on the 'gon for a great price, about 1/2 of list, and they are really tempting...
...but again, how good would they sound with the amp I have, a 25 year old Yamaha that was nothing special when I got it, never mind the march of time, although it's never missed a lick in all that time either...
What I'm looking at mostly is amps in the sub-$1500 range. I can't help thinking a good quality amp will bring the most out of the speakers I have, and when it is time to upgrade the speakers, I'll have quality to drive them with already. |
Have you heard any other speakers besides the PSB's? Perhaps something like the Vandersteens 2's? The cost of which would be significantly lower, low enough to buy a really good matching amp too, for the same price as the PSB's. The used market has some steals too. |
My Kappa's are way down the range from the IRS's, they are a 3-way box, and IIRC, retail was $1600/pr back then. The 8's and 9's were the real beasts, and many an amp went up in smoke, literally, trying to power them. I fully expected to be blown away by the improvements a $3-5K speaker could offer, but it hasn't proven true (yet). The PSB's sound wonderful, yes, but I'm struggling to hear $3-5K better. Plus I'm very aware that a better amp can bring more out of what I have, and the PSB's were on far better electronics than I have, so if the gap were to be closer when I upgrade the amp, it would be harder yet to justify a speaker upgrade. I had heard of the tissue-tweak as well, and wouldn't be opposed to it, but as I said, I'm mostly happy with the sound until I want to get loud. That's when things get ugly.
I appreciate all the input. Much has confirmed suspicions I already had, much has given me new directions to look, and with the consensus being that there's more to be brought out of the speakers I have, that's encouraging.... |
A good used class A krell amp,any model old or new class a/b would drive the hell out of your speakers with ease!,with very good sound!,you can find many used krells at different price points,depends on what you can afford,regardless,krell is known to drive any speaker! cheers! |
I haven't actually heard the combination, in fact I'm not sure that the Kappa's I heard so long ago where the same as yours.
I do seem to remember that back in the day the Infinity IRS' (along with the Wilson Wamms) were the top of the line, most expensive speakers going. I could be wrong, but I think those IRS' might have used something like the emits that are on your Kappas. This is a long time ago, but I seem to remember that tubes were the only way to go with the IRS' (the bass panels had their own ss "servo" amps built in), and c-j tubes were a popular choice for them, but even with tube amps, some used to cover the IRS' tweeters with tissue paper to attenuate the brightness. In as much as that might seem to be an anathema on a speakers that cost around 50-60$K in the late 1980's, it was pretty effective. I even have a friend that uses the same fix today on some old Linn speakers.
Those IRS' midrange/tweeters did some magical things, and are still sought after today, but obviously they weren't perfect (at least IMHO).
I believe your speakers have a nominal impedance of about 6 Ohms, but I have no idea what the minimal impedance is. The use of self powered subs might be very advantageous with them, but that's purely speculative on my part.
As well as I can remember (not very well), I remember the Kappas as being OK, but found other alternatives preferable. You might very well disagree.
The c-j I hyperlinked is actually a tube/ss hybrid, seemed like a calculated safe choice. YMMV. |
Oh Boy, more choices :) - at least that is a loal pickup in PA, so no real temptation there. I know nothing about tube amps, or the maintainance involved, whereas the Butler supposedly gets around the maintenance issue by not driving the tubes to the max...
It seems tubes would smooth out the highs, though, is that the consensus? I'm wondering how much of the objectionable highs I have is from the amp running out of juice. Does that make the speakers sound that bad, and therefore, a 'real' amp with 'real' current would eliminate the problem? Or is it a speaker issue that just comes on at high volumes, and needs an amp that's softer in the highs to reign in a problem inherent to the speaker. As I've said, I have no objections to the sound at low-mid volumes, just when I'm cranking it up. Perhaps the ribbons in the Emit tweeter are heating up due to the amp running out of power, and that's why they sound bad, or will they do that at high volumes even with more (enough?) power?
My thinking is, if the speakers are inherently flawed in that area, and even a 'good' amp doesn't fix the issue, then the speakers needed replacing anyway, and anything I get would need a better amp than I have now. So a good amp now (first) isn't a waste. If getting an amp does fix the problem, then I've saved a significant outlay on new speakers. Klaus at Odyssey swears up and down I'll be blown away by what my speakers sound like with his amp, even though the wpc rating is about what I have now...
I suppose I'm not really looking for a amp that's 'softer' in the highs to counteract the speakers, but rather hoping that the objectionable highs I have now are because of the amp I have now, and therefore a better amp will eliminate the problem. I don't want to correct a speaker problem with an amp, but correct an amp problem with an amp. |
Just a thought:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-conrad-johnson-evolution-2000-2013-02-12-amplifiers-19464 |
Found some reviews on that, and it does seem like a nice match. A little pricier than I was planning on, but not totally out of the question used, there's a couple here used for $1750/1800. The Odyssey is still leading the way though...we'll see...
Thanks again |
A used Butler 2250 would sound good with the Infinity's, I would think. Lots of power and smooth top end. |
Well it seems in 2 channel, my speakers are still full range, so perhaps that's not factoring in, however I found last night one of the Polydome mids is blown, so first order of business is to replace those.
I found some reviews of Odyssey amps, and talked to Klaus from there, and he swears his amp will make my speakers sing like never before...even with less wpc than I currently have...this ain't getting easier. Time to fix the mids, and pull the trigger on something...the only thing I know for sure is that there's no right answer.. |
That your powered subs didn't seem to help alleviate the high end issues, makes me wonder if the problem isn't just inherent in the speakers themselves. Does the problem occur on all or just some recordings when the volume is raised? |
I've been looking at Parasound. It 'seems' to my uneducated eyes that the older spec out better than new. Richard Schrma at Parasound recommended a 2250, but the specs on that seem far below the HCA220II for example. I'm trying to get something good sub-$1K, which seems possible but not easy. An A21 seems comparable spec-wise to an HCA2200II, so I've been looking down that path. Nothing available yet...Haven't seen much in used higher power Parasounds, although a non-mk.II HCA2200 just popped up on fleabay. I can't remember the difference, but seem to remember it was a worthwhile difference to the II.
Those Rowlands would be sweet!! Wonder if they'd keep me warm on a cold night sleeping in my car?? :) |
Sorry, I missed your budget. It's just so easy suggesting higher end gear. Still, those Rowlands would be sweeeet. How about a used Parasound A21?
One point about speakers like Vandersteens, Avalon, and Thiel. Generally speaking they were designed with more emphasis paid to time and phase correctness, and quality crossover design. In my case most speakers that do not do these things well are easily noted and easily dismissed. |
Sorry, I sounded pi$$y there, not my intent. The sub is a ULS15, powered.
Vicdamone - point taken, and I'll admit to a bias against D amps. Unwarranted, I'll grant you, as I have never listened to one, but nonetheless...I'll work on that. The JRDG's look wonderful, but a little out of my price range...;)
I was impressed with a set of Vandersteen's I heard that same day I was listening to the PSB's. Don't remember the model, but they were $6K, about 48" tall, and tapered. Someone was auditioning a Reva 'table, and Peter Gabriel was sounding wonderful! |
There are enough amplifier manufactures that offer trial periods some simply for the cost of shipping.
I experienced similar issues with my first experience with entry level speakers at more realistic volumes powered by lower wattage linear solid state amplifiers.
I purchased a very newly released PS Audio HCA-2 switching amplifier, my first class D and, since then, three other sets of switching amplifiers including my current Hypex nC400s which power the monitors in my studio. One of the benefits of most of the class D amps that I've audition and owned is their ability to remain sonically stable and uncongested at their higher output limits.
All my A/B and most of the class A linear solid state amplifiers I've auditioned have difficulty in this area, some worse than others. To class D detractors this ability subjectively comes across as cold, sterile, or too forward. The Hypex and a few other newer design switching amplifiers are improving this trait by priority design and not with tubes or with the usual solid state tuning methods.
Even so I can't caution enough the importance of and in home audition if you're switching to a class D amplifier. Personally, I listen to Carver tube amps in my main system. The Hypex are used for track playback of mic locating for which they are ruthlessly accurate.
I loved my Yamaha R1000 and my neighbors Yamaha CFX grand Piano is absolutly stunning. Yamaha's electronics are simply not their strong point and your description mirrors my own experience with them.
That said another amplifier should bring new life to your old speakers. I would suggest learning everything you can about Vandersteen speakers which IMO would be the natural progression from your Kappa's.
A very nice pair of used Rowland Model 6s currently on the Gon would do well with both your Kappas and a pair of Quatro's. |
I did read your earlier posts, and somehow missed the part of high volume causing problems with the highs. I've just reread it, and sure enough its there. Another amp, perhaps with more power might help, then again it might not. Are the added subs self powered? |
I agree, but if you read my earlier posts, you'll see that the sound is great until volumes get elevated, THEN it gets harsh/bright and objectional. Until then, they sound great. My question originally was perhaps phrased badly, and it was written badly badly, but the intent is clear enough. I certainly wouldn't want an amp that tends towards brightness, based on the problem I've having. Most brands claim and aim for neutrality, but the reality seems to be that there is a tendency, or favor, towards one range or another. Some emphasise bass, some mids some highs. At least until you get to the upper price ranges I can't reach. So, here I am... |
I'm of the opinion that one should purchase an amp that best allows the speakers to do all that they're capable of, not fix the speakers. |
Bondmanp, ok, so I'll fill in the blanks: The problem I'm having is in 2-channel mode, so the avr's only sending signal through the preouts, the surround speakers it is also powering aren't in the equation. The speakers are notoriously tricky, Infiniity Kappa 7's (but they're far easier to drive than the 8's or 9's big brothers) with a guestimate of efficiency @ 87ish. The room is 12X19X8. I had thought of just trying an Emo amp, but then I read they can be bright anyway, and that's the last thing I want. From the feedback here, I'm 'aiming' for a Parasound, Classe (read elsewhere they are laid back), or Wyred. Emo has the best return policy if it didn't do the job I need, but if they're bright-ish anyway, what would it tell me? |
English - In absolute terms, no, it doesn't mean much. Coupled with your speakers' efficiency rating and room size, it can mean a lot. IIRC, Yamaha AVRs used to be widely criticized for not having enough output. Especially when tested by mags like Home Theater, the power output would usually fall to well below the advertised output when more than two channels were driven.
I think the best way for you to procede is to either borrow a more powerful amp from a friend or dealer to try out, or purchase an amp from a direct seller or dealer with a good return policy (watch out for "restocking" fees). Then you will see quickly if a beefier amp gets you the results you seek.
If not, report back, and we'll take it from there. |
My thought is the amp is straining, hence the thread. The receiver is running an outboard MX2 amp, 125wpc (although somewhere I read it was 150). Perhaps there's a gain issue between the avr and amp, but as both are Yamaha, I didn't really consider that. All I can say is that movies/tv are usually around -15 to -20db on the volume display. When I'm really cranking it, 2 channel, home alone, etc, I'll crank it up to 0db or possibly higher. the 'max' is +16.5. Does that mean anything to anyone in absolute terms? I understood it better when volume controls were a simple 1-10...
Anyway, since the problem is only a problem for me at 'I have the house to myself, time to let the neighbors know I'm home' volumes, I'm reasonably sure it's the amp running out of power. |
I'm not familiar with Peachtree, but that amp is Class D. In reading some of the previous posts, room treatments are good, but I think that high frequencies are less affected by room. That's why tweeters are usually recommended to be at ear level, they are not as robust as other frequencies. But other frequencies can certainly be an issue.
And sibilance, or a distortion like sound coming from the tweeters, is probably not room gain related. Is there a possibility that your Yamaha receiver is straining at higher levels? |
Possibly, but it's a Yamaha AVR, hardly audiophile quality, but since the issue is only an issue at higher volumes, it seems to be a power amp issue - a new pre isn't in the cards for now, the room is also the family/tv/movie room. |
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I'm surprised no one asked what kind of preamp is being used. That could easily be the problem.
. |
can anyone offer opinions of a Peachtree 220 amp as an option for taming the highs on my speakers? |
You make a good point, and I suppose the amp being a cure-all is optimistic at best, but it's where I need to start. At least the feedback/advice I've gotten (thanks to all!!) is encouraging me that I can make an improvement. Perhaps for long enough that by the time I do hear those 'I gotta have them!!' speakers, I'll have the money to get them :) |
FWIW, taming my bright upper-mids and lower treble was a very long, involved process. My original speakers, with metal dome tweets, were very harsh at higher volumes. An amp upgrade, from a Rotel to an Odyssey Audio Stratos, did a lot to clean up that band, but I realized that the speakers were just bright-sounding, too much so for my tastes. I upgraded to Ohm Walsh 2000s a few years ago, and the problem is mostly gone now. But along the way, changes to other components, cables and even a power filter all helped in taming a hot brightness range. With each improvement, I got smoother sound in this range and beyond, while gaining improvements in detail retrieval. So it was not just the amp, or just the speakers - it was everything in the system, even the room treatments, that killed the harshness. IME, I found the PSBs that I've heard to be extremely harsh in the upper-mids and lower treble, especially when pushed hard. In fact, I find most affordable speakers with crossovers in the 2-4kHz range to be too hot in that frequency range. YMMV, of course. Older SS mid-fi amps, like the Yammi, also tended to be harsh in this range. Although there were, and are exceptions. While my old Pioneer AVR lacked detail and soundstage dimensionality, it was not too harsh in theat frequency range.
I guess the challenge is to "warm up" the sound without throwing a blanket over it, losing detail in the process. To me, that elusive combo of detail with natural warmth is my holy grail in this hobby. I am getting close, but a recent loan of some high-powered Class D amps has made me realize that I need a lot more power. |
I am a little surprised that my Kappa's, $1600 list 25 years ago, weren't blown away by what I heard out of the PSB's ($3500-5500). The PSB's were better, don't get me wrong, but not enough to justify that much cash. An amp is necessary purely because I need more power to drive the Kappa's to the volume levels I occasionally get to. I've always known amps sound different, I just wasn't sure if the degree of help I needed was possible from an amp change. I didn't notice the need until I added a sub, and even then, the volume does have to be high for the highs to be objectionable, but that's where the idea of the problem being the amp came from. So I can get the amp I need anyway and solve all my problems.....
Well.....for now....(evil grin)... |
