Maril555: Heh-heh. Robert at Star Sound has been great. If it's any consolation, I got killed on the rest of the brass; I expect the total nears 600. I hope to be able to post a detailed project description shortly. Menwhile, the advice of Slipknot1 & Trelja is well taken: we're getting up to the price point of pretty nice commercial stuff.
John |
Slipknot's suggestion of Boosblocks in very well taken: 24X18X1.5 $86, 24X18X2.25 $107. I have one of their blocks, put to the more conventional use of a cutting board -- very nice. The blocks come with a very minimal oil finish, which might be an advantage, depending on your tastes. You might try to get Boos to ship unfinished, if you want to stain. Boos has a lot of local dealers, which could save you a reasonably hefty shipping bill.
In contrast, a local mill here in St. Louis asks for $175 for a 5'X2'X1.5" piece, which gets you your three shelves for a bit less than Boos, but with more work at your end, depending on how much sanding is required.
On the rods, another source is Mutual Screw. They don't seem to do brass, but they do zinc plated steel, and $66 gets you 2 very beefy 1.25"X3' rods (http://mutualscrew.com/products.php). A decent bit less than the brass, but less attractive. Do the metalugists out there have any thoughts on zinc plating?
One possibility for the footers is the relatively inexpensive spike kits sold by Adona and others. These might be mounted to the inside of the rods on the bottom shelf. Thoughts on that?
Two questions on technique:
Sounds like you go 1/16" larger than the rod size with the holes. Is a drill press mandatory?
Some people suggest clamping the shelves together and drilling the holes through all the shelves at once, to assure alighnment. Any thoughts on this? Drilling a hole through five or six inches of maple is no joke, even with a drill press.
Now, the big question: This is not quite a budget DIY project, say $500 for a nice three shelf rack, and very possibly more. $500 doesn't get you into the highest end stuff of course, but it does get you into some stuff that people seem to like pretty well, like a three shelf rack from SolidSteel (new). I like the look of the flexi design, but can anyone weigh in on the bang for buck of the overall project, regards both visuals and sonics?
Thanks to everyone; this has all been very helpful!
John |
Thanks, Palasr!
I'm about convinved to give it a whirl.
How did you do the jig? Just a perfectly square piece with a hole to line up the pilot?
Best,
John
PS: "Measure twice and cut once," indeed. If you've got reservations now, you'll be making 'em later. ;-) |
Thanks to everyone for their suggestions!
Shersta: Elegant solution, having a machine shop point the rods. Could you still thread things on at that end? Don't suppose it matters too much.
Jdubs: My noodling around the web found only 3' and 6' rods. If you need 4' and go with steel of a reasonable diameter, it might not be prohibitive to get 6 footers cut down. I expect a good shop could re-tap the threads at the cut end, too. How many shelves do you need? You might be able to put 4 on 3' rods, depending on shelf and gear thickness. The design is so open, I doubt cooling would be an issue.
Dbld: I'd just picked up a scrap of sheetmetal to make a template as in Richard's helpful instructions, but I like your full size template idea too. Question: why should it matter if the holes in the template match the size of the pilot on the bit? Mightn't one drill the hole to match exactly a center punch, mark all the holes on the piece with the punch, and then drill it? Seeps like there would be next to no slop that way.
I might well be interested in the cherry, depending on timing, etc. I'm now in St. Louis, but I'm through PA a lot, for work and family. Feel free to email, jdoris@artsci.wustl.edu
John |
Hi Jim, and thanks for the lead! I've already emailed Tony. Could you give a report once you've seen the blocks, re how much finishing is required, etc.?
Thanks!
John |
Thanks for the update, Jim.
I've got two 24"x18"X3" maple blocks coming from Tony; cutting boards for gifts, @ $101 ea., shipped. I'm tempted to go for cherry for my rack, a wood I'm partial to; Tony offers it at the same price as maple. Are there strong reasons to prefer maple, which seems to be the more typical choice?
On another part of the equation, http://www.jamestowndistributors.com has 3'X3/4" brass rod for > $35 ea., the best I've seen. They're a boatbuilding supply place, with a lot of cool hardware. Their brass acorn nuts come to a point, and might make viable footers, though they do not list 3/4".
Cheers,
John |
Hello Again, Richard.
The audiopoints look a clean way to go, if a bit pricey. Leaning that way, but do you have ideas about how to handle leveling when using them? I'd be shocked if the floor of my 100 yr. old house was anything like level.
Best,
John |
Maril555: Looks like audiopoints does a version that is threaded to fit 3/4-10 rods. Not cheap, though, at about 42$ a pop. As Richard's last post indicates, you will still need to think through the leveling issue, if you go that way. Another, much cheaper (but less elegant), way to go would be to get a set of spikes from adona, or oregondv.com, etc., and mount them to the inside of the posts on the bottom shelf. I'm leaning towards Audiopoints, on Richard's advice, which is forcing me to resist the temptation Dbld notes, to go for rods thicker than 3/4". It would be cool to have really beefy rods, but my web-noodling has persuaded me that it is harder to find attendant hardware, such as points and acorn nuts, to fit the larger sizes.
John |
Slipknot raises a good question: How thick does the rod need to be? I handled some 3/4" stock today, and it struck me as a bit slight, but it ain't bending in this application, either. Put a dollar value on the question: Is an 1/8" thicker rod with Audiopoints worth $120 more than an 1/8" thinner rod with Salamander feet?
Maril555: Haven't handled the materials yet, so this is speculative. But you might get a tighter assembly "bottoming out" the rods in the cones and using the bottom nut on the bottom shelf to level it, and build up from there. The locknut option is also a likely one, at the cost of 4 more nuts. Can't say which would be easier.
John |
Gordus: I just had the same experience with Jamestown. Guess I dallied too long. The price of brass (which may well continue to rise, I'm told) makes this a more than budget project, for sure; I just spent about $160 @ McMaster Carr for the nuts and washers alone (!). John |
Slipknot1: And that's before you do anything about footers; go with the fancier options and you are into it for another $175 or so. Sheesh! Starting to have a lot of rack options, for that money. I'll try not to dwell on your "point of reference"!
John |
Greetings!
Finally got my rack built. Thanks to Richard, Slipknot, and everyone else for their imagination and good advice. Heres an after action report:
The Finished Product:
4 Shelf Flexi-Rack: Brass Fittings and Maple Butcher Block
Shelf dimensions: 23.5 Wide x 21 Deep x 1.5 Thick
Usable shelf space: 20 Wide x 21 Deep
Space between shelves: 12 (bottom), 8, 8
Height: 37.75 (floor to top of hex nuts on top shelf)
Weight (estimated): 110 lbs
Comments on Finished Product:
This is not a petit piece of furniture. Think of a small apartment sized refrigerator, minus the freezer section.
The 3 rods yielded ample shelf space for a 4 shelf unit. Plenty of room for my beefy Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono on bottom shelf, and for standard sized components (like my Marsh Pre and Jolida CDP) on the two remaining 8 inner shelves. There might be a problem if one had two components that required top access, say if a top loading CDP and a turntable; the 8 space might make dealing with a TL CDP awkward. The open design means cooling is not an issue.
Materials:
4 3/4 x 10 Brass Threaded Rods (from McMaster-Carr); $47.48 x 4; $7. 25 SH; $ 197.17
4 Brass Acorn Nuts 3/4x10, $17.36;
35 Brass Thick Flat Washers 25/32 ID, 13/8 OD $ 95.34;
30 3/4 x 10 Brass Hex Nuts $46.80;
$5.00 SH (McMaster Carr); Total for nuts etc, $164. 40
4 2 Audiopoint Internal Thread (#2.0AP-1KINT) $41.99 ea.; 4 Coupling Discs (#APCD2), $7.49 ea.; $10.85 SH (Star Sound Technologies); $ 208.77
1 Maple Butcher Block Counter Top 8 x 25 x 1.5 (Purchased Locally); $180.00
1 Bottle Boiled Walnut Oil $10.00
Total Materials: $760.34
Comments on Materials:
Given the rising cost of metals, not a super cheap project. For comparison, the Mapleshade Sampson 4 shelf rack is currently $995 plus SH; they use 1.25 stainless steel rods. At current prices, other well -regarded commercial racks, like SolidSteel, are competitive, new or used.
McMaster-Carr was the most reasonable provider for brass, overall, when I shopped.
Boos makes excellent butcher blocks 24 x 18 x 1.5 for around $60 ea, around $100 for 2.5 thick. Although I like the look of the counter top I used (lots of color variation and imperfections for character), Id probably now use the Boos blocks (Id purchased the counter top for a different project ) since the labor savings would for me offset the added cost.
The Walnut Oil is a great product. A slightly higher sheen oil finish, that dries a bit harder, and adds a bit of an attractive reddish hue. Much easier than poly and the like, and arguably better looking.
Given what Id already spent, I splurged on the Audio Points. Robert at Star Sounds was very helpful, and I ended up believing in the product. Also, Audio Points make a very simple way to deal with footers. Again, reduced labor a plus for me.
Technique:
Cut butcher block to size
Round edges with router
Drill countersink holes with Forstner bit at depth and OD of washers, so washers will sit flush with finished surface.
Drill 3/4 inch holes for rods, centers 1.75 on diagonal from corner.
Sand
Finish
Assemble, building from ground up. Ensure shelves are parallel with combination square set to desired spacing. Tighten nuts. Place in desired location, leveling with Audio Points.
Comments on Technique:
The woodwork was done by a carpenter/furniture builder friend of mine, so except for the assembly, my knowledge is second hand.
Drill press was equipped with a jig that allowed setting the holes w/o templates and the like.
With the bits we used, a 3/4 bit made holes with sufficient play for assembly.
Unfortunately, although Robert at Star Sounds recommends tightening nuts only hand tight, we needed to go a bit tighter for a stable structure.
Wiping off some of the machining grease on the rods made the nuts turn much easier, probably because the grease contained filings from manufacturing which tended to jam the nuts.
Countersinking the washers, although it increases the possibility of difficulty in assembly, gave the piece a cleaner look, and might marginally increase usable shelf space. Recommended.
Help of a friend is recommended, both for assembling and placing the rack (to avoid butchering hardwood floors), and because turning all the $%%^%$@ nuts is a drag.
The Audio Points leveled the rack beautifully, even on my 100 year old hardwood floor. Per Roberts instructions, I did not use lock nuts or the like. We figured 1.5 of rod below the bottom shelf, to allow space for nuts, and play for the Audio Points in leveling.
Id reckon the labor at 5-8 hrs; for me, 4 times that shopping and figuring it all out.
General Comments:
Visually, the rack is not unattractive, though it is a bit industrial looking, and would be more at home in a post-modern loft than my antique house. Im reasonably pleased in this regard, though, and I personally think it looks as good as most price competitive racks, and I dont like the look of many much more expensive racks, with exceptions like Rix duly noted.
Sonically, I cant tell folks what they would most like to know, since I have not carefully A/Bed it with competitors. I do think my system sounds noticeably better (more vibrant and articulate, esp. in the bass) than did my previous set-up, but that was cobbled together shelving ($0.00).
Functionally, in addition to the ready cooling, the open design may facilitate wire management, as it does for me my outlet is directly beside the rack.
Overall, hard to give a bottom line. Had I known the likely cost going in, Id have carefully considered other options, but I do like the rack pretty well, both visually and (so far as I am in a position to judge) sonically.
Thanks again!
John |
Hi Again!
Thanks for the good cheer!
OK, Yioryos, I'll put my rack up for $375. Just Kidding! Wonder how long I'd have to wait though, given cost of brass. You've of course a point about resale, although if one could get 50%, that w'd be pretty good -- I look to pay %60 for my components.
On the Mapleshade. They use stainless, not brass: some people prefer the sonics of brass. I certainly prefer the cosmetics. I also expect there's some who would prefer the AudioPoints as footers -- StarSouunds certainly gets good press. On the other hand, I think the MS shelves are one piece, which some might prefer to block. Anyone got a ballpark on their shipping? I'm guessing north of $100, to many places.
Timrhu: How does the granite effect costs? I think I've seen a company in Oregon selling a three shelf granite flexi for $1800 (!).
Spencer: Should have pics this wkend. If you, or anyone else, wants a peek, drop me a line.
Cheers,
J |
