Oh,I forgot/ the last test I took: I studied for hours on end. I only got a C- on my urine test. Sorry, I just want to poke some fun here. I don't think listening to music has to be that complicated. Yes, I have room treatments, power cords,isolation bases and the like. Don't you dare remove or exchange any one of these while I'm away ;I'll drive myself crazy trying to figure out what happened. |
Musicians have to be trained to listen to "systems" in very much the same way we've trained our listening acuity through the long years of our hobby. This is, because when you sit and perform in the middle of other performers, such things as soundstage, depth, et al is not of your concern and music on stage is perceived very differently from say a listening position in a hall or a club. So Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles would have been of little use to you anyway. But then I forgot, it would have been a social gathering, since you would not need their opinion anyway. Basically though, I agree with you, George. Through the years, you learn to trust your ears, you learn where you preferences are and you build your systems around those. I would rate personal contentment higher than the quest for an absolute, which you will only find in a live event anyway. All the same, I sometimes appreciate the opinion of a musically educated person, because I, like all of us, have my aural "blind" spots. |
Well,I was trying to get Ray Charles;or Stevie Wonder to come over but they had plans.Listening is so subjective; what care I if someone likes "this" over "that"? Most of "my" listening is done while I'm here. No "head in a vise" for me. I wished I could have voted for Cwlondon's post 10x's.I just got a new/used amp;I'm not listening in a frozen state of attention;things just jump out and smack me in the ears(differences)/and make me stop typing and "suck-me-in". I can clearly hear what is bettered;and what is not.(CJ 5 vs Jadis 7 mk 4.) I could hear these differences blindfolded/ or if I were deaf(probably am).I'm not insecure enough (in this area) to have need for the blindfold, (yet). |
Sorry Detlof, humor is not allowed on any Audiogon thread. I've now led you down the wrong path. I've got a -3,-1 for my humor and only a +2,+2 for what I thought was a good discription of blind testing. Oh well, rather the meek have the chance to punch there little down thumb than coming out in public disaproval of a joke. Come on you negitive voters, have the guts to write out your disaproval! J.D.
P.S. 16, I'll keep that in mind. I can easaly find them around a house with an 18 year old son and a 16 year old daughter. I let you know what I find ( I was going to say something else, but the panel of voters are watching) |
Hi Sugarbrie, fascinating point you are making. My experience were rather to the contrary though. Will put it to a double blind test (; and yes Jademo6, tell your wife its purely scientific and between you and me, they should be over 16.... |
Don: Sorry that I do not know where to direct you, but I have always been confused by people and groups that object to blind testing as I can see no reason as to why it would not be a good thing. I did a great deal of it myself years ago when I had more "party" people around to help with the ordeal and found the tests to be reassuring in a way. I will admit though that after 30 years at this hobby that I don't find it necessary anymore as I trust what I hear, but it would still be fun to conduct this type of test on occasion especially with people just getting into the hobby or casual listeners participating. As far as any auditory test goes though, it's still open to personal interpretation and taste. Lord knows that I do not agree with many of the pro reviews whether they be of Hi-fi gear, wine or whatever. |
Rgodin: "The emperor has no clothes" has no bearing when you are dealing with a 30 day return/refund policy or a cable purchased used that is easily resaleable for what it cost. This is where most of us are coming from so perhaps another slogan mighr be more appropriate. I return and resell as I see fit. |
It's often difficult to admit that the emperor has no clothes, especially after you've spent all that money on the fabric. |
Hi Don. You might experience a scintilla of confirmation or, for that matter, contradiction by perusing Audio Asylum. Proceed to the Cables Asylum and click on the link, DBT-free zone. Best wishes in the quest. Sam |
Hi Dlittle; A well written thread, but you don't tell us what experience you have had with sighted testing, or what your stereo system consists of? Respectfully, I would ask you to consider this question from the perspective of the sighted test, eg rather than looking up books, articles, or inet material, why not just try "sighted" comparisons for yourself? Have you ever actually done that? If not, I would suggest auditioning several different power cords, ICs, or speaker cables. Power cords and ICs are easy and inexpensive to audition; it usually just costs shipping. If you have decent quality components, you should definitely hear differences among some of them, but maybe not all. This would give you something with which to compare your written research. I have nothing against blind testing, but after learning critical listening skills, and this is essential, I have found that I don't need it. Good Hunting. Craig |
I don't completely agree Detlof. In my experience a lot females tend to like it when its a little grainy(clicks) and unforgiving in the treble. |
There's nothing like resorting to my 14 yr old daughter's high-sensitivity hearing of top octaves as a useful tool employed in single-blinds to guide my tweaks. Turns my p.20 fuzziness to p.50 placebo or p.05 reality pretty quickly!
Ah, but expectation bias is one of life's fruits, no? |
Hey Detlof, can I tell my wife you recommended I invite a few women over each week-end? Is there an age I should look for? J.D. |
I've found blind tests, be it in a rudementary fashion or through elaborate setups, always helpful. What is wrong about trying to objectify, what we are percieving? I tend to rely heavily on female ears. Women, as far as our hobby is concerned, seem less exposed to those bouts of occasional infatuation with this gear or another, which may be a wonderfully satisfying part of our hobby but often enough "colours" our hearing acuity. Great thread by the way. |
Great post, Don. I expecially agree with your thread that results of blind tests can be "another piece of information that we could factor in to our purchasing decisions." Dan |
HiFi Choice Magazine in Britain does a blind test with a panel, then a couple of the editors do a hands on trial, trying a few different combinations of components with the test subject. Then they compare notes with all the various tests and testers. |
There's a Canadian magazine, Ultra High Fidelity, that evaluates components by using a panel of reviewers and conducting blind tests vs. their reference system. They only change one component at a time to make sure the differences they are hearing are attributed to the item under review. They certainly hear differences; some sound better, some don't, and some components have a more subtle effect than others but there's always a difference. Perhaps try to track UHF down on the web? Jeff |
Don, I'm not sure anyone here doubts the merits of a blind test. I think what your referring to must be those threads that the subject is so easy to hear that anyone who would suggest a blind test must have no idea what there talking about. That said there are many tweaks and components that have subtle changes that some might exaggerate in there reviews. For almost every piece of equipment including cables, wires, conditioners, footers etc. that I've tried I will have a couple friends over to do my listening. I don't tell them what they are listening to or for, I will generally have only one person over at a time, and they sit in the sweat spot with a blindfold. I will have them bring over two or three disks that they themselves know well and use as reference. I will run the switching and they are to write there response , ie #1 base sound, #2 brighter, #3 less detail,... Some times I make no change, sometimes I'll put in an old power cord. I try to mix it up so I receive the best, most un-bias opinion I can. The total process takes about an hour and a half. When I'm asked to come over to their house I bring my blindfold and we do the same drill. It's a great way to share your system with friends and it really helps me to learn to listen. After about five minutes with the blind fold you really start focusing on your ears. I would guess most of us do something similar, and we have neglected to discuss this as a part of selecting equipment. Thus your post is very timely and should be considered for a good place for people to describe how they test equipment. So thank-you Don for the post, I look forward to hearing what others do. J.D. |
I think the majority of audiophiles would definitely fail blind tests in an attempt to indentify certain cherished components, especially cables and tweaky accessories. Having said that, I nonetheless find blind testing a waste of time, which misses the more important point that listening to music is FUN. If you THINK something sounds better, THEN IT DOES SOUND BETTER. Who cares if we enjoy a little placebo effect now and then?!? It's a hobby, not a trial. |
