Bryston 4B3 vs Mac MC462 vs Pass Labs X250.8, OR... GRYPHON Diablo 300?

Hi Kevin,
It was a while back now so I cannot recall if the 19K included the GST.  Yes the dealer is the one in Vancouver. 

If it's a different unit than the one that was there at the time, the dealer will need to price it in accordance with how much they spent to get the demo unit.  For example for the demo I was looking at, they may have acquired it at a lower cost. Having said that, feel free to negotiate but also to be fair, you should be willing to walk away if they don't agree to your price.

About demo units, be advised:  The dealer may not know the history of the unit in question; it may have had many previous lives as a traveling demo for all you know.  They couldn't confirm the history for me of the demo they had at the time, which for me made it a non-starter (could have traveled the world at conferences, etc). They had bought the demo from Gryphon who had previously used it as a demo I think.
In general I'm still totally satisfied that I purchased the best amp (considering separates or integrated) that I could for the price, for my tastes.  And that doesn't happen often with me - I'm not one to be positively biased simply because I've spent a lot on something.  In fact it's usually the opposite as I have such high expectations relative to cost.  Couldn't ask for a better amp really, and I can't believe I actually was looking at Bryston / McIntosh before, considering you'd end up spending a similar amount of money for separates / interconnects / power cables.  Just watched "Knives Out" last night and saw a McIntosh CD player featured in a scene, and thought "thank god I went with the Diablo".  No offense to McIntosh or Bryston fans; it's all subjective to personal taste. 

I can't say too much about the DAC module as I don't have extensive experience testing DAC's.  All I know is I am blown away comparing it with my standalone Arcam irDAC that I was using before (which to be fair is a very highly regarded DAC but way, way less expensive than the Gryphon module).  I'm really happy with the DAC but I wouldn't trust my advice here given my limited DAC testing experience.  It is super cliche but the Gryphon module sounds far more "analog" than my Arcam irDAC which sounded thinner and not as fully fleshed out in comparison.  And, you get to take advantage of the magic blue flashing light that indicates the DAC module's super-cap is charging (for a minute or a bit longer after amp startup), which supposedly improves sound by ensuring the DAC is not relying on the digital source for USB power.  That said, if I listen to music for the minute or so when the blue light is flashing, meaning that the super-cap is still charging and therefore USB is still powered by the source, I hear no improvement at all after I hear the faint click of a relay and the blue light stops flashing.  Maybe because my Innuos digital source already has a high-quality power supply for the USB?  Who knows.  Not sure if the improvement is supposed to be due to the quality of USB power, or the fact that power comes from one circuit with better grounding, or something like that...  If anyone knows what Gryphon's theory is around the benefit of the super-cap is (beyond the high-level marketing explanation), I'd be interested to know what my flashing blue light is actually doing for me!

Good luck Kevin! 

Yes I found the McIntosh separates really un-engaging in comparison with the Diablo.  I went into the at-home testing with quite a lot of respect and expectations of the McIntosh brand.  But after the test I can't view McIntosh in the same light.  Not really fair to McIntosh as I think my feeling is that there is nothing materially wrong with the brand, but rather the Diablo 300 is just punching way above its weight, in an integrated package which further decreases cost and increases value.  I'm sure it can't touch far more expensive Gryphon separates, but I think the Diablo strives to be comparable at that level.
Having said this I don't have experience with the McIntosh mono blocks so I can't really comment, other than you would need to factor in the cost of all the upgraded interconnects and power cables, which are an absolute must (and will cost thousands for decent cables). For all non-believers do a blind test, and then comment.  My non-audiophile wife can easily hear the differences in blind tests, even if she has a funny way of verbalizing what she hears. Also I just found the build quality of the McIntosh preamps to be a bit light and chintzy.  It is light, it doesn't feel solid, and the screws on the chassis are not even flush mounted.  Based on my experience with McIntosh brand, my totally subjective biased instinct would be to move away from McIntosh and not consider the mono's, but really that is not fair advice considering my lack of experience with the mono's.  I'm biased based on my test and also because I'm totally satisfied with the Diablo.

You'll probably hate hearing this, but just like so many have said, I suggest taking a flight to Vancouver (quickly before Coronavirus takes over the country lol) and listening. The Gryphon dealer would be happy to arrange a head-to-head test between the Diablo 300 and the McIntosh mono blocks - give them advance warning and provide a Tidal playlist ahead of time, and they'll have it set up for you when you arrive.  Fortunately I did not have to fly, but I was totally prepared to if needed (after saving additional funds).  You can't possibly make the best decision for you without going to listen, so you can't look at the travel cost, which I know are high, as wasted money.  And even then it's still not perfect as it's different speakers and different rooms, which messed with me a bit.  There was definitely a bit of a leap of faith at the end, but you want to narrow that leap as much as possible.  Don't know if you'll take me up on this, but if you do go, make sure to go multiple times on the trip with a break in between, even if on the same day.  Traveling is hectic and psychologically there is pressure on extracting everything you can from your senses in a brief listening session, and that does not provide a very good quieting / leveling of your auditory perception with all of those factors going on.  The first time I went I traveled a short distance, and arrived after meeting with family, in between events, and realized I was dehydrated.  I left with completely wrong conclusions and at first decided I wasn't going to proceed.  I went back another time, totally relaxed (and hydrated), and things came together and I had a much better assessment of what I was perceiving.  I had to trust that the slight niggles I still had with the sound were more related to the speakers at the dealer, and once I got the Diablo home I was thankful that my gut was right.  Sounded perfect to me even before burn-in.

Almost every retail item at this price point is negotiable, so yes I did negotiate.  But you should follow your own path on the price points to negotiate; wouldn't be fair of me to disclose what the dealer let it go for.  Just know that they have some margin baked into the retail cost and that is flexible to a point.  Don't get greedy and just offer a fair offer that's a bit lower than asking.  They will counter your offer of course, so expect that and it's up to you if you want to stick to your guns.
The Diablo 300 exceeds all of my expectations and I don't see how I'd possibly ever need to reevaluate.  At some point when financially viable I need to find the equivalent for speakers - but that's a ways off.  Currently my system sounds incredible, but I do recognize that performance is now limited by what my 803 d2's can do.  Great speakers for me, but they are about a third of the value of the Diablo 300 so there are some inherent constraints in the detail the Diablo can push through them, etc.  The Diablo signature sound is definitely present even when testing different speakers at the dealer - it sort of takes over, in a very good way.

Great plan regarding tying in with a New York trip.  I also had almost considered visiting the New York Gryphon/McIntosh store when I was auditioning.
A lot of sales-y comments from the Vancouver shop regarding the Diablo, but that said I tend to agree with them.
From what I've seen in forums, reviews, and talking with many experienced people on this board, the Diablo's "tone" is highly regarded, but keep in mind there are a very, very small number of people who don't the Gryphon house sound.  So you do need to hear it yourself.  Still I'd be surprised if you don't love it.  I typically don't prefer warmer sounding equipment, because in my experience it's been less detailed, bloated, slow, and veiled.  The Gryphon's tone manages to be warm, yet at the same time with very responsive, rich high-resolution detail at all frequencies, including right down to the lowest bass frequencies.  This makes it very engaging yet very easy to listen to at the same time.

Please post the results of the head to head test with the 601's!  To be honest I find audio gear testing more stressful than fun - because I find I really struggle to make sense of what I am perceiving over a short amount of time.  For me at least, it takes a ton of focus and concentration to get to a point where I have some reliable conclusions on the sound I am hearing, to the extent where I am confident I won't have a different opinion after days of use.  I can get there, but it takes work.  If I take it lightly, I find my first impression is totally thrown out the window after extended use.  Thankfully that's all over and I am just listening to music when I use my system now, and not endlessly trying to pick apart what I am hearing!
Good luck!

Yes, the "house sound" is as you stated George, and I appreciate all the elements you noted with the Gryphon sound.  For those very, very finite few who dislike this sound, based on what these people have said I suspect it may be the "controlled" element you noted, or possibly the very slightly "dark" tone in comparison to an amp that may be more raw sounding.  Having said that I find the Diablo 300 to magically contradict itself with these tonal elements.  What I mean by that is that while the sound is noticeably "controlled" at the very same time it is also very dynamic and engaging, likely due to having a very quick slew rate.  "Sudden" sounds jump out and are very alive sounding compared with other amps I tested, but at the same time there is that controlled element that is often cited with Gryphon's sound.  I'd also agree the tone might be slightly "dark" as some have noted, but at the same time, there are loads of dense detail, even when my system is probably limited in this area by my B&W 803 D2 speakers. 

After a year of owning the Diablo 300 I'm every bit as happy with it now and just blown away by the sound quality versus what my experience has been with other amps.  After living with it during this time, I'm still finding nothing at all I can find fault with whatsoever, and in fact I'm still regularly taken aback by how good the sound quality is.  The two areas that have probably made the biggest impact for me in day-to-day use that really go a long way in preserving all positive aspects of the experience are 1) The fact that all positive elements of the sound remain perfectly intact at very low listening volumes - I've not experienced this attribute to this extent with any other amplifiers before, and 2) The fact that all positive elements of the sound remain MOSTLY intact with any material you can throw at it, including poorer quality recordings.  I think the Diablo's slightly "dark" tone can help with this (while amazingly retaining high-frequency detail), where I find other more "raw" amps just totally ruin the experience to the extent recordings can easily become unlistenable. 

Regarding McIntosh and Bryston - the amps I tested from these brands (MC452 and 4B3), at this point I won't try to peg these in a class of high-endedness, but rather, just comment on my experience with them.  To be blunt, I felt McIntosh was fine by boring and unengaging.  I also just wasn't a fan of the physical build when inspected up-close (looks great from a distance).  This was surprising for me as I had anticipated really enjoying the McIntosh sound.  I found Bryston's 4B3 amp to be much more engaging, with great bass and power.  However, while the 4B3 is supposedly far less harsh than prior generation of Bryston's, I nevertheless found it a bit tiring to listen to for extended periods, and also far more intolerant of poorer recordings.  Nevertheless, I consider the 4B3 a better buy than the MC452 as it's more engaging.
Despite my negative comments on McIntosh and Bryston, two things to note are that these are my subjective experiences I'm sharing, and also, I'm comparing it with Gryphon which generally targets a MUCH higher range (in terms of price) market.  The Diablo is really a "value" offering from Gryphon when comparing the astronomical price points of their separate components. 

Thanks for the input!  I will have a Mac tube pre-amp on hand for my demo as well as a Bryston Pre-amp, so those will be good to mix and match.

To be honest I’m not sure where I fit on the spectrum of engaging/detailed vs warm and non-fatiguing.  Although to me being able to listen to music hours on end might mean that the music isn’t quite as engaging.  If it’s a little more fatiguing I don’t mind if the music is more engaging....

For this reason the Gryphon may be the perfect balance between the 4B3 and Mac  for me.  However I’ve now seen a couple  posters have mentioned that the Gryphon can be a tad “dark” sounding.   While warmth is okay, to me dark is not a positive quality as it means a consistently lesser tonal response as the frequency goes from low to high.

Thanks for sharing your experience, and you comparison of the Bryston vs Pass.  

Will be be very interesting to see how the Gryphon Diablo 300 compares....

Thanks inna I thought the story a bit odd too.  They said that amps have a standard behaviour when clipping and when they were driving the Diablo to the max for testing purposes in the shop the Diablo suddenly “fell off a cliff” unlike typical amps when they clip.  So they sent back for analysis and supposedly it is fine and working as intended.

Any Diablo 300 owners out there want to try independently reproducing this experiment?  Probably not, I’m guessing...

I was also leaning towards the brand new route.

DDafoe inna and cytocycle, thank you as well, that was very descriptive and helpful!

My dealer offered me a 6 month old demo Gryphon including both DAC and phono modules, for $19K (converted from my Canadian price to USD). The unit is currently back at Gryphon for analysis as they thought the unit had a fault. Apparently in the shop they were limit testing (sounds fun...) and they found the Gryphon clips very suddenly and dramatically compared with most amps when maxed out. After the shop thought something was wrong, Gryphon say they have tested the unit and found nothing wrong with it.

So for $19K USD I could purchase this demo unit with modules, or for $17K I could have a brand new unit without modules. Seems the new unit price is $1K higher than list price in the US for me.

Thoughts? I will not proceed without auditioning this and other options, but the Diablo is firmly at the top of my list.

So I’ve started step one of the process:  purchasing the Bryston 4B3 and breaking it in (at about 80 hours in now).  I have a 30-day return window which is very helpful.

Next weekend I will be borrowing a McIntosh C2600 and MC452 (they don’t have a demo 462 yet) to compare against the Bryston.

Have to say that so far I’m impressed with the Bryston 4B3, even though it’s not fully broken in.  It just does all of the basics very well, including having good dynamics, neutrality, and pace and timing.  Bass is also not lacking at all.  It’s amazing how much the transparency and soundstage have developed in 80 hours.

I see how others have said elsewhere, that this could be a fatiguing amp over extended listening periods.  It is not harsh at all, but there is definitely a forward presentation. But not bright.  More just in your face on the surface presentation, as others have put it.  But that no-fuss approach works for me.  I don’t mind it being possibly fatiguing since it is also very engaging musically.

I imagine the other candidates, especially The Gryphon Diablo 300, will beat the Bryston and Mac when I get to them, in more advanced areas such as 3D soundstaging.  But I have to say I’m getting attached to the Bryston 4B3 already!  And I can’t discount the highly supportive company and 20 year warranty.  Especially considering what it would cost to ship the Gryphon to Denmark for an out of warranty repair after Gryphon’s 3 year warranty period.....

Will provide updates after comparing the MC452 this weekend.  Until then my family is suffering the constant audio from breaking in the Bryston (at a lower volume, playing TV audio).

I will actually have the opportunity to test the 462, but not in my home.

In a few weeks, after my in-home audition of the Bryston 4B3 vs Mac c2600/452, I’ll be testing the 462 in a shop and comparing with the Gryphon Diablo 300 connected to B&W 803 D3’s (again I have the D2 which is not the same but that’s the closest I can get with my audition of the Gryphon vs c2600/462).

After that test, I hope to be able to make a decisive choice.

 

Hi Morg111, just to be clear unfortunately it is the mc452 I will be testing at home as my dealer doesn’t have the 462 as a demo yet.  My assumption is that the 462 may be slightly better than the 452 but not leaps and bounds, and if I did buy Mac I would of course go with the c2600/462.  Also as an aside, while I have 25 years experience testing swaths of “mid-fi” grade equipment (say < $10K for full system) and have been very careful with what equipment I choose, this is really the first time I’ve been testing equipment at a much higher level.  Just a disclaimer on my findings!  I do agree with the comments in the pro review of the Bryston cubed line you referenced, and actually had seen it before.  To me the Bryston seems like a no-brainer at its price-point.  We’ll see how it stacks up against the higher grade (or priced) gear.

Jafant I don’t really have higher level components currently but will be upgrading with the amp.  Here is what I currently have:
-Arcam A85 integrated amp, and matching P85 power amp (currently bi-amped)
-Arcam iRDAC 
-Van Den Hul D-352 speaker wire
-Audio Note Interconnects (can’t remember model offhand but they cost around $400)
-Mac Mini running Audirvana driving the DAC over USB.
-Exact Audio Copy is used to produce FLAC files stored on the Mac Mini.

So nothing fancy currently, but the Arcam A85 was a classic that punched way above its weight and had a ton of attention at the time.  But a far cry from the Diablo 300... The dealer that will be loaning me the Mac gear in the past has been VERY generous with borrowing much higher grade cables and interconnects, so I expect I will have options to test the Bryston and Mac gear with.

Thanks inna.  Not a surprise if my B&W 803 D2’s hold back the Diablo from reaching full potential.  Sets the stage for future upgrades right??

Interestingly there was a pro review where the reveiwer on a whim tried connecting the Diablo to a low end pair of speakers just to see what would happen.  The reviewer was amazed with the results and said the speakers sounded amazing.  I’m sure the speakers were still limiting the amp however, but that was probably the beat those speakers could ever sound...

Here are my initial results of my head-to-head in-home test of the McIntosh MC452 vs Bryston 4B3, tested with McIntosh C2500 and Bryston BP26/MPS2 preamps:
Results:
-If I had to pick between the McIntosh and Bryston power amps, it would be the Bryston 4B3, by a small margin.
-The McIntosh 452 unsurprisingly did a better job at midrange, but unexpectedly (for me) had a more dominant mid than the Bryston 4B3.  The McIntosh's midrange was fully rounded out in the lower mids, with the Bryston's mids, including vocals, being "leaner".
-The Bryston 4B3 did a much better job at bass response, dynamics, pace and timing.  This resulted in a more musically engaging experience (for me at least).  There was a punch, attack, and engagement level that was missing from the MC452, and not just in the lower frequencies.  Even though the 4B3's vocals were not as fully developed as with the McIntosh, the 4B3's vocals seemed to pop out more and have more "air" around them.  Underneath that was a solid foundation of drums and bass which carried and exceptional rhythm and drive.  The 4B3's the overall presentation of the 4B3 seemed more cohesive as a result, and, unexpectedly, was more "musical".  For me at least.
-Soundstage was pretty much a draw.  But, I will say that the MC452's soundstage was more noticeable simply because there was more meat to the lower mids that simply was not there with the 4B3.
-Between the two preamps it was no contest - the C2500 beat the BP26 easily.  The BP26 was harsh and difficult to listen to.  Sibilant 'Sh" vocals were rough.  Could be just the difference between a tube preamp and solid state?
In summary, I do miss the MC452's fully developed mids in the Bryston 4B3, but ultimately the 4B3's pace, rhythm, drive, dynamics, and bass made for a more musically engaging experience. Not to mention the Bryston is half the cost, and of course comes with the 20 year warranty.  Another aside is that I really like the Bryston's speaker terminals which made for a rock solid locked-in connection, whereas I did not like the McIntosh's spring-loaded mushy feeling connectors which didn't feel as secure.  Another aside is that thinner or poor recordings sounded better with the MC452, since the mid was more fully-fleshed which provided a bit of balance to such recordings.  Overall, the result was not what I expected - I thought I'd like the McIntosh's sound more than I did.  Ideally, if I could combine the strengths of both amplifiers into one, that would be my perfect amp.  The dynamics, pace, attack, rhythm, drive, and bass of the 4B3 with the effortless fully developed mids of the MC452, in one single amp - that's what I need to find now that I've analyzed these two...  Based on everything I've read, I'm hoping I'll find what I'm looking for in the Gryphon Diablo 300 - which I will be testing (in a store) vs McIntosh C2600/MC462 next weekend.  The MC452 is definitely a great amplifier, but for anyone looking at the 4B3, to me it just seems an exceptional value with awesome build quality, with sound that at least for me, beats the MC452 sound by a small margin.  That said, I can absolutely see how someone else might prefer the MC452's sound for the effortless and more developed midrange.

Thanks inna for the tips.  The Diablo is a demo unit the shop is getting from Gryphon, so presumably it should have some miles on it.  Good point on avoiding power conditioning - I’ve seen stories of conditioning causing issues for the current-hungry Diablo at shows.  While I was aware of this I am pretty sure the shop has conditioning built into the walls of their listening room.  So I’ll have to ask how we can avoid this during my audition.  

And yes, from what others say, it seems I would need to spend a lot more than the cost of a Diablo 300 to get equivalent or better performance from separates.  That said, there is the issue of subjective taste.  An example is with a lot of high end cables I find to be very impressive, but often there is one small thing that ruins it for me in terms of balance, being too warm/cold etc.  I expect to recognize all the qualities of the Diablo that others mentioned after I test it on the weekend.  But it doesn’t there won’t be that one thing that makes it not work for me.  We’ll see.  If the Diablo doesn’t work out, to be honest I’ll be happy with the 4B3 and will need to move my search to a suitable preamp that’s a bit more lively and has more drive and excitement vs the McIntosh C2500 that I tested the 4B3 with.  The C2500 wasn’t bad at all, but I’m sure I could find a more involving preamp to go with the 4B3.  Maybe Simaudio 740p Or AR Ref 6.  Or even the Bryston BP-173, but it would need to be far superior to the terribly thin sounding BP-26.  I couldn’t believe how the BP-26 came from the same company that made the excellent 4B3 to be honest.

Morg111,

I should be auditioning the 462 on Tuesday if all goes as planned.  However I’m only able to test in-store and not in my home so it won’t be a fair comparison to the 452.  To make matters worse I will be hearing the 462 with B&W 803 D3’s, which are I believe a fair bit better (and more expensive) than my D2’s.

The main reason I’m testing the 462 is as a reference point for what I’m now most interested in testing, which I will also test on Tuesday- the Gryphon Diablo 300.

I have notes on what I found to be lacking with the 452, and if the Diablo can beat the 462 in these areas and do nothing else wrong, I think I will have found a winner.  If not, then I’ll have to start searching for a suitable preamp for the Bryston.

I don’t mean to steer you away from McIntosh too much as I can see how some would prefer its smooth and complete midrange, but another thing I was a bit disappointed by was build quality.  Not that it was bad. But up close, it just didn’t come close to the rock solid feel the other brands in the same price range had, despite the heavy weight.  Mcintosh preamps I thought on particular did not give an impression of sturdiness at all.  This was a surprise; I didn’t expect to have that reaction.

Nevertheless I will post an update on the 462, but all I will have to directly compare it against is the Gryphon, which probably won’t be a fair fight.

Morg111,  totally thinking the same as you.  If I do go Bryston I too will actually go 14B3 for greater transparency vs 4B3.  However when you factor cost of 14B3 and suitable preamp, I can get the Gryphon Diablo 300 for the same $$$.  And consensus seems to be that the Diablo is “in another league”.  Will see how I think  the Gryphon compares shortly.  Also agree I expect 462 will only be marginally better than 452.

LOL...  Yeah like you said in your quote of mine I’m still working on figuring that out..

My dealer said that the delivery of their Diablo demo unit to their shop has been delayed due to the unusual amount of snow we are dealing with on the west coast.  The shipping company currently shows it should be delivered this afternoon, but I’m sceptical of that and there probably won’t be enough time for an audition even if it did arrive today.  Since I’m travelling, my last chance to audition on this trip will be tomorrow afternoon, but I’m not sure they will even have got it in by then.  It’s a tiny amount of snow but we are not used to dealing with it on the west coast so all the roads are backed up.  It’s looking like I may need to come back for the audition after the snow is cleared, maybe this weekend.

I’ll listen to The Chain again (haven’t heard it for a while) and consider adding it to my audition playlist. Dealer said he prefers to use Tidal HiFi for auditioning.  So far my audition playlist contains songs that have very specific passages that have exposed other amplifiers as not quite doing well enough in particular areas, especially when A/B testing those same passages with a second amplifier.

Tested the Gryphon Diablo 300 today. It really is very confusing testing in-store instead of in-home. At this point I THINK I am proceeding with the Diablo. The shop had them connected to the B&W 802 D3’s (for reference I have the 803 D2’s so a much different speaker. Used Transparent Reference speaker wire. My first reaction was one of completely losing my bearings, due to the soundstaging. It was actually so distracting that I had trouble focusing on my usual areas of analysis. I am not a very good audiophile.... The vocals were so completely formed at pinpoint dead center it was spooky. It took some getting used to. When I shifted or turned my head it really messed with the soundstage which was even more distracting. Then I discovered if I leaned forward I found the soundstage was much less fragile when shifting or turning my head. I concluded the speakers were towed in too much. The experience for me was similar to using a very good pair of headphones. I now understand what others say about the Diablo being “muscular” and “controlled”. I’m not sure I enjoy this effect, vs a more relaxed and “free-flowing” effect. But I do think I’d get used to it. Transparency and detail was very good. Overall this is miles ahead of everything I’ve tried up to now. On the other hand I did have a bit of trouble engaging with the music - it was very controlled, a bit “uptight” vs relaxed and flowing. HOWEVER- I am 90% sure that the elements I found slightly unenjoyable could be attributed to the speakers. When I bought my 803 D2’s I compared them against the 804D3’s and concluded the D3’s midrange, while more detailed, was too forward and aggressive for me. So I am thinking this effect is likely present in the 802 D3 as well. Now I need to decide whether to take a chance and proceed with the Diablo 300. As I said, I was very impressed. Just think it was the B&W 802 D3’s that weren’t really my thing. I do need to travel to visit this shop so maybe I need to head there for one more session and maybe I’ll try a different set of speakers this time. Or maybe I’ll just take the plunge.... Need to think on this. Lastly I didn’t bother testing the McIntosh 462. I know the Diablo was not even comparable to the 452 so I knew the 462 wouldn’t have a hope. I just focused on the Diablo. As you can probably tell I left the audition impressed with the Diablo but also a bit confused.  Oh one more thing. I’m certain that Fleming subcontracted Batman to design the Diablo chassis. And the remote. Which doubles as a weapon.

Bubb, unfortunately the shop didn't have the 803 D3's for me to test with the Diablo, as they said they sell so many 804's and 802's they don't need to demo the 803.  I should be clear I'm not even slightly saying the 802 or D3 line is bad - it just has a less relaxed mid than I prefer.  I agree it is an excellent speaker and I believe others may specifically like it better for how revealing it is.  I've extensively A/B tested my 803 D2's with the 804 D3 and I've heard the 804 D3 in other systems as well with the same qualities detected in the midrange which are simply not to my liking.  Regarding the typical analysis of dynamics, timing, attack, decay, etc, as I said I was unable to get a good read on these during my test of the Diablo.  Sorry to fail in my typical reviewing abilities!  Another way to put it is that the sound was so unique in my experience, that I admit I lost my sonic bearings a bit and I spent most of my time trying to get them back!  Again this was due to the soundstaging (it was like, how can I test this amp when there is a singer right in front of me distracting me from the test!) and the "control" aspect which I found very different.  With the vocals it is like a disembodied voice is planted right in front of you.  I've seen others say this about how pinpoint the Diablo is with vocals.  By "control" and "muscular" I mean that you get the sense that the speakers are doing EXACTLY what the amplifier is telling them to do, and not leaving any leeway for the speakers to do anything else.  It is hard to described in terms of typical descriptors of dynamics, attack, decay etc.  It is more a sense of being completely "dialed-in" and "focused". That's what gave me the feeling of using high-end headphones while I was listening.  The only difference being the soundstage was in front of me instead of left/right and in my head as it is with headphones.  That is what I am working through, whether I'll grow to enjoy this as a sonic benefit.  I think I will - it is a really cool effect and I think it is just my ears are biased to what I'm used to which is most definitely not this!  Sorry, I didn't get a chance to listen to The Chain, as I was working through my own sense of experiencing sonic discombobulation.  Realized when I left the audition I was quite dehydrated too so that didn't help.  I am thinking of going back next week which is my nearest opportunity.  Also of note - the room was medium sized, I was maybe 8-9 ft from the speakers, and it was set up to be an equilateral triangle between both speakers and me.  The room had a lot of dampening - which could have added to the "control" factor.  I typically like a bit more energy to come from the room to liven it up (but not much).  I did request they bypass the power conditioner they had and plug the Gryphon directly into the unconditioned wall outlet, so there shouldn't be any issue there.  In terms of burn-in, it was a "distributor demo" that had just arrived at the shop.  They said they expected it had some heavy use on it but they said there'd be no way for them to know for sure.  The did offer the demo unit to me (with DAC and phono modules) at a very aggressive price so I'm thinking it can't possibly be new if they can do that.

That is a perfect way to describe it “you feel the amp’s presence”.  It is difficult to describe this effect in a non-subjective way.  It is like the amp is curating the music for you, the way it wants to  (and doing a very, very good job of it).  What I’m wrestling with is whether I like this effect vs an amp that “disappears”.  No one I’ve seen has commented on this control element being a negative factor, so maybe I would be able to stop focusing on it so much after some extended listening sessions.  I doubt that can happen over an in-store audition.  On one hand I really like the effect.  On the other, I seem to notice it a bit too much and it’s distracting.  Now that I think of it - I did see one person on another forum say it was too controlled and not free-flowing enough for them.  But that’s the only one.

Sorry Morg, the shop had set up the 462 for me but the Gryphon was so unique there was no point in comparing with the 462, at least for me, and I had too much to focus on with the Diablo.

As I said if my choice was between Bryston and Mac I’d go Bryston without question.  And that’s based on my test of the 4B3 and 452.  You give up a bit of the Mac’s fully fleshed our mids but you gain so much more in dynamics, timing, drive and bass.  Best of luck with the 14B3!

If I end up buying the Diablo and if it doesn’t work out for some reason, my fallback will be to sell it and go with the 14B3 and a suitable TBD preamp.  There is no way for me to be totally sure of how the the Diablo will do with my 803 D2’s before buying, and as I said the D3 line I’m testing it with in the shop has elements that don’t agree with me, which is actually the very reason I chose my D2’s and not the D3 at the time I bought them.

I already offered to leave a deposit to bring the Gryphon home for a demo and dealer said they don’t do in-home demos, full stop. And I’d need to lug 180 pounds of speakers to the shop (which is not local to me), risking damage especially with exposed tweeters. I will go back for a second audition, and probably proceed with the Diablo even if everything isn’t 100% perfect to my ears with the speakers they have on hand (I will test using Sonus Faber speakers next, instead of the 802’s. If I end up having to sell (hopefully not), I know I could be happy with a less advanced but still very all-round capable and highly enjoyable Bryston 14B3 based system. At least, that is my thinking at this point.  

Okay, I've completed a second audition of the Gryphon Diablo 300.  As I was prepared for the type of sound to expect, from the first audition, the results were far clearer for me this time.  I'll be proceeding with purchasing the Diablo 300.
I started testing driving the 802 D3's again, just as a baseline from where I left off last time.  In the end I didn't feel the need to switch out the speakers.  The huge dynamics, timing and drive, impressive 3D soundstaging, very solid and well developed midrange, and excellent bass that most all reviewers / posters have commented on were all there, and were all very impressive.  I believe that a good portion of the midrange quality is derived from the internal DAC module, with mids being well "grounded" as one pro review put it.  I noticed that this quality was not there when using an external (albeit much lower-end) DAC. 

Everything was very, very impressive.  At the end I even threw some poorer quality recordings at the Diablo to see how badly things would go, and it totally surprised me by making them sound great - even highlighting vocal details I'd never caught before on these crap mixes.  I thought the incredible amount of detail would surely make the Diablo tear these songs apart, but instead the songs really did take on the feel of a live performance.  These same recordings have bordered on un-listenable on my current rig at home.  It's paradoxical that a system that is so transparent and revealing in detail can still make poorer recordings/mixes sound musical and enjoyable - this is not typically the case.
I think my first audition went off the rails a bit for a few reasons:  1) Up to that point I'd been used to auditioning gear in my home.  While it is obviously better to test in your own space with your own gear, the mental shift to testing in a shop was also jarring, and 2) the first audition I used my own speaker cables for part of the test, and I noticed after I got home that one of the spade terminals had become slightly unscrewed, which would have slightly unseated the compression contact on one of the terminals, and 3) just the sheer capabilities of the Gryphon was not something I was expecting.  During the first audition, it felt a bit like seeing a 3D movie - stunning, but not an experience you necessarily want all the time.  However, this time around, I was just impressed and enjoyed the music.
While I'm planning on proceeding, the only slight concern I have is with regard to service, should I ever need it.  Shipping the unit back to Denmark for repair will not be cheap, however my guess is that this may only happen once in its (or my) lifetime.  Chalk it up to cost of ownership.  The other concern is that there are only three dealers in North America.  If Gryphon decides (again) they want or need to pull out of N.A. sales, there won't be any way to get service.  Gryphon states they do not provide any direct service or communication to customers; they direct customers to their dealers.  Finally, Fleming Rasmussen has now retired, and as Gryphon is a very small company (say compared to McIntosh or Bryston), I'd hope that they have a strong future even without their former leader who was heavily invested in all aspects of design, and I expect in other areas of the company operations as well. At the end of the day these concerns won't stop me from proceeding, but they are certainly considerations.  Their headquarters looks cool but it is tiny - you can see it from a distance on Google St View!  I guess these things just go along with a bespoke brand like Gryphon.

I agee Inna, that’s why I say it’s something that is a consideration but not something that will stop my from purchasing.  Shipping to Denmark is expensive but doable, especially with Gryphon’s wooden crate for the unit.  I think this is just part of what you get when you leave the more “mainstream” companies like McIntosh and Bryston and move up a level to a bespoke company like Gryphon.  I don’t think their refusal to deal with customer directly is arrogance, rather I think it is likely necessity due to their size.  Just like their tentative re-entry into N.A. distribution - it’s likely they are not set up to scale for larger volume sales and subsequent support.  Gryphon have never appeared to be interested in really pushing geographic expansion or targeting wider market segments, but again this may be simply because they never focused on positioning company to scale while still maintaining their no-compromise approach to design and (sub-contract) manufacturing.  I think if the N.A. distribution were to stop they would very likely provide direct service.  To me the biggest concern is what their future will be like without Flemming, this is what is different about Gryphon vs most other bespoke companies.  I saw an interview with their current CEO and it didn’t exactly inspire conference, especially what he said about some of the reasons that influenced Fleming’s retirement.   Regardless, I am now fairly confident that to beat the Gryphon Diablo’s sound quality I’d need to spend double the cash (for say a D’Agostino or Luxman system).  And since I’m not prepared to spend that much, the Diablo just makes sense, and it’s a great value.  I don’t know too much about D’Agostino or Luxman but similar concerns could exist with them.

My dad still has an Accuphase pre-amp/amp and a Nakamici tape deck that he bought in the seventies.  The first brand is still around in its mostly original incarnation, but not the second.  When I was a kid there were multiple local shops that provided repair services, which I recall my dad relying on from time to time.  These shops were authorized by the brands to provide service and surely had training.  All of these service options no longer exist.  Changing times.

Inna, I’ll try to find the interview, it was just on YouTube.  It was nothing really negative, just said that they weren’t planning to do things differently, that it was an honour, and then something I thought was just a bit odd that he bothered to mention about Flemming.  I’ll see if I can find it again.

It's hard to tell from a short interview; we'd just be speculating.  I just found it a bit odd is all.  Also I think it is not realistic that a small boutique shop can stay a small boutique shop forever - thirty years is a long run.  With Fleming retired, I'd guess there is more chance the company will eventually change hands in the future (after which its identity would change, as I'd think it likely Flemming continues to own a large, likely majority share in the company).  I can't see Gryphon growing much in the uber high-end segment, which I'm sure is a small niche market, even globally.  Either way all of this is purely conjecture, and I'm happy to proceed with the Diablo.  Hopefully I'll be able to get service if I ever need it, and hopefully I never will need it!

Inna, here is the video I was referring to:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OXFXvA4c4Fk

After researching, I also saw that Gryphon’s new CEO came from B&O (he worked there as of 2010).  They make some neat stuff but I don’t think their main focus is on sound.  In the video above they say that Gryphon’s approach is to allow their engineers to work with any budget necessary to achieve the highest quality sound, and that they plan on continuing with this high-end market focus.  I’d be curious as to how they plan to grow within this market, or even if corporate growth is a goal for Gryphon.  Some companies simply don’t care about that.

When the time is right, I’d guess my budget for a turntable would be up to $12K.  But that could all change once I start exploring that avenue further and I become better acquainted with the options....

But after this purchase I doubt that will be happening for 1-3 years!  

I also need to consider whether I’m happy continuing using my Mac Mini with Audirvana as my digital music streamer or whether I’d like to get a dedicated streamer at some point.  I’m not sure how much difference something like an Aurender or even one of Simaudio’s streamers will make vs my Mac Mini.  I’ve got a decent AudioQuest Diamond USB cable and also a JitterBug anti-jitter device (which I have not tried yet).  I have trouble spending a lot on a dedicated streamer considering how quickly technology will render it obsolete, despite firmware upgrades etc.  I worry about that for DAC’s as well, as even that technology is changing in terms of supported formats.  Gryphon’s documentation for the Diablo DAC module expects users will be connecting to a computer, so I’m hoping that’s a sign that my Mac Mini should be sufficient.  If Gryphon assumes use of a computer as a streamer for their DAC, that must be a sign it’s acceptable!  

I am a sucker for being upsold, careful :)  Yes I could consider the phono module as well, but my goal is to, at some point in the future, to get a great turntable and as such I am thinking I'd be better served with an external phono module, possibly tube based.  I really don't know much about turntables or phono stages, but from what others have said, it seems external would be ideal.  Thoughts??  Also, should I go with the internal phono module in the future I'd be fine opening up the unit and installing myself.  In fact I'd enjoy that.  I asked and they said if you are comfortable working with electronics (I am), it is not an issue to install the modules myself.

From my experience in terms of what I have access to test in my area (which is admittedly limited), Diablo 300 beats all separates at a similar price point. This includes McIntosh C2600/MC452, Bryston 4B3 with various preamps, and the Simaudio 600 integrated. I’ve tested other combinations in-store that were on my long-list before the shortlist gear mentioned above which I tested in-home. I also tried using the Simaudio 600i as a preamp to get a sense of what the 740p preamp might sound like. None of these configurations came even close to the Gryphon integrated in any particular area. Except, maybe, the Simaudio in terms of soundstage and detail, but performance was similar only in that one area. To me the Simaudio sounded dry, a bit analytical, had no drive and not a lot of bass, and didn’t engage me in a musical sense at all. Higher power Simaudio amplifiers would be better, but the overall sonic presentation didn’t appeal to me and sounded lifeless. When I tested all of this gear, I wanted to like them, and even with the Gryphon I wasn’t sure on my first audition. Now that I’ve gone through this process, I’m confident that overall the Gryphon is not even comparable to other options at its price or lower; it was so much more capable and makes it very obvious it is in a different class of gear.
Also, the consensus from many others say you would need to spend double the cost of the Diablo 300 to beat its performance. This includes Whitecamaross (OP of the "Long list of amplifier and my review of each" multi-year thread) who feels I’d need to go to the Luxman pre/pwr 900u system to beat the Diablo, and these are WAY more expensive. That dude has a ton of hands-on experience beyond what any reasonable hobbyist should have and he is worth listening to.
So yes, I am intentionally not giving weight to my concerns around service. And I don’t know that Gryphon has N.A. authorized repair, as I asked my dealer this and I got a bit of a fuzzy answer ("Gryphon engineers can walk technicians through diagnostics over the phone, and its possible that if only one module or board needs switching out that it can be done remotely"). To me it sounds like any real service will require shipping to Gryphon headquarters.  In fact, even my dealer thought they had an issue with their previous demo unit (turned out the unit was fine) and they had to ship it back to Denmark.  In short, I’m resigned to paying a lot in shipping should I require out of warranty service, and hoping that Gryphon continues as a business even without their original founder, which I think is more likely than not. Also, my dealer offered me a similar deal to the one Jetter referenced on Audiogon, on their demo Diablo which I tested. I considered this as they would include the DAC and phono modules which is a huge value, but in the end I don’t think I can get over two cosmetic scratches on their demo unit, even though they are minor. Also they have no history of the unit, it was simply provided as a "distributor demo". So I think I will be going with a new Diablo with the DAC module, instead of the demo option. The internal DAC module on its own performs so well, that this in itself warrants getting excited about!

All very good points.  I'll have to think on it!  I've had that exact issue happen to me in the past, where I had my upgrade path planned at the time of initial purchase and then when the time came I went to the shop and the key components were discontinued....  In that case it worked out as ebay saved the day and I bought used...

One other thing to add about my second audition of the Gryphon.  I actually enjoyed the 802 D3 speakers much more once I put my finger on what was initially making me a bit uncertain about them.  Yes the midrange is more aggressive than the D2, but it is also more revealing and presents very lifelike vocals as a result.  I found the Stereophile review of the 802 D3's and I think they hit the nail on the head for me - they said the speakers were great but noted that some may find the speakers too "light" due to the fact that the bass, while very deep and present, has no added "resonance" and no bloat and therefore can make the overall tonal presentation seem a bit light.  Once I realized this I appreciated the speakers more.  The bass is very deep and very present; it is just so well defined without bloat or "resonance" as Stereophile put it, that it makes the midrange appear to stand out more when listening to music that is lighter in lower level frequencies. 

Xsparky you are probably right about overthinking the service risk.  One thing though is I think it is likely that only one or two areas of the Diablo are mil-spec.  I can’t imagine all components, relays, etc are mil-spec.  Could be just the PCB’s themselves that are, and not the components on the boards.

Out of curiosity, what are you feeding your DAC from?  I’m using a Mac Mini with Audirvana but am considering whether to plan a move to a dedicated streamer.  Which may be more important to do once I have the Diablo in my system.

Ordered the Diablo 300 today (finally), with the DAC module.  Dealer offered me a demo phono board that may or may not have ever been used, at half price, so I accepted.  The rest will be brand new.

I’ve also ordered an InnuOS Zenith Mk III player, as I don’t think my Mac Mini was really up to the job.

Diablo could be ready for pickup in two weeks, but the InnuOS could take up to two months as the new MK III is backordered.

After everything is burned in I’ll be testing power cords.  Others on this board have told me they don’t really notice a difference between cords on the Diablo.  Possibly due to the Diablo’s design vs other amps which are quite different with different cords.  Need to get my hands on a demo Valhalla 2 just to see if it can do anything with the Diablo.  I’ve also been told the cord makes way more difference with the media server/player than it does with the Diablo, as digital equipment tends to “pollute the AC line.”  But I’ll probably go with something like the AQ Hurricane -  we’ll see after testing.  Depends how the Valhalla 2 does.... I’ll need to wait a couple of months for the InnuOS to arrive before that testing.  Until then I’ll have to burn in the Diablo with the Mac Mini running Audirvana.

Hi xsparky the Torus sounds interesting.  Others have said to plug the Diablo direct to the wall as conditioners sometimes can’t provide enough juice for the Diablo’s large current needs.  Including advice higher up in this thread.  I also saw an example at a HiFi show where a conditioner ruined the Diablo’s performance, and they realized this too late.  But I guess the Torus is different and provides higher current than others?  Also, according to a dealer I spoke with, high quality power cords also manage “pollution” caused by the stereo gear itself.  In particular digital components which apparently are extra noisy.