This tread is incredible. It has continued for five years despite all of the sound empirical evidence available, most importantly double blind testing. If wed only take a little time and do a little research, this thread wouldnt exist, and the mudslinging would cease. We have so much information at our fingertips on the internet, but we persist with our subjectivism and wallow in silly pseudo-science. Ignorance is bliss.
If a cable makes a significant audible difference it must be altering the signal. The principal of Hi-fi means delivering the signal as purely and unaltered as possiblesimple copper zip cord does this very well. If ordinary zip cord is "harsh" and some other special mega-buck cable "smooth," whats the "smooth" cable doing to the original signal? Lets not confuse what sounds pleasant to our ears from what is actually faithful to the original. We like junk food because it tastes pleasant; it looks and feels more perfect, not because its more pure, natural, and faithful to the original. (Some people really do prefer chicken nuggets to a simple roasted chicken.)
Here are a few links to read that provide scientifically validated evidence both theoretical and practical. If you wish to remain in the fantasy world of cable geometry, ceramic elevators, and frivolous fairy dust wizardry, keep your blissdont read them.
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Audio-Cable-Vendor.html
http://www.ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/apcable/apcrit.html |
I find cabling as important as any other part of the musical chain including ones mood at the time of listening. I beleive without a doubt that good cables make a huge positive difference when used in proper synch with the rest of the system and it's cables. Good cables do not have to be expensive to be really good and sometimes a lesser cable will soound better in a particular situation but I'll say it again cables can make or break a system regardless of how much they cost. Ubnfortunately when a good cable comes around it becomes way over inflated in it's price and that is because the people who make these cables can get away with it. Especially if it's a hard design to copy or just expensive materials when bought in small quantities. I know a cable manufacturer who says he can build an Electraglide Fatman from scratch but he says he can buy it cheaper on Audiogon than it would cost him to build from scratch. |
Lots of great points here, it's a matter of budget and upgrading. If you are like me I have to do this in stages. Sure it would be nice to go and spend unlimited amounts. What I do is save and buy the things that I want. 1 piece at a time. This is a on going mission. Good Luck |
Herhttp://www.high-endaudio.com/index_ac.html Here is an interesting article. |
Jadem6 your also a fool. Like I said blind test. you could not tell the difference from a 12 buck cable and a 1K cable. Thats a fact. You can post all the drivel you want. Fact is you wont take me up on my blind test challenge. |
OK, your right. Cables are a hoax, snake oil, stealing, and I have a lot to gain by misleading these newbies. I love to watch these idiots fall for the ads and price. I get such a chuckle from knowing how many I have mislead. You have also got it 100% correct, if it's not in an ad, I will not even consider it. But really, I purchase solely on price. The more the better. BTW, I actually hate music, so it really doesn't matter, I just want people who have no idea about audio to come over and then I brag about my system. Hell I haven't even plugged it in yet this year. And just so no one misses the point, I hang price tags on every component because that is what I need for my ego.
You nailed it, I'm a con man and there is no way I can hear any difference between my clock radio and my stereo, at least from what I remember because as I said I have not even plugged my system in.
It is so cool how you saw right through my facade. You are the man I hope some day to emulate with your wisdom and knowledge. If I could only obtain 5% of your knowledge I would be grateful. You are my idol sir. I love you! |
Jadem6. I ahve no chip and have just regret that people like you mislead the newbies to pay for snake oil. Having worked and sold cable for many years knowing what it costs to make this stuff. Its fools like you aided by big dollar adds and corupt(Sterophile) type mags that fool the fools.
In blind test I would bet anything you could not pic Radio shack spoole wire form the The crazy 1K plus cables. Any money. Snake oil is snake oil. I dont need to brag on spending 5k on wire. To many on this site do. |
Wow...what alot of sh.t you guys are discussing!! Ever wonder why a good car radio can sound soooo much better than any HiFi system???? By the way, MIT is one of the only companies who present a strong case for their approach, backed by research...very consistent and superior at most price points! |
Nanotech? This sounds distictly pseudo scientific to me. Are you proposing nano tech cables will make a big difference? :S |
Excellent description of some extremely complicated topics put into terms even I could understand. After reading for most of the day through papers coming from Rice University and spin off company profiles into nanotechnology I see the excitement is unlimited in these peoples eyes. The discoveries that lead to nanotube were only one year old when I last looked into wires. It appears to me that the next five years are going to change the world entirely, and as a result the audio community will also change.
Sadly our capitalist society leaves the door open to the type of businessmen you describe as snake oil salesman. I agree, but they are no less criminal than the banker who charges 20+% during periods of zero inflation or software companies who design operating systems so flawed that it leaves the door open for replacement in a year. Every area of our nation, insurance, health care manufacturing... are filled with profiteers who have no purpose other than legally stealing.
That being said, it is not fair for us to jump on all the businessmen in the economy. for in reality, the bad ones are still the few (at least I try to believe) and in my experience 95% of this planet is covered with good people. The bad ones receive the press and our attention, but let's not throw the entire world out just because there are a few greedy capitalists being jerks!
I look forward to the next generation in audio, I believe vast and wonderful things are just around the corner. (Yes the sky is bright pink in my world, but I like it that way!)I will continue to chase Joe around A'gon trying to learn from one of the good guys. Thanks again for the education! |
Well, JD, I must tip my hat to you for turning this thread from one of trivial bickering to actual discussion. That's a RARE thing indeed in both Audiogon and Audio Asylum. As I alluded to above, you are a special audiophile, and we are graced by your renewed presence on this site.
Unfortunately, I have left the "scientific community" for what I feel are greener pastures from a family perspective. Though, I must say that things would have been interesting had I continued on down that path.
You brining up nanotechnology is something that really piqued memories in me. In 2000, before I completely made the leap into the field of software engineering, a group of scientists from the University of New Mexico brought me out to Albuquerque to discuss bringing me aboard a new company they had just launched. Their angle was a revolutionary process producing conductive nanomaterials such as silver, gold, platinum, palladium, etc. To be quite frank, the improvement over existing materials was on the level of orders of magnitude. I must say the prospects were fascinating.
What we soon found out was that though there was far more than tremendous interest in the products they could offer, they were seriously deficient in getting value for their hard work and creativity. The money was actually in the products produced in the next step, which is where a fair amount of my knowledge lay, and what they soon realized was a way to get them there. Over the course of the four days I was there, both sides quickly saw the potential for a most synergistic relationship.
In the end, I demurred, as I felt the risk/reward balance was not to my liking - American manufacturing being what it is today. But, I harbor serious regret today all the same - the ability to obtain a PHD in chemistry/material science and to apply what I had available to me towards audio in the long run.
In truth, of the folks I met along the way in the field, only a VERY small number were audiophiles, and my feeling is that by being in the field, and uniting folks of the type of passion and dedication such as you, JD, a lot of progress could have been made in the past five years.
Briefly, from what I have seen, I possess quite a radical view of the way things work. My two theories are amazingly simplistic, but it takes me a while to convey them to folks, no matter how small or large their scientific background is. First, material interactions are nothing more than playing with puzzles - locks and keys. Some keys fit some locks, and some don't. Not much more to know than that. Time and experience builds the understanding in a person to know what keys go with what locks. Secondly, surface area/particle size is THE most important factor once the key/lock relationship has been made. The more surface area (smaller particle size - ie. nanotechnology), the more of what I call "soldiers" (who do the work) are available.
I don't want to go too much further here, but what most people see in nanotechnology is the ability of having more "soldiers" available to them. And while THAT opens up things that we have always dreamed about, the real power, which most fail to see, is the key/lock applications. By being able to "dope" a material's properties in ways never before possible in this world, we can achieve the creation of a geometrically larger number of materials. The beauty being that we can do this with breathtaking savings.
As an example, a ratio of 55% Palladium/45% Silver makes the best conductors/resistors you can obtain, from a temperature coefficient of resistance point of view. The resistance varies almost not at all over a temperature curve. Further, these happen to be uniquely environmentally resistant as well. For the most part, the audio world has not been exposed to palldium, but in the limited instances it has, subjectiver results have been extraordinarily positive. The BIG downside is cost - Pd being over $1000/ounce, and silver being $9/ounce.
But, what if I could obtain the same or similar properties by using incredibly small amounts of Pd? With nanotechnology, the opportunity to make small amounts look like large amounts opens up possibilities that are breathtaking.
In the end, like any craft, it is the ART, not the science that is where the power lies. The science is always there, but it is the heart of the person who steers the ship to achievement via using what is before him, and solving problems.
Unfortunately, what some perceive as anger or bitterness coming from me stems from the proponderance of snake oil salesmen in audio. Folks who offer NOTHING which takes the craft forward in any direction, yet merely rebadge products manufactured by a third party with multithousand percent profit margins. Truly, I see this as borderline criminal. What is really at the root of my feelings is the potential for the scientific and engineering communities to produce REAL understanding, and ultimately improvement, in the products offered to audiophiles, and do so at what I consider fair costs to the end user. Unfortunately, we seem to be lacking a connection between the two fields to produce such a thing. |
This work is being done at frequencies many orders of magnitude higher than audio where certain effects become important. It is irrelevent at audio frequencies - just like the skin effect. |
Just to stir the pot, I have it on good authority that the "10% rule" (and indeed the "15% rule") were arbitrarily arrived at as a sales tool to coach lazy stereo store salesmen.
The synergy factor is not so easily contained within such narrow, and remarkably round-numbered parameters. |
Hi Joe,
Damn you... the problem with respecting you despite not agreeing fully is I then give consideration to your opinions. Over the last four years some truly revolutionary thinking (and in some cases actual science) has raised the bar in cable performance (my opinion) and your point was not lost on me. What I heard you say is cables have gotten expensive, not because of time, material and overhead, but rather because of the clientele and the expectations they as a mass have. This led me to a new research phase. I spent the past few days reading about different scientific discoveries and quite a bit of DIYs findings. (Many of which had hard science behind them too)
Jack Bybee as one scientist has approached the cable issue from a different angle than most of the copy-cat manufacturers are pursuing. This took me down a road of philosophies I had not seriously considered before. There are quite a few white papers coming out of University studies that are requiring some new thinking. Your personal involvement in the scientific community has given you witness to the affects of silver conductive materials and the result on different conductors. You have personal experience in the new sciences that has been adopted by our industry. Unfortunately, too many of us a skeptics (my self included) to the validity of the scientific claims. This is why I began my own personal research (which I intend to continue for some time) and rather than reading product claims and/or individual peoples experiences, Im trying to understand the fact behind the stories. The Universities used to be impossible institutions to break into for personal discovery, but now with the internet, we (the lowly citizen) can access even the most cutting edge science. NASA and the Pentagon are also good links to the research by following the information trail.
As I said I have discovered a vast amount of hard science that is being applied to conductors. Often this is for purposes not related to our industry, but the science is transferable. Conductors are a significant issue as the computing capacities increase. Transfer of massive amounts of information via electrical signal has become one of the limiting factors in increased computing speeds. Now with nanotechnology, the issues are actually more complex as we demand more from less. This is opening doors and products that just plan were not possible before today. The fact that nano-fabrication is out of the Universities and into the hands of the public opens up potential science to our industry. I am not thinking we need nanotube interconnects, what I am saying is the science that got to nanotubes is viable to us.
That being said, I wanted to respond to you and let you know you have opened my mind to new theories. I intend to pursue the research and hopefully try some personal experimentation on the DIY front. I will be sure to keep the Agon community informed as I proceed.
I wanted to personally thank you Joe for your approach with me, and my disputes with you. I think you and I have proven kind respect gets your ideas across much better than slamming and anger. You are a true gentleman and one that this community should look to as an example of how we conduct our discussions when we see things from a different perspective. This hobby, above all other things has no absolutes, and it is done for our personal enjoyment, not to be right. I think we all need to keep this perspective. And I wish to nominate Joe as our leader on this front. You sir have my 100% respect and admiration.
jd |
JD, thanks for your post here. I also feel endebted to your kind words. Further, in watching what part of your audio journey you have been kind enough to share with us over the years, I feel that there are few people in this hobby more devoted, dedicated, and methodical in wringing increasingly better performance out of every part of one's system than you.
As you said, we agree that wire has an effect on the sonics of a system. I even say the impact is substantial. In my opinion, wire is certainly a component, and when I really break things down, from our front end to our loudspeakers, our components are basically wire (think about it!).
And, as you have said, wire is overpriced. There are myriad reasons as to how this has come about, and I don't want to make this post overly long, so I will not go into why I feel we are in the fix we are today. But, I will say that if you really look into the source material of a lot of the cabling we use, the true cost is pennies on the dollars that we pay. That is not a universal truth by any means. Certain materials are of such purity that one could envision this level of pricing, though I am pretty well convinced only a very few, if any, companies are using this type of wire. Also, for companies such as Nordost, who have had to acquire the tooling and machinery to manufacture their own cable, the cost of paying for such equipment must be factored into the price otherwise they'll soon find themselves out of business.
But, again, if you put a list of the Top 10 cables in this marketplace over the past decade together, I'm fairly confident that this cable that I listed above would be on it. It's a Stereophile Recommended Component. All I'm saying is that I have a friend who sells the SAME EXACT stuff for $99/meter. I'd be more than happy to share the names with you offline of both the well known company and my friend...
Take care always,
Joe |
Hi Joe, it's a bit strange hearing some of the words coming out of your mouth on this topic. I know you appreciate the fact that wire does affect sonic quality and that different construction techniques in dielectric will change an identical wire from harsh to smooth. I have often agreed with you over the years, and believe you to be a wise audiophile. I have tried so many under $150 cables and attempted to build many more, but my quest for the Holly Grail has failed every time until I spent money. I agree it's overpriced, and believe me, if a $99 wire could match the performance I would be happy to sell my investment. Please let me in on the Holly Grail you found, I would love to try them.
Maple, I have read through your posts not knowing who you are. Clearly you have a large and heavy chip you are carrying around. You tend to be more prone to trash talking any company YOU feel is a rip off, and have very little value you have added to this site. I'm sorry you are so deeply burdened with this horrid weight, I will pray for your torchered soul my friend. |
Maple - you have hit the nail entirely on the head. People just want to throw money away. I recently saw a nordost "dem" at a hsow - except it wasnt a dem, they just talked about how their cable was a bargain even at 1000s per metre. A comparison with a $100 cable would have been very instructive if they have faith in their product. |
yep, I love to brag. That must be my motive... |
Well, I guess it's funny, but it's now almost a full four years after I submitted that post, but I feel even STRONGER in that opinion now. The price of wire is, in the majority of cases, set by the type of artificial means Mapleleafs3 laid out.
As an example, I personally have a friend who sells a cable for $99 that the rest of the high end audio world gladly pays $1400 for. It's EXACTLY the same cable, apart from the solder and terminations. And, before anyone asks, the soldering job of my friend actually surpasses the more expensive cable. Go figure. He even feels dirty about selling it for $99, that's the kind of profit we're talking about.
Another anecdote, a dearly departed friend of mine used to tell me about a friend of his who is one of the longtime biggest cable guys in this hobby. I mean, beyond household name. Well, my friend, who was also beyond a household name, wound up needing an extra interconnect at a high end audio show a while back. His cable friend had one of his employees fetch one to save the day. When my friend asked his buddy what the cost of the cable was, as he wanted to reimburse him, the answer he received was, "The cost is $3000. But, don't worry, it doesn't cost me anywhere near that. In fact, why don't you just keep it..." Hmmm, didn't sound like something he was too worried about.
Again, different wire SOUNDS different. It's even critically important. But, use your head, and you'll get the best for a lot less than the rest pay. |
Trelja. you are so on the mark here. The problem here is that agreat deal of the posters here have more money than brains and need to brag on how much they spend. I have sold wire and cable for years. Have worked with Mfgs on many specialtiy cables. The cost to produce world class wire is low double digit . Its hype and lies and tom folory. As you stated trejla 500 gets you World class and will compete against some of the thousands of dollar rip off cable.
Dont let the mags influence you.
Reminds me of a story told by a friend in the cable business. He went to a show with a great Interconnect at 149.00. It was awesome sounding. He got no Interest in it at all. Was considered chaep. The following year he took same cable had it done in 3 colors and priced it at 299.00 599.00 999.00. He picked up 14 dealers with that same same no one wanted when it was 149.00. That sums up what cable is all about. Snake oil.
Good cable makes a difference. But you dont need to spend more than a few hundred dollars. |
I've found of far greater value than spending money on cables has been the simple purchase of rockwall or owens cornering 703 and making your own bass traps & diffusors,will smoke any cable change. |
10% rule is way too much for something that has such little audible effect on sound (electronics engineers will predict that after a minimum basic size of copper cable is met then it has zero audible effect and ABX testing of ordinary cables against costly cables seems to support this view...)
A few hundred dollars is all you should typically need for all cables. If you are continuously tweaking around with cables then very likely you are not quite happy with the overall sound of your system or your room acoustics => changing speakers will have the biggest impact => cables may make you feel better but they are unlikely to make a significant audible difference 9 unless you have a problem) |
"anecdotal evidence is not sufficient" Call Dr. Floyd Tool, director of National Research Council in Canada. He only believes in specs and he will tell you I heard all the differences presented to me, well at least 96% of them. |
Come to my store, I will show you differences. My biggest customers for cables are the engineers that told me cables can't make a difference. Some of them are on this sight as believers.
Fact still remains that we only know how to measure 50% of what we hear. The human brain and healthy ears can detect all frequencies, dynamics, and differences in compression at high volumes vs. low volumes with multiple instruments compared to solo instruments and phase relationships with all of the above all at the same time in real time and no scope can come close to that.
Same way humans can have insight and sense trouble without direct sensory information. It is because we have souls that are far more capable than we give credit for.
I will agree that if basics are right, you can get good sound without spending tons. I'm just the kind of guy that can tell big differences in tires, cloths, soap, spices, and women. |
To answer the original question, in general I believe you can get the job done pretty good at about 10 percent of system cost, and no higher than 25 percent. Beyond that, I would probably start replacing components or speakers. Of course the "cost no object" crowd can spend as much as they like, and DIYers can do it much less expensively. |
Filters on my speaker cables??? No no no! Only on the MAINS cables. Your comment is a bit absurd ;)
I would be interested to hear this huge difference demonstrated - so far noone has been able to meet this challenge. And indeed rigourous scientific double blind tests have also yet to reveal a difference - anecdotal evidence is not sufficient.
Your final comment is very revealing - the belief in cables is indeed on a par with religious belief. The only differences between cables are those due to LCR, connection and insulation etc - well understood engineering principles. that dont justify outrageous costs. |
Oh, one more thing I forgot. Brizonbiovizier, if you are using filters on your speaker cables you are greatly reducing the frequency extension of any cable used and it wouldn't surprise me at all that you hear no differences.
It would be like trying to judge different grain levels of camera lenses after putting a non reflective coating on the lens that hurts the performance of all the lenses but hurts the top performers worse making them close to the same. |
Everyone, I would like to expand on what I said do to the post Brizonbiovizier made. I wont repeat some things so just read my post to bring you up to speed on my opinions.
Cables make a huge difference IF the components in your system are well matched, IF the equipment is capable of outrages bandwidth, IF the room the system is in is not over damped or rings, AND IF multiple ingredients a performance are equally important to the listener such as:
Dynamics,
Height perception,
Width and depth of sound stage,
Relaxed detail (not forced)
Roundness of instruments.
Reflections of sound in space,
Texture,
Tonal stability
Leading edge speed
Natural decay
Recreation of distant ambient noise
Breathing of emotion of the artist.
I have done double blind tests several times in my career including tests done at Harmon International and at the Audio Institute in Canada. I picked the brand of electronics, speakers, and cables 96% of the time and when I have explained to people what to listen for while with them one on one, over half the people were able to get scores above 80%.
The audiophiles I know that don't hear differences in cables are the ones that can only concentrate on one or two things at a time.
These are the same people that can't drive with their knees on the steering wheel while they eat and talk on the phone at the same time.
Nothing wrong with that but you can't tell others there is no difference in cables any more than I can tell you there is a God. One day we all will know for sure. |
Jade - if it is fact then please provide the scientific proof of those "facts". Lets see you tell the difference between these cables in a blind test for a start. The results I feel will be very instructive. As for doubting my honesty - you have no basis for doing so except in your imagination where you have concoted a rationale for my viewpoint being currect without actually having to address my arguements. The reason for this being that you have apparently bought heavily into the expensive cable philosophy and wish to defend your expenditure. People used to state with absolute certainty that the world was flat and doubted the honesty of sea farers that had circumnavigated the globe... The truth is a local high end shop lent me a load of cables to tempt me into a purchase after I bought the turntable from them - having bought the rest of the system from another source. This explains what you observed in about not fitting my system philosophy without having to invoke your explanation. Dont be so quick to judge! I actually also spent several months with blue heaven nordost as they were provided with the system. I would have said the amps were more independent of hype than any other component!
As for my system you havent actually heard it so again its pure supposition on your behalf. You assume that because I dont hear the huge difference then there is something wrong with my system so I do not hear the difference which is a circular argument whereby you start by assumming the outcome. Please consider the alternative whereby my system is so revealing that it reveals beyond any doubt that cable effect are exaggerated. In fact I have paid great attention and time to both isolation and cabling - including the provision of lab grade filters on the mains cables. No skimping was involved - in each case I aimed for the very best that could be achieved. It just so happens that this can be achieved with cables very cheaply, if $1k canbe said to be "cheap" (and the townshend rack is hardly cheap!) The next step for me is to upgrade to active, swap the pre and phono and use something like an active SEM bench for isolation. I also purchased a custom built wally tractor to optimise the alignment of the cartridge.
I can assure you I have heard the very best of which the
deck is capable and I also assure that I have taken great pains over every aspect of the system - I come from a technical engineering background and apply sound scientific principles in every instance to good effect. Wires are not complicated - I am used to working at rf where wire problems are very much more severe and still nothing like the cable manufacturers claim. I refer you to Selfs work on difference amplifiers in cable comparisons.
BTW the $60k system would be the UK price in £ converted to $ - doubtless Bryston amps would be much cheaper in the USA.
I appreciate you are not attacking and that you have firm belief nonetheless I feel I must stand up for plausible science in this debate. There is no scientific justification for cable claims and no study has ever substantiated the presence of subjective effects. I suggest that the gentleman here get a custom cable built and compare with nordost et al and decide for himself if it is worth paying $5000 instead of $50 ;). Power however is another matter and there is sound technical basis for some claims in this area.
|
Duane, you make some excellent points. I have no way, nor a need to verify your claims, but you are right on the money with the comments that much of this is stumbled upon. I recently re-cabled my system with Kubala-Sosna cables saving a lot of money from my fully cabled with Nordost Valhalla. K-S cables were developed by starting with a sound scientific concept. They then built a cable to fit that concept, and. each iteration of the development was fully documented, and every iteration was listened to for sonic quality. As they discovered a point where the sonic quality was to their expectation they flagged it. Then they continued to push the performance from there. After an extensive time of trial and error, they eventual got to a place where they knew they had it. This proved out to be the best they could achieve, given the science behind the development, and they discovered they could improve no further. This is what they call their Emotion line. There were two other significant points in the development stage, these are the other two lines of the series.
I assume, but have no first hand knowledge that they will continue to review the science and performance. At some point I assume some new scientific concept (derived often times from the small guy) will provoke a new line to be developed.
My point is I found their approach to be extremely logical and as scientific as cable development gets. It also proved very successful in the performance these cables deliver.
What I have seen with most cable companies is a blind march down the same road they were on ten, fifteen years ago. Cardas, Kimber, XLO, NBS, MIT, Transparent... have done nothing to revolutionize their products; they simply keep trying different dielectric combinations. A few have put new science to there products, Shunyata Research and Nordost are two examples. This has allowed them to make new "better" lines to sell, but often times the performance of these cables has inherent problems, covered up by one aspect of betterment. The rest are simply knock offs with some different construction techniques. (Of course all this is simply my opinion, but that is the purpose of a site like this, so shoot at me if you will. I'm simply sharing...)
The cable business is not voodoo and it is not snake oil, it is fact. Cables make a difference. The cable business is however more often than not a scam. Few of the products in the marketplace are worth the price, and in many cases can deteriorate the sonic quality. These products have done more damage to this industry than anything else I can think of.
Brizonbiovizier, you are correct, there are some great values that exist. You may also be right that they had good engineering behind them. You could even be right about them bettering most products; it is here I do not have your personal experiences. I have tried many home brewed cables, hoping to find the Holy Grail, but form my personal experiences; $200 interconnects sound like $200 interconnects. I do not know if you have ever spent time making your own cables, twisting heavy gauge wires, wrapping Teflon around a run of wire, and then wrapping copper or silver foil, then wrapping... But it takes a lot of time. If a Guy can make a cable for $100, he either is homeless because he forgot to charge for his time, or he slapped together a wire inside a cotton liner. Building cables by hand takes a ton of time (if we expect them to be reproducible.) The bigger companies often become complacent and use machines to mass produce. This is fine, if they are going to charge a couple hundred dollars to pay for there investment, but as you have pointed out, the products are far to often poorer quality for inflated prices.
This does not however mean all cables are hype and over priced. If a cable can make the level of difference some cables have made on my system, then I will buy them if I can afford to. This does not mean I was scammed or anything, it means the cable I buy does the best for what I can afford. For me to doubt your experience would be wrong. I have no knowledge or experience with what you are using. For you to blanket claim you cables will beat brand Y is also wrong. Your experience is the cables you have tried were not that big of deal. That could be a number of issues including your system has some excellent components but there are also a few holes, the cables you have tried may have been more hype than science a, you may have stumbled upon the Holy Grail, or what ever.
I do somehow doubt you have tried most of the product out there, and therefore will take your experience as just that. Your experience. I do however want to point out why I doubt your being fully honest in your experience, your $60,000 system as claimed adds up to $49,965 with $16,500 into the analog front end. Im just pointing out you may be exaggerating the truth regarding cables as you have tried with your system. I am not attacking you for I agree with much of what you have said; I am simply questioning your claim (mostly regarding your experience with Valhalla) because it simply does not fit your approach to your system. Other than the amps you have built a system very much independent of the hype in audio products. It would surprise me if you seriously spent any time with Valhalla, it simply does not seem to fit your approach to the hobby. That is actually a complement, you have clearly done a lot of research and made your decisions independent of the press, I like that.
Having said that, you have made claims I seriously doubt you can back up. It is blanket statements like yours that confuse so many people looking to get the very best from their equipment. I would feel very comfortable in stating I do not believe you have heard the capabilities of your $16,500 analog front end. My reason for this comments, and I think you are quite typical in this, that most people have invested very large dollars (large is a relative term) and more often than not have skimped on some area of the system. (this is the entire point of this thread, what percent of your budget
) This leaves many with the weakest link being the level they achieve. Often this is in cables, racks and/or isolation. Somehow we can spend $16,000 on a pair of speakers, but have no investment in isolation, or a couple hundred dollars in wire. To my mind, this thinking is so skewed and illogical.
Sadly these are the battle lines we have developed. Wire is wire, these isolation products are snake oil, and there is no science
Why so many have trouble grasping these issues as important is beyond me and why the defiance by many is even more puzzling. I made a promise to myself when I came back to this site that I would not enter discussions about wire, power and the like, because all that happens is anger. But here I am, right in the middle.
I guess I just feel the truth needs to represent too. So Please understand, nothing I have tried to say was written maliciously, for that would progress this discussion no where. If it comes off as attacking, I apologies, its a tough subject to not sound attacking. My only reason to share on this site is to help others learn from my experiences and find new friends who share a common interest. I have no interest in a war over something as meaningless as cable talk.
jd |
Allot $100 per interconnect, $200 for your speaker cable and $100 per filtered mains cable and get the whole lot custom made. Solidly enginered cables from any reasonably competent engineer will match anything out there at even a 100 times the price. The whole cable issue is vastly overrated IMHO. The concept of "bad wires" is fallacious - wires just have varying LCR that may make some SLIGHT difference to your system. Of far more importance is the earthing and connection arragements - the rest is voodoo. I have a $60k system and I spent less than $1k on all my filtered mains cables, interconnects and speaker cable. I tried nordost valhalla, kimber etc and they were all worse, or at best no better. |
The reason cables cause as much controversy as politics is because most companies that have a great sounding cable made it by accident and can't duplicate the performance in other models because they don't know how. I have heard expensive cables sound bad and expensive sound good. I have heard some cheap cables sound good too.
Add to the confusion the fact that a lot of respected audio equipment is not as good as believed and you have cables compensating for bad equipment like Firestone did for Ford.
The way to really hear huge differences in cable is to have electronics capable of bandwidth in the mega hertz ranges. There are 4 or 5 good cable engineers out there that understand electrons on a molecular level and those are the ones that make the best cables regardless of the price. Most of these companies of course are unheard of brands that magazines ignore and so the true artists go hungry as they always have.
Some of these people have had their designs stolen from well known names who can't design beyond their first fluke. |
go with the cables you can afford (new or used ) which sound best in your system...
also it makes sense to isolate your lines if possible.. |
You are correct, but if you had good electronics then all you would hear is your bad cables. Your system is only as good as the weakest link. Well put, JD. I certainly wouldn't expect Pavarotti to stretch his lungs with a Mr. Microphone. |
Chrfor, never say never. Some day you may be lucky enough to be enlightened, perhaps.
It's interesting to me, when this thread was started it was full of people who spoke without knowledge, and argued for the sake of argument. During these past years more development dollars have been placed on cable materials and methods of construction. This effort has taken us from one step above Monster cable to some jaw dropping products.
I hear the comments about blind a/ab comparisons and double blind testing, with these camps continuing to speak with such conviction that we would not hear a difference. How absurd these comments have become. No one with any experience with high end equipment could continue to have this view, yet somehow they continue to exist.
I simply shake my head and laugh. For the rest of the people here, we continue to learn and experiment, finding more and more from the electronics. When we started this thread, I was in the camp of the absurd in that 1/3 of my budget was spent on cables. As I look at the virtual systems posted here, I'm now seeing more and more people learning that the cables may well be the most important factor in our system.
Chrfor, perhaps you need to re-examine your confusion. You state our cables will only point out the poor electronics. You are correct, but if you had good electronics then all you would hear is your bad cables. Your system is only as good as the weakest link. I read from your comments this is your electronics. Sorry for you, but as I said, never say never!
jd
|
If you buy a very expensive cable, it's only camouflage because you have poor electronics and you try to get the less poor sound from your system. I have a 10000$ system and I will never spend more than 2 to 3 hundreds on cables, even if one day I have a 60000$ system simply because I chose the right electronics. This is like shopping for the best produce, cooking in All Clad, and using Morton's salt. You have no idea what you're missing. Oh well... |
There's no 10% rule. Cables are used to cary a signal and it should do it without loss. It is not a question of $/ft. It is not true neither that you have to spend a thousand $ on a cable to achieve that. If you buy a very expensive cable, it's only camouflage because you have poor electronics and you try to get the less poor sound from your system. I have a 10000$ system and I will never spend more than 2 to 3 hundreds on cables, even if one day I have a 60000$ system simply because I chose the right electronics. |
I think cable upgrades are important, but way overhyped. I would venture to say, besides a deeper black level and lowering the background noise floor, if you blind test most people, using different cords, plus a stock cord, that you would not notice a tremendous difference between the $150.00 cord and $1000.00 cord.
I have a friend who owns a high end audio store and he told me that cables are like the socks of the clothes world. Easy to stock, easy to sell and lots of margin. |
Update....found some old MIT MH 750 shotgun speaker cable laying around my dealer. Upgraded speakers to Totem Winds driven by Krell 400xi second time I've bought it). Startlingly good...open, detailed, 3D soundstage beyond walls, dynamic as hell and natural sounding...relaxed! Perhaps at this level I will have to jump at the chance. Originally $1200+...still some around for $550 or less! |
Check out Arthur Salvatore's site, high-endaudio.com. He's a subjectivist who only believes in what he hears, yet he has a whole section called "The Cable Scam" |
Indeed - I have a £20K system in which I spent less than 5% on cables - all custom made. I compared with cables cost 100 times 25 times as much and there was no advantage |
Wow...everybody has alot to say! Problem is most of it don't mean jack. Experiment, experiment and then experiment some more..start cheap and only go as high as necessary. Do not read reviews. People with credentials are the worst...mostly spec driven despite having the ultimate cable testers on either side of their heads! I gave up the ultra high-end because of just such mental angst. The music should be first...even if it's being played on a table top radio...all else is obsession mostly! |
Metaphysics started this chat in 2001 and hasn't posted in 4 years. Wow, this is the longest thread i've ever seen.
Anyway, after I had great speakers ($7k silverlines) and tube amps ($6k of Cary tubes) and sources ($5k turntable, $5k CD player), then speaker and interconnects made a big difference.
I made my own cables and used for many years. Replacing my $60 home made thick gauge cables with Kimber Monocles made a massive difference. The system "breathes" now... it has much more dynamic range.
I've done much A/B testing of cheapo interconnects and Kimber silver interconnects (over $1k each retail). There is a major noticeable difference in imagining, 3D layering, frequency rolloff, etc. The silver interconnects worked far better on my tube system than copper interconnects. But, I suspect impedance matching is a factor here.
In my $29K system, $4k are cables. In my experience, the impact of cables is (in order of importance):
1. speaker cables
2. interconnects between source and preamp
3. interconnects between preamp and amp
4. power cables (minor diff)
5. digital cables (no noticeable diff so far)
DJ |
Metaphysics,
Holy cow,yes you have come to your senses. My system is in the 75k range and I have spent less than 1k on cables. Cables important properties include inductance resistance and in some cases capacitance. Interconnects require shielding. Buy very pure,large gauge low inductance cables with good connecters and you are done. If retail is more than 2k-3k (used sub 50%) you are being robbed. It can be done for less than 1k. Most "high end" cable companies buy their cables from manufacturers and retail them @ 2000% profit.Any component you buy is typicaly retailed @ 5 times cost of manufacture. The reason some of thse cables make your system "sound better" despite not being low inductance,low resistance is that they actually roll off frequeny extremes making so so systems that are not flat at these frequencies more "musical". Take the money and buy better speakers or better source or room improvements.
Jim |
I think you could have spent 10% of that and bought custom cbales and not been able to tell the difference. Active components are far more important IMHO |
Rules of thumb never work in high end. Like the saying goes, all rules are made to be broken. |
My primary system retails for about $15,000; I actually have $8,700 into the components, and could have done better had I purchased used speakers.
Okay, nine grand should be able to buy you great sound, and this stuff is as good or better than ones I've heard costing the same or considerabally more.
I used a dedicated line, upgraded outlet, $300 worth of interconnects, stock power cords and a $50 surge protector.
If I were going to make one dramatic investment, it would be in upgrading the speakers. Sorry to be on of the naysayers, and please don't flame me, but plain, old-fashioned science does not back up most of the hoo-hah around audiophile cables and power cords (and quite a few reputatable component manufacturers will tell you as much). |
My system retails for $30,600 without the cables. I'm getting ready to spend $8,700 on two interconnects and a set of speaker cables. When I tried the new cables I found they elevated the whole sound of the system more than changing any one component. They offered me sound that I didn't even know my system was capable of. Down the road I'd like to change the power cords as well.
I recently sold my Hydra 4 in favor of running dedicated lines. A friend helped me and it wasn't a big job at all. I have a dedicated line and outlet for each component. The dedicated lines offered me a more natural open sound with much better range then either the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet I had or the Shunyata Hydra with a Taipan power cord (you need a 20AMP connector). The retail on the Shunyata products is $1,350. I installed the dedicated outlets using Porter Ports for a total of $200. That was by far the greatest upgrade I've ever made for the least amount of money. |
We've done some blind testing using digital cables and the winner was always the same cable in several different systems. This specific cable makes use of resistive terminations as described in this article at Borbely Audio. While Borbely talks about a low grade cable with these terminations working better than a high grade cable without these terminations, the cable i'm talking about was designed to work well in every aspect and then the terminations added. That is, it uses a specially shaped solid core silver center conductor to minimize skin effect, high grade Teflon dielectric and then a braided silver shield. I have this cable in both BNC and RCA form and they both work very well. The manufacturer also made this in a copper version at a later date, which was still some 10+ years ago. When i called them up to get some info on the silver cables, they couldn't even recall ever making such a cable or any of the specifics about it. I know that this was a standard item though as i've got at least three of them here and my Brother is running one too. From what i've seen, none of their digital cables after this series makes use of materials or designs that are anywhere near as good as what i've described here. The profit margin was probably only 500% rather than their goal of 1000%, hence the decision to revert back to less expensive materials and production techniques. Please take note that Borbely makes mention of impedance matching being an "old trick" to RF people. As most of the regulars here know, i've discussed impedance matching of cabling and components for many years now. I've specifically mentioned the fact that one obtains the best performance possible when the output impedance of the source component matches the nominal impedance of the cabling used and the input impedance of the load. I've also stated that i only know of one specific manufacturer that has designed their entire product line to do this, so it is not very common within the field of audio design. As such, the benefits of such a design could only be fully achieved if using that one brand of components in every position of one's system. Outside of interconnects, selecting a loudspeaker cable that displays the proper nominal impedance is also very important. Test results demonstrated the superior bandwidth and linearity of such a design was presented by Audioholics a short while ago. It was no coincidence that this cable, which i've recommended for several years now, beat every other cable tested by a wide margin. The fact that the folks conducting these tests at Audioholics are basically "cable naysayers", and their test results DID show a measurable difference in electrical performance between different makes, models and geometries, demonstrates that there is a method to the madness when designing and purchasing cabling for a specific application. As i've said before, spec's can tell one quite a bit about the sonics and measurable levels of performance. That is, if the spec's were properly obtained and they are properly interpreted. If such weren't the case, we wouldn't be able to move forward in terms of electronic technology and would still be in the dark ages. Cabling is no different. You don't have to spend a lot of money on cabling in order to obtain excellent performance. You just have to buy competently designed active components, and therein lies the major problem. Sean > |
At a recent audio party, we tried a half dozen digital cables between transport, and DAC. It was a blind test. We had: On one end of the scale was a cheapy, with the three RCAs, red white, and yellow. At the other end of the spectrum was a thousand dollar Virtual Dynamics digital. In between were some silver connectors, one I remember being "Homegrown."
All the connectors sounded the same, except, darn, the thousand dollar VD. It sounded better. |
