Perhaps Audiogon shown create another forum category where dealers can out each other and belittle each other and the products they carry. They could also attempt oneupmanship as far as how much they know and how long they've known it, sort of like audio mud wrestling 8^). |
I AGREE - When discussing products in your line, non-disclosure is unethical and unprofessional. I thought dealers had to so disclose per Audiogon rules or get banned, but maybe I'm incorrect.
Fortunately, I already know about Zieman from other posts, but other consumers could be easily and unfairly mislead. I suppose this "self-policing" is necessary if Audiogon won't do anything - too bad. |
"They could also attempt oneupmanship as far as how much they know and how long they've known it, sort of like audio mud wrestling"
A "Last Man Standing" match would be cool...I'm just saying. |
Mapman, You've just earned anything at my cost for life. Fail claims 50 years, problem is, some folks work 50 years, some folks work 1 year 50 times. Get it? How will this factor in to your contest? |
"How will this factor in to your contest?"
It doesn't matter how it factors in!
I'd have to go with 'feil in a "Last Man Standing " match. |
Yeah, audio cage match man! With lots of mud slinging!!! |
Let's get this party started! |
Where do we place our bets?
Dave |
Wow! There are new ones born every day. In their most fundamental and primitive form, cables can be characterized by their resistance "R", capacitance "C" and inductance "L". Anyone with a slight hint of scientific background knows that these are the components of a "Filter". So yes cables based on their construction and electrical parameters WILL sound slightly different. But with that said, any good engineer worth his salt can design a good conductor for the "Audio Bandwidth" spectrum. As a matter of fact, the companies that have researched this field of audio transmission through a conductor are NOT the high-end audio company's but rather the actual "wire" manufacturers and those involve in supplying cables to the radio and television broadcast industries. And most of you would chock on your expensive cables to find out that these companies sell their well researched and engineered cables for pennies a foot. One of the best regarded cables in the Ultra-high-end market is FM Acoustics' line of Forceline and Precision Interface cables, which I have had; and I have come to find out that they are made from pennies a foot radio/studio industry standard cables made in Switzerland. In other words, each high cable manufacturer puts their spin and repackaging on the bare wires. And yes I do agree that there are slight difference in their sound. But only those individuals who are less informed and lacking of scientific knowledge individuals would continue this trial and error cable swap ritual when there are better, more predictable and more precise ways to accomplish the same end result in a more controlled method. The pricing of these cables is a sham and although the construction, looks and feel of these cables is often quiet impressive, in the end what really matters is the inexpensive wire used. The cost of bare silver and gold and other precious metals does not even begin to justify some of the more exotic cables in the market. You can continue to experiment with cables as "tone-control" but why settle for static filters????? When programmable and adjustable filters are available???? As long as there are gullible consumers out there, the high-end audio industry will always be a place where they are prayed upon. |
Carlos269, in regards to your last post I can only assume you would agree the same argument can be said for audio equipment itself.......
Only a small percentage of difference in sound is gained by mega bucks equipment compared to that of moderately priced so called "Hi-End equipment".
Circuit designs pretty much the same. Components bought from the same suppliers..... So why would anybody in their right mind spend all them extra bucks? Just for the name? |
Jea,
Not exactly true. High-end amplifiers such as the early Krell KMA and and KRS series could produce enough current to be used as arc welders; this is not just a trivial act but an engineering accomplishment with substance and merit. My NRG Control 400 Watts "Pure Class A" monoblock monsters are even more capable. These are components of substance and merit that no Best Buy or Circuit City component can replicate. The need for these engineering marvels is that there are speakers out there that demand this level of control = current. Which leads to speakers; the science and engineering of reproducing the audio spectrum from 16Hz to 40Khz at high sound pressure levels (spl) is not trivial and you will not find a Best Buy or Circuit City speaker that will do that. Please don't make more of my statements than they are. Components of merits and substance can, and will always, justify their cost while audio luxury items such as $100K tube amps based on 1940's and 1950's designs with a hand full of components can not and neither can cables over a certain amount of dollars. I hope that I have made myself clear, that it all comes down to substance and merit or it winds up like "Art" in which the prices are justified not by how well they execute their function but rather by how much value we place on their "artistic" statement. |
I thought 'feil was closer to 90. |
Fenderny, How perceptive! I am concerned about all the wax build-up, in addition to just plain old age... |
Carlos269, I don't consider Best Buy or Circuit City as Hi-End equipment retailers...... |
Carlos269,
Thank you for opening the window - a sudden breath of fresh air just blew through these forums. Unfortunately, the window will soon shut and the smell of 'snake oil' will soon dominate once more and, like any smell, after a while we all get so used to it that nobody even notices it. |
Carlos, I can see by your collection that you are contributing to an area you have no experience in. The bleeding edge of any technology provides the incremental improvements you have yet to experience. This contributes to the price too. There is indeed better technology and implementation incorporated in product at your local Best Buy that will outperform the majority of your inventory. For less... Your observation of the cable merry-go-round is accurate, yet it appears you are in the same boat with regards to electronics. |
Jea,
Those were used for exaggeration purposes. The end of my post I believe answered your questions. At the end of the day, what the high-end press considers "entry Level" components have the some limitations but if they have implemented "sound", no pun intended, circuit design and good engineering than they should be good enough within their application. But just like everything else, extreme conditions demand extreme response and that is what "I" consider high-end; substance and merit and not arbitrarily set prices and pride-in-ownership flavor of the month components. I value my money and to me it is all about performance. |
Carlos269, Here is an example of what I am trying to get at.
The ARC Ref 3 preamp retails for $9995.
The BAT Rex preamp $20,000......
Both great preamps I am sure.
Would you say the BAT will sound twice as good as the ARC?
Or maybe only 5% better? Or maybe not at all? |
Carlos269,
I think you position may be a bit extreme, but I do not disagree completely with your assertions regarding high end boutique equipment.
When my wife buys clothes in a boutique, they are not necessarily more functional than name brand stuff more commonly found.
They often do look nicer though, so there is some value there for some...but certainly not all. |
Jae,
The transition of going from talking about cables to electronics is not as smooth. To answer your questions head on: Price alone is neither indicative of a component's performance (objectively) nor of its sound (subjectively)!
Zieman,
I beg to differ. Take a closer look. Name one component that is at the leading edge of technology in audio that is past my Digital Audio Denmark AX24? Name one component in my room that can be outperformed/outclassed by a component at Best Buy. You are getting into it with someone with advanced degrees not only in Physics but also in Electrical Engineering. I think that I know a thing or two about the state of electronics, both digital and analog circuit design, digital filters, cable transmission and electrical and acoustic prorogation theory. I will gladly submit my credentials up for scrutiny and you should do the same. Before you start questioning my contribution you better make sure you know what kind of tree it is that you are barking at! |
Carlos, I would simply refer you to comments already posted about your collection. |
11-13-08: Carlos269
The transition of going from talking about cables to electronics is not as smooth. To answer your questions head on: Price alone is neither indicative of a component's performance (objectively) nor of its sound (subjectively)! Carlos, Why can't we throw the same blanket over power cords and interconnects? |
Jea48,
Surely we can.
Its a lot cheaper and easier to switch from one decent wire to another, especially when one buys used. Wires are also low risk used compared to more complex audio technologies and they tend to depreciate in value from new just like other gear.
Also one can get carried away regarding the price/value proposition with most anything, not just stereo gear. |
Wow dudes, I'm amazed at how a simple statement in the original post turned into pure bulls**t!!! |
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