Box speakers that sound like Electrostats?

Go with a company that makes them both: Quad

Iasi:
I really do not have a chance to audition the Innersounds,but I have heard good things about them.I think the biggest complaint I have about Panels is that people that fall in love with them as I did do not have a proper rooms to put them in after moving.I liked my Maggies and they intergrated well with a sub,but then I had to move and I had to get box speakers.The NEARs give me the transparency that the Panels did and more dynamics.

The Accoustats and ML's were really bad in getting the intergration right.

If ever I get a chance to listen to the Inner's I will gladly go take a listen.What I have to deal with at the moment is getting a speaker that has a small footprint and go as close to Fullrange as I can possibly get.The NEAR's are really small and go down to approx. 28Hz..Now I have to sell my sub which crosses over at 40Hz..I will probably opt for a REL sub.

The Modified NEAR M15's go to 32Hz. and are extodinary for what I paid for them,$350, and they are probably the best deal I have ever found.The M50's I am getting are still used by some Manfs. for reference speakers which says alot to give you an idea.I shall have the most advanced set in the world.

One other thing is that most Panels have weird loads which makes choosing amplification difficult.If I remember correctly Innersound uses CODA Amps which are designed to Innersounds specs.NEARs are alittle difficult because they go down to 2ohms on some pieces I think,but they are really easier to match amps to.

I bet you are happy with the Inners and I hope you have a room and amps that are suitable to put them in.I would like to have some CODA's also BTW as they are on my list of being some of the finest amps in the world along with the likes of LAMM,Threshold and Pass.I will probably get some Mark Levs or Aragons to run my NEAR's.

So in closing I will say I hope I did not offend you or any Planar owner's ,but I would really like people that buy them to have adequste rooms and amps for them.I am happy with what I have found and what I know about some Planar's.As I mentioned I will try to find a place that has them.I live in ME. so it's really difficult to get to hear alot of stuff.

Regards,ABEX

Abex, again i have to say to you the same thing that i said to Gonglee3's post...you obviously never heard Innersound electrostats if you say that the electrostats lack integration of the woofer with the pannel...many people think of ML when they hear "electrostats" (and I fully agree, ML's don't do bass very well), but they should give a listen to a pair of Innersound speakers first before generalizing...

I sold my Maggies for sets of Modified NEARs.I was able to do testing before I sold the Maggies and have no refrets In the least.Believe it or not the NEARs were more transparent than the Maggies.I won't be going back to Electrostats or panels ever again.They get some things right,but they lack integration of good way down Bass and I do not like adding a sub.

interesting comments gonglee...i'm a classical music fan and that's exactly the reason i went to electrostats...well, i can tell that you probably never heard Innersound electrostats with classical music...there is no metallic sound and the chamber music or piano/violin solos are absolutely envolving...one thing though...the Innersounds, due to their narrow sweet spot, can not do justice to full scale Mahler, but i can live with that...

Just a note to say I prefer paper cone boxes to Electrostats. I am a classical musician, and I think they sound more realistic. The metallic sound of Electrostats somehow don't capture the full scope of musical expressions.
I like old big 15inch Tannoys, not because it sounds like electrostats, but cuz they don't. Just a note incase someone wanted to get into classical music, I think boxes will lead you there quicker.

I took my Spica TC-50s to my "local" Quad dealer and listened to the Quad 12L, the Spicas and the 988 (all thru Quad electronics, with a sub). To me the 12Ls were very impressive and in some ways better (e.g. smoother) than the Spicas, but the Spicas were closer in personality to the 988.

You should listen to the Von Schweikert VR-1. Their top end is precise and crisp without sounding tinny and the base is full and lively. It also has a great and deep soundstage. To me they sound like the best electrostatics without having to get a sub.

I do like Vandies...and they are very open sounding...however...they do lack the speed of ELSs and even other conventional designs in their price range...but this is highly subjective...it comes down to what music you enjoy and what trade-offs u can live with....if I ever graduate to a bigger room..the Vandies will be on my short list...

Whoa!! Where are all the Vandersteen fans today? The whole idea of the Vandersteen "baffleless" design is to eliminate the "boxy" sound of a box speaker. Whether you like them or not, for whatever reason, the Vandersteens are absolutely transparent. Have a new listener over and the first comment (after Wow) is how transparent the sound is (and where is it coming from).

Give the 2CEs a listen Dennis, or if you have a little more room, the 3As. Sigs of course in either case.

Jaytoy, Apogees have for the most part gone underground, both literally, and figurative. There are still thousands of mint Apogees out there, but they are almost all locked up in people's dedicated listening rooms. There is also a thriving Apogee forum where one finds Apogees, learns to care for them, and what ancillary equipment works with them. The Perigee creater, Graz, produces replacement ribbons for all models, and there is a long time Apogee builder, Robert Dragunas, who has all ribbons, and will rebuild Apogees for a reasonable cost. I have bought three near mint Apogees off of eBay and Audiogon.

Muralman i do agree with the apogee are really good, Iam
glad that your thread just remind me fifteen years ago,
how good they are, the problem is they are hard to find,
i dont even see them anymore, 2 years ago, i saw them
on the audio dealership.

Perigees - if you are an Aussie, or Brit. The Perigee presently has a limited distribution. Apogee - Perigee... There is a connection. The Perigee developer started business as a ribbon replacement manufacturer for his and other's, around the world, beloved Apogees. The Perigee is a steal, if you can find one. Used Apogees are still audio's greatest bargain.

Muralman with due respect to you I do have quest Martin
Logan rewired with siltech,IMHO this speakers they are
so hard to beat, In my room they are slightly big,
but they do unbelievable sound, I did hear the sound lab
I dont know the model but as tall as my quest they are
good but I did not miss them at all. Actually when I read
the Andra 2 by Paul Bolin, My friend brought this andra
in my house as good as my electrostats this andras they
clearer, more like electrostats but emotionally they will
connect to you,It almost took a week befor Sarah Brightman
left my room, The emotion is the difference, the logans
they perform more live.

Interesting you mention Paul Bolin. The last I heard, Mr. Bolin uses the Apogee Duetta Signature as his reference speaker. His word, that a particular dynamic driver speaker can emulate electrostats, is well worth the listen.

I agree with 1652, I bought the andra's because even the
review of Paul Bolin states that this speakers do things
like electrostatic sp,

Joe...you are correct...the Quads are have 2 ports...both in the rear...so they are really intended for "free space" positioning...and dont get me wrong...I do like Spendors...and as you mentioned...on vocals,strings,acoustics,etc..in their limited range...they are impressive...but for me...especially bass dominant material...fusion jazz,dub,reggae,drum n bass,electronic,etc...my requirements were a little different...

I just did a demo of piega p10 with lamm amp.The more powerful one.I cant remember model it was at a dealer.I really wanted to like this speaker but was not impressed except on a chorale CD.This speaker has air.Better than on any speaker i have listened to.It would be wonderful on full scale classical.I listen mostly to Jazz and my Newform Research 645 are more open and way faster.Imaging way better and depth much better.It alo has a punchier mid bass.Bigger more realistic sound stage.Resoulution in spades.I was glad i demoed p10 i was going to buy them because they were more expensive and thought they would be much better.I am not trying to sell you on these speakers because my kharma 2.0s are my favorite but a more slower relaxed sound.I biamp aloia 13.01 amps or bedini 200 classic

Yep, Audio Artistry. Or Siegfried Linkwitz's new designs. These are full range dipoles using dynamic drivers. Try www.linkwitzlab.com.

Have any of you guys who think a Spendor sounds like a Quad, or like any electrostatic, in the midrange, ever heard a Harbeth? The Compact 7 is absolutely dead on flat through midrange fundamentals, crisp, fast and at the same time warm in the bass with no cone material coloration (distortion), not much roll-off on top, and limitless dynamics compared to the Quad. It has no character at all on the right height stands, but can be a little dry on stands that are too high.

Forgot to ask. Are the Quads rear-ported? If yes, they won't work in my room. There are many speakers that are more transparent and faster sounding than the Spendors, but there are few speakers than can reproduce the timbre of acoustic instruments or add a body to voices, when driven by cheap ss equipment like the Spendors. The Quads may do it, but they don't have many US dealers at the moment.

Joe...also...in comparison...the spendors 3/5s sound "small" compared to my Quad 12Ls...but then again...the quad is over 4x the size...and in terms of "speed"...the Quads are not surprisingly "static like"...they really outperformed the small SPendor in every facet...speed,detail,dynamics,bass,etc...imaging and transparency in both speakers was excellent....

Thanks for the info. I like the Spendors, but am only driving them with 20wpc (in a small rm). Bass is good but dynamics are little soft at lower volumes. Highs are "rolled", but again this is only a problem at low listening levels and is a blessing at other times. Will audition the Quads...if I can find a local dealer. Distribution on the Quads seems limited.

Joe...the comparisons are pretty dramatic...since both companies collaborated on the original 10L...which SPendor made for QUad...I was looking at a pair of 3/5s until I heard the Quads...the new Quads are less colored and more revealing that the SPendors...that is, they dont have the famous Spendor "rolled off" highs...but the 2 areas that the QUad excel in are dynamics and bass...which happen to be the SPendors weaknesses...for vocals...they both are about as good as it gets....and in the great Quad tradition...these are transparent as box speakers can be...

How do the Quad 12L's compare to the Spendor S3/5?

The new Quad L series...I have the 12Ls...and their speed,transparency,and detail do rival their ELSs cousins...and with full range dynamic driver bass...

I had ribbons for the longest time and finally went out of it. Apogee Divas the queen of ribbons. Amazing soundstage and the dispersion level is on its own league.
Got out of it after trying to keep it going, the amplifiers monos, tubes for the top and heh! too much.
Finally I found bookshelves that could give the enjoyment as much. Went for the Sonus Faber Electa Amators!
Jeff Rowland amp and wadia source and I got what I want!
Ribbons and electrostatics sound different because of the wide band and dispersion charasteristics but there are other ways of getting good music. Problem is you have to pay for it!

Avalon Acoustics opened my eyes after being a ribbon devote for the longest time, so did the $20,000 price tag!

Having heard the new piega c8 ltd for the last few weeks I would give an even stronger recommendation if you are considering box speakers that rival the good points of electrostatics. They really are worth an audition and won't cost what the imagine cost nor will they will require a separate listening room. Happy to chat if you have any interest

I went from M-L Sequel IIs (10+ yrs) to Merlins VSM-SE and they were dyanamic as hell, but even after changing out dacs, transports, amps (two ss), wires, I couldn't tame 'em. Verity Fidelios filled the bill. Musical, detailed---no, make that MUSICAL and detailed.

Mike, thanks for the link to the translated Monitor db site. Now if I can only scrape together DM60,000 for the Imagine system! (This price must be out of date since it's been a couple years since the DM has been traded). My best guess would be in the $35-40K range in US dollars... This is a little out of my range, but it makes for interesting reading nonetheless (although the 'verb last order' structure doesn't translate very well at times). Maybe Albert or Cornfedboy can give them a try?!?! Wayne

Von Schweikerts. The literature claims they excell any planar/electrostat in terms of transparency, and they do just that, dissapearing in a room like none other I've ever heard, and most models go down to at least 20-25hz. There are not many VSA dealers around but if you have one locally give them a listen, you will be impressed.

My experience with single-driver speakers has led me to the opinion that they can be very close to electrostats for speed, transparency, and imaging. The point-source nature of these single drivers, is about the best for imaging, and the very light cones, with strong magnetic motors, like my Lowthers, can approximate the speed, and miniscule low level detail reproduction. The box is actually the thing that you hear, that makes you realize it is in a box, because the resonances add colorations to the otherwise "stat-like" sound. If the box is very good, this is minimized, but still there. I can't drive electrostats, so I think single-drivers are the next best thing.

As much as I hate to admit it regardless of the hype Muralman1 is correct. No box speaker I've heard can truly escape the box and completely disappear as a well set-up dipole can. The Merlins are in the top tier so far as disappearing goes. On the other hand unless the system is large enough most stats compromise on the macro dynamics of music that bring it to life. I can live with a little boxiness rather than limitations on dynamics, a personal preference but others may demur.

This can be achieved with stats but it takes a large diaphram and room for starters. The other problem is bass performance. If you want great bass and a stat, subwoofers are out for me. Gotta have the large panels pushing the bass. The coherence is lost with a subwoofer. It may not be apparent at first but it will catch up with you sooner or later. Dipoles are about speed and refinement. A dynamic driver thrown into the mix just can't keep up with the speed of those panels. Choose your poison, nothing's perfect.

Dennis - listen to Tubegroover.

I have a superb room that allows the magic of great electrostats to fully manifest. I'm presently setting up the infamous Apogee Scintilla as my final music statement. No box speaker, Merlin or otherwise, can match the breath taking 3D reality of the great Apogees ----- Given the right room!!!!

I trust Tubegroover's assesment of the Merlin. He has been around, and is familiar with the Apogee's magic.

For everybody that cannot read German (but can read English :-) Google has some nice translation tools that will help us out.

Check out:

http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en

In particular, to read the website Tekunda referred to in his message about the Imagine ESL speakers, go here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.monitor-db.de%2F&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

-Mike

To answer your question Dennis, no. But there are some that offer the better attributes of stats. To the ones mentioned I would add the Merlin VSM-M. It is a 2-way is quick as lightning on transients, holds on to a note, decays to infinity and is tonally evenhanded like the better stats. Add to the above, world class resolution and an ability to retrieve the subtlest details of the recording providing you have the right gear in front of it.

I've only heard one stat I could live with if I had the room and the money. Most have too many compromises that offset their virtues.

Agree with Poorguy and Phasecorrect...
I own the Spendor S3/1p (2 way vented 6.5" + 20mm), and find them ideal with their SC3 cousin center as a HT front trio. Quick and seemless. My favourite CHEAP more-analytical monitor, though, is the Revel M20.
Yet for full-range reference use I've gotta say that my Parsifal Encores are incredibly stat-like quick, coherent and transparent, yet have surprisingly deep slam from an 8" woofer. The Monitor satellites alone put most stats and monitors to shame. You don't have to give up much to make the switch to dynamic drivers once you've heard these! Apparently the Piega 10 has similar proponents....

Second the Spendor recommendation...one of the few box speakers that really is very open and transparent...they are a bit colored in sound...the highs are muted and the midrange has a slight "bump" emphasis...but if you enjoy vocals...they are about as good as it gets...if you can...go deeper into the line than the 3/5...the higher models have much more bass...on the other end of the spectrum...for a more detailed, high definition "modern" monitor...the Revel M20 is very impressive...highs are a bit extended...and they can sound a bit "aggressive" with the wrong equipment...but they are very transparent...and not as laid-back as the British "old school" Spendors...2 very different sounds...both have their merits...

If you will have a chance, listen to an upgraded Newform 645's (KSU2 + Theta caps) and you will have both worlds. The imaging and speed of the Newform's 45" ribbons are stunning, life-like and magical. The bass portion is no slouched either, housing 2 Scan-speaks the goes down to 32hz. It a decent system you'll swear these speakers worth 4-5x their price delivered to your door. You will end your search once you'll hear how this speakers perform. Just my opinion.

dunlavy athenas. aplace them right and the imaging is wonderful, incredible openness, very good if not great bass. Elestrostatics may still have a slight edge on microdynamics but for overall balance i've found nirvana

The only speaker I know of that comes close to a
Electrosat , is a pair of Eggleston Rosa's . They
have one of the best tweeters ever made , the four
6" drivers are ran almost full range. I have had apogee
and Magnepan speakers that operate in the same basic way.
However to me the Magnepans sound the best in this class.
The speakers I had were apogee stages, Magnepan 1.6R , I
believe Electrostats sound good for only a short period
of time , after that they start to cut up your ears...
After years of speakers the only one I can live with
are the Eggleston Rosa's , the only dynamic speakers I know of that have the same super transparency of the mention
speakers , and with more clean powerfull bass and peak output. They also are more room friendly and are best looking speakers I ever owned..

Not that I'm looking for a replacement, but the reason I asked the question was because size is an issue when you choose to live in major downtown city like DC. Big apartments cost a lot of money, and a house is out of the question...

honestly, the Logan Aerius i have really been awesome sounding speakers. I had a chance to hear another "box" speaker that retails for around $6K matched with a great amp (one of the recommended combos for this speakers), and I liked the Aerius a lot more.

Wmcmanus, I will try to find some more English info about the Imagine speaker system.

Verity's Parsifal Encore is worth a consideration.

For my two cents I have always been partial to electrostatics since I heard a pair of dayton wrights when I was 10 years old. I won't try to characterize the sound since I would likely do it an injustice but you know what you like (or as some have said I like what I know). I would second paullindeman with regards to the p10's (or p8ltd which I have). Truly remarkable speakers. Worth a listen at least. With careful respect to all the others.

gary

Well, I haven't found any so far. The Acapella Exalibur comes close, but that is horn loaded and plasma driven. I completely agree with Duke. I would also jump at a "box" speaker, the microdynamics of which would equal an ESL, but have not been successful so far. I also use subwoofers with my wall of stators for the same reason as Duke's customer. Not to get deeper bass, but to get more punch, when things get loud and low. To be more specific, to about 80hz I use a pair of old Maggie bass panels, which integrate beautifully. They need lots of power though and then subs, cut off at 30hz, otherwise they wouldn't integrate in my room. so I have the best of both worlds, at least that's what my ears tell me. I let the stators run full spectrum, without cutting them off. Using the high pass of X-overs kills their sound. Cheers,

Spendor S3/5 is the closest I've heard so far.

Rhyno -

Well like most rules there are exceptions, and Kirk points out a significant one, as far as electrostats and low bass goes. I've had two customers tell me their Sound Lab full range electrostats measure -3 dB somewhere in the low 20's. The factory only claims upper 20's, but they will shake the room with a powerful enough amplifier (though admittedly not as vigorously as a good subwoofer can).

As with any loudspeaker, low bass output level for an electrostat is ultimately limited by displacement. And there is a tradeoff relationship between maximum diaphragm excursion and efficiency. Sound Labs have superb microdynamics, but can't match the macrodynamics of a first-rate conventional speaker - I'd say their practical limit is probably somehere between 105 and 110 dB at the listening position, given sufficient amplifier power.

I only have one Sound Lab customer (out of ballpark two dozen) who's using subwoofers, and he isn't using them to get deeper bass. Instead, he's using them to relieve the panels of having to do those long excursions, thereby increasing the macrodynamic potential of the system. He served in the artillery during the Viet Nam war, so he needs it kinda loud.

The InnerSound Eros mentioned by Tony is indeed very dynamic, both micro and macro.

As far as a box speaker that sounds like a full-range electrostat, probably the best conventional box speaker I've heard is the Intuitive Design Denali, which retails for something north of forty grand. The next closest is probably the Audio Artistry Beethoven, but that may be cheating a bit, since the Beethoven is a dynamic dipole speaker, not a "box" speaker. If I do find a box speaker that sounds like a first-rate electrostat, I'll pick up the line in a heartbeat.

Dennis, just curious - what keeps you from considering an electrostat? What are you looking for that you don't think an electrostat can deliver? Or, is it a matter of speaker size and/or placement issues?

Best wishes on your quest!

Duke

Piega P10s have the speed and resolution of electrostatics and the dynamics of box speakers - which they are. Great bass, and tremendous top to bottom coherency.

The Thiel 2.3, to a much lesser degree, have the speed and resolve of ES, but lack the real world dynamics.

sound labs have great bass. they get loud with tube research as well. if i was looking to get a box speaker to replace stats i would look at the jm lab utopia line. micros to grands. still stats have more depth in most cases, but the jms have no clear weaknesses.