Big speakers in small room at moderate volume levels
I made some changes to my room last night. I removed my small desk facing the speakers and the side table near the right speaker. This morning I started to test out the room again with my most fatiguing disks, such as The Smashing Pumpkins, etc... The new room sound is a revelation. These hard sounding disks no longer have that fatiguing hardness to them. My ears and head are feeling nothing bad. I removed the second office desk based on the ideas that were presented on the links @James63 posted. It made sense to remove the desk after watching those videos. My current LS50 and Peachtree are sounding rather impressive now in this room even without treatments, though I keep the entrance door opened. I have posted some photos of the new room furnishings on my virtual system. Last night, while most were partying, I went over some emails I had with a Lyngdorf dealer in New Mexico a few months back. He had actually provided me with the same answers that my personal online research ended up with. However, when he said it, I had some doubts but my research is also leading me to believe that the Lyngdorf will sound very good. The fact that my Class D Peachtree Nova is sounding so good now (though with moderate to high volume) also makes me feel good about the Lyngdorf Class D. Not all Class D are the same but I believe the Lyngdorf will be much better than the Nova. I can always try different amps with the Lyngdorf, such as the ones l mentioned in a previous post. I am going to forego demoing the Lyngdrof at a local dealer and just buy it from the remote dealer. He seems like an expert on the unit and he is a huge advocate for it, that knowledge is worth a lot to me. One important thing he said was that in my room any speaker with a small profile will work, such as the Magico A3, KEF Ref 1, KEF Ref 3, I also assume the even narrower Vandersteen Treo CT will work. He also said that placing the speaker closer to the front wall (not against) is better for the Lyngdorf. With the Magico A3 and the Vandersteen Treo CT this is not a problem at all. So I have the following things to do: 1) Wait for the room treatments and party with those in place for a while 2) Save some pennies to buy the Lyngdorf 3400. That can occur anytime this week to the end of March. 3) Demo the Harbeth at home, demo the Magico A3 at home after I get the Lyngdorf. Compare them to the Vandersteen Treo CT. My feeling is that the Treo CT will fit sound wise in between the Harbeth and Magico A3 sound. The Harbeth is not narrow but it is not a bass master like the other 2. This has to be a speaker for very long hours of play every day. To make things interesting, and the Lyngdorf is the reason for this new thought, I have another speaker that I have been very interested in for years now. This is my thread from some time back, https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/yamaha-ns-5000 This is not available in the USA but it is now in Canada, at a dealer just a few miles from my mom and dad’s home. It would cost me about the price of the TAD ME1 to have it shipped to me in California. It is a stand-mount but it has deep bass and it does NOT have a narrow profile. I am going to keep an eye on this one while I become an expert with the Lyngdorf. I am listening to The Smiths self-title disc now and it is sounding so good. I have owned the LS50s since 2012 and used them in many bad rooms. I think this room is now the best room I have ever had the LS50’s. I don’t recall them sounding this good. I have had better electronics on the LS50’s but the room improvements I made last night are a bigger factor than the change of amps and DAC. Nice way to start the New Year. |
With the buy decision made on the Lyngdorf and my room now sounding good even without treatments, another speaker that I think I can add back into the picture is the Vivid Kaya line. I went to hear this speaker the same day as the Magico A3 | Vandersteen Treo CT | Vivid Kaya 90. I thought the Kaya 90 was the best of the bunch but it was rather rich for my pocket book and also too big in sound. My listening time with the Vivid Kaya 90 was real short but what I heard sounded somewhat like the KEF Blade. Prior to the Lyngdorf, I thought the Kaya would not fit in my space. However, it does have some things that would work real well with the Lyngdorf. It can be placed very close to the back wall. I got this info from the dealer I visited and also heard this from an email with one of the principals at Vivid Audio in South Africa. He described the placement they sometimes had to use in small hotel room demos. The Kaya also has a Lyngdorf approved narrow front profile (facing the listener). https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/vivid-kaya-45s.5380/ https://7review.com/vivid-kaya-45-review/ This link above has a photo of the middle item in the current Kaya lineup. It has less bass than the Kaya 90 that I heard (a good thing for my room). It is also cheaper. Finances are also fluid and I maybe able to raise some pennies for the Kaya 45. I just need to live with the Lyngdorf for a few months and really understand what it’s limits are. In other words I am not going to jump in on a speaker purchase. Today, it seems to me that I have a lot more options in getting good sound in this room. My wife is on board with this office audio upgrade of mine and looking forward to getting the KEF LS50 and Peachtree Nova into her loft office space in the house. She listens to music via the iPhone and the Peachtree has some enhancements to facilitate that in a semi-decent manner. Her loft space is actually rather amazing acoustically. |
@gdnrbob That Kaya line is rather impressive, at least the Kaya 90 that I heard. I am going to demo another speaker his Friday that I heard demoed by the same store reps a few years ago in a really bad (small) hotel room. This time the demo will be at their shop. It is the Paradigm Persona 5F driven by Simaudio. I am really only interested in the Persona 3F because I think it should fit my room and also comparable to the 2 other speakers I have under consideration and already heard, the Magico A3 and Vandersteen Treo CT. They only have the 5F for demo. It could be more coherent than the Magico A3 since the materials in the mid and tweeter are the same on the Persona line. Should be interesting since this is such a polarizing speaker on this forum and with some reviewers. I was reading an online review on the Persona B and the reviewer stopped it half way and said I hate it no need to continue. Never seen that before. When I heard it in the bad room a few years ago I thought it had a lot of potential and I should listen to it again. |
@justsntherhifiguy Congrats, is this going to be your arrangement, but with the gr12? "enter the coherent line of speakers. he is local and i have had an opportunity to hear his speakers. they are very nice sounding. i am probably going to purchase a pair of his gr10 speakers. they will be placed on my wall that measures 9.5 feet wide and I will try to get them placed as far apart as I can, most likely 6 feet apart with 1.5 feet from side walls and 4 feet away from front wall. i will sit 6 feet away and 4 feet into the room. this will be a nearfield positioning for sure." How about posting a photo of your system on the virtual systems section and giving some feedback. I find the systems in the small rooms are the most interesting for me to read about because you have so many issues to deal with. It is interesting to see how folks solve these issues. BTW - are you in Stoney Creek, Ontario? I went to McMaster University. |
I added some more photos as requested by A’gon member. Today, I did some more exploring in Canada for the Yamaha NS5000. Canadian dealer will find out if there are any legal reasons why this speaker cannot be imported into the USA. Dealer has no issue getting me the speaker to my home. He will take care of all the paperwork. GIK Treatments were delayed shipping last week and were only shipped today. So sometime next week will be when I should have them. List of speakers that I think will now work with acoustic treatments and DSP. 1) Vandersteen Treo CT (heard it but need 1 on 1 demo this time) 2) Vivid Kaya 90 (heard it but only Kaya 45 or Kaya 25 will work in my room. Not really interested in the 25, need 1 on 1 demo this time) 3) Magico A3 (Heard it and liked it) 4) Harbeth SHL5+ (Have not heard it but will call local dealer in 2 weeks) 5) Paradigm Persona 5F (Will hear it again tomorrow with DSP though the Persona 3F is what I would want for the room) 5) Yamaha NS5000 (Have not heard it, but very interested in it, classified as a bookshelf but it really is not). https://www.avhub.com.au/product-reviews/hi-fi/yamaha-ns-5000-loudspeakers-review-test-488372 " I am surprised at how effectively you are able to tune the NS-5000’s bass response with the bungs—Yamaha has obviously put some very serious design effort into ensuring these alignments are truly effective in adjusting the low-frequency response." 6) KEF Reference 1, TAD ME1 (Will work in my room but lack of enthusiasm for them) My understanding of the sound characteristics of my list from musical-to-detailed sound (left to right): Harbeth, Vandersteen, Yamaha, TAD, Magico, KEF, Paradigm. Some rounding error likely present. |
@tobaccoleafpie Are u referring to ALL of the floor standers on my list or just a specific one? One way to alleviate the frustration of not being able to drive the office speaker to the max ability is to have an equal or better system downstairs in the rather large space which is a playroom at the moment. That will take some lottery ticket luck and also a bit more time for my toddler to get a bit older. I need to share his playroom with my big rig. |
http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Linn_Account_Space_Optimisation#Why_does_Space_Optimisation_no... A different way to do DSP from the Lyngdorf approach. Why does Space Optimisation not use a microphone measurement?The aim of Space Optimisation is to remove the effects of your room, in order to uncover the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers; after all, this is what you fell in love with when buying your speakers. In order to do this, Space Optimisation needs to understand both the interactions between your speakers and room and the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers; the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers are then subtracted from the interactions between your speakers and room, leaving only the effects of your room. |
This afternoon I skipped work and went to audition the Paradigm Persona 5F. I was going to listen with Simaudio gear but they also had the Lyngdorf 2170 and I decided to have a demo of that unit instead of buying it blind from my remote dealer. Room was about 2x the size of my office (likely even bigger). They did not have the smaller Persona 3F which is what I would want for my room. They hooked up the Lyngdorf to the Persona 5F instead and we had a listen. The sales guy never had demoed the Lyngdorf and Persona line together. They usually use Mac and sometimes Simaudio. We played 1 song from Vanessa Fernandez and I looked at the sales guy and asked is this the way the Persona should sound. I wanted to run out of the room, it was way too bright. He said something is wrong. It turned out that the Lyngdorfs sub connection was turned on and we were missing the low end. I have recently started to listen to this singer on my KEF LS50 system and have a general understanding how she should sound. That was fixed and we listened again with all the Lyngdorf DSP turned off. The room was rather good so I wanted to hear the system without Room Perfect to see how the amp sounded. That was one of the issues I was concerned about in my original topic posting. The Lyngdorf was not calibrated for Room Perfect in that room with the Persona 5F, so today, it was not possible to hear RP even if I wanted too. The sound was not that "rewarding" for a lack of better audiophile terminology, it just was not that great. So I asked the sales guy again is this what the Persona can do and he said it is not the best he has heard it. He thought maybe the Lyngdorf was under powered for the 5F. Before we called it a day we had one more configuration to go. That was to use the RCA pre-amp out of the Lyngdorf to the XLR input of a Simaudio 860A amp. Now we were in business with sound quality. The sound of the Persona 5F was stunning with the Simaudio. The harshness was gone, the sound we incredible to listen to. Layered, spooky holographic, and large sound-stage. One disk I thought that would highlight the holographic sound I was witnessing was Emmylou Harris’s WREAKING BALL. I not sure if this is a real good recording but it has some severe atmospheric effects to the sound. We played the second cut and I was drawn into the sound so much that I began to visual Emmylou singing in a moving car. The Daniel Lanois studio effects on that track gave me that totally unexpected sensation of movement. I have heard this disk for years but not to this level of involvement. The other tracks I heard also had some great coherent sound quality to it. I get it why they say the Persona line has a spooky holographic sound. I am a believer. I was interested in hearing this speaker because I thought it (or the 3F) as a direct competitor to the Magico A3. I thought that the BE tweeter and mid of the Persona may give it an edge in coherence. That is exactly what I heard. I played the same tracks as on the Magico A3 and I liked the sound appreciably better on the Persona 5F. So the Magico is now dropped off my list for consideration. That is just me, others may have a different take on these 2. However, I am not sure if I could listen to the Persona for 8 to 10 hours a day. I need a DSP configured demo in my home to know for sure. I am not too enamored by the amplification on the Lyngdorf 2170 (maybe the Lyngdorf 3400 is much better). However, I am not willing to pay the price for the 3400 to find out. So I am now looking at alternatives. 1) There is a Macintosh DSP unit that only does DSP and is supposed to be the exact same licensed technology as in the Lyngdorf. The Simaudio 390 network player would be connected to the Mac and then a separate amp would also be used. I am not sure about the order of connections. I will demo this if my research leads me in this direction. I would not be wasting money on amplification with the Simaudio 390 since it does not have any. 2) Buy the 2170 to use just for the DSP and the preamp functionality (which worked beautifully with the Simaudio amp). Add a separate amp. Wasteful solution because I am throwing away the amplification of the Lyngdorf. 3) Investigate the recommended DSP network player from the dealer. https://www.linn.co.uk/technology/space-optimisation I have never heard of the DSP features on the Linn. It sounds rather interesting. They even have a separate unit in this system to make speaker drivers operate in PHASE. This is supported for a couple of speakers on my list (maybe not important, do not know yet): Vivid Kaya 45 Harbeth SHL5+ I imagine the Persona 3F and the Yamaha NS5000 would be eventually supported. They already support other Paradigm and Yamaha speakers. The dealer had the top of the line Linn DSP system with the active stand mount monitors and it sounded rather good. I liked the Persona 5F better but the issue here was the DSP capabilities and not comparing the speakers. One thing for certain is that I will NOT get a stand mount speaker, that ship has sailed. Today’s demo sealed the deal for me. So the KEF Reference 1 and TAD ME1 are both out. This Persona demo has made me even more interested in the Yamaha NS5000 which has all 3 drivers, tweeter, mid, and bass all made from the same material that is marketed as better than the Persona’s BE material. It is also supposed to be a very sweet sounding speaker good for very long hours of play. Similar in that characteristic to the Harbeth and Vandersteen. I will hear the Harbeth but now likely only after I have selected my DSP engine. I will ask for a home demo of the Lyngdorf or whatever DSP engine I buy. |
This is likely the analogues Linn unit to the Lyngdorf https://www.linn.co.uk/sources/network-music-players/selekt#comparison-table http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Selekt_DSM https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/linn-selekt-dsm-review
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@tomic601 You are mocking my audio demoing skills. The chocolate was good though. BTW - I sent the following chocolates to a few friends and family last week. They are incredible (from Japan). Bring these home next time you buy some speakers and you are OK, https://order.royceconfectusa.com/collections/gift-set/products/signature-nama-chocolate-bundle @gosta It was not just me that found the amp lacking on the Lyngdorf. Both the dealer and I thought it sounded rather poor. We actually both cheered when we heard the same song on the Simaudio. Some awesome news by the dealer I went to see in Woodland Hill, CA Shelley's Stereo REGARDING THE LINN/LYNGDORF A/B DEMOTheir conference room has 2 large banks of glass walls and is a bit bigger than my office. If the DSP can tame that room then DSP works. This will be an incredible demo. Not sure when I will schedule this. |
Here is the link to the Mac DSP system licensed from Lyngdorf https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/specialty-products/MEN220 http://www.tonepublications.com/review/mcintosh-men-220/ https://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-magic I have never been fans of Linn and Mac and now I am looking at these products. Times change. |
@gosta You are correct about Vanessa Fernandez and her recordings, the dealer mentioned the same thing to me about the recording I selected. The recording sounded bad with the Lyngdorf amp (bright), then with the Simaudio amp, the brightness was gone. I am not sure if I would call it sweet sounding either. I was easily able to determine this by the physical reaction inside my ears. With the Lyngdorf amplification my ears were feeling some pressure or irritant with the Simaudio the music was pain free and fun to listen, I would not say it was sweet. I do think the Lyngdorf preamp stage has tremendous potential for me. It sounded really good direct to the Simaudio. The Linn SELEKT that I researched last night is a direct competitor to the Lyngdrof. In both price and features. It does the DSP in a different way (see my post above). The dealer that I went to see yesterday is also a Yamaha dealer and he is a little bummed that the NS5000 is not being distributed in the USA. The Canadian dealer is also a Persona and Yamaha dealer so I am going to pick his brain on the differences between the 2 units. The USA dealer I went to see yesterday has the Arc2, Room Perfect, and SPACE optimization DSP engines. He also has the non-DSP Simaudio 390 Network player along with the Macintosh DSP unit that has licensed the Lyngdorf Room Perfect DSP. He will be my pre-amp dealer because I am almost certain I will need DSP since I am 100% going for a floor stander, being true to the title of this tread. No stand mounts for the office. This search has now become a little more interesting because a few amps that I want to try now become viable or needed (an integrated is out). These include the following: - Benchmark AHB2 (should sound great with the Yamaha, Harbeth, and Vandersteen) - KRELL XD 125 - CODA (I was looking at getting more Class A for my $$) - Pass Labs (spoke with the guys at Reno Hifi and prices are doable) - Mark Levinson (a little expensive but agreeable sound) - Simaudio (maybe, if I go with the 390 network player + the Macintosh DSP) Amps are a little bit more fun and easier to evaluate. Less complications, the DSP stuff is not for the faint of heart. BTW - is the RP-1 Lyngdorf using the latest and greatest DSP tech from Lyngdorf or is it older Lyngdorf tech? The key to this question I believe is the Texas instruments chip and the software algorithms. I also searched on the dealer music system to find a Lou Rawls song. I have recently started listening to his deep catalog and I love that guys baritone voice. Unfortunately, I could not find that song and I need to take my glasses next time. I think he is at the level of Roberta Flack. @gdnrbob The Lyngdorf cannot make one speaker sound like another. It retains a speakers signature sound and tailors it to the acoustical space that it is placed in. I am a laymen with regards to the latest DSP tech but this is as how I understand it. |
A good source for Yamaha NS5000 http://www.livingsound.com.au/2017/01/yamaha-ns-5000/ https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2625537-yamaha-ns-5000-speakers-debut-taves-2016-a.html#p... Good sound off-axis and non-fatiguing. Keep factors for me in the office. |
@tomic601 Thanks for the demoing tunes. I am not too good on remembering audiophile demo music but I do have a few standards that test the kid enjoyment factor in me, such as Rush - YYZ | Tom Sawyer and Rolling Stones - Slave. If the those tunes don't sound good or make me happy then there is no point in continuing. I should really keep a list of speaker test tunes like the ones you mentioned. I am thinking over the pros and cons of the DSP stuff I heard and even though I hated the amp section of the Lyngdorf I am inclined to buy the even more expensive Lyngdorf 3400 just for the DSP preamp and the XLR analogue out to the external amps. That part sounded extremely good to me during the demo. I will work with the dealer to figure this out, but it is good to have a solution in the back pocket. Lyngdorf seems to have discontinued some of the DSP products that do not have the amplification built-in. The dealer seems to prefer the Linn SELEKT DSM system. I will see if he can convince me why that maybe better. The Linn has the perfect configuration for the digital preamp options I need. The Anthem ARC2 should also be discussed with the dealer. As much as I loved the Persona 5F I am thinking it is may not be a long hours office type of speaker. I was a little under the weather yesterday so I need to do another demo of the Persona. I will listen to this again with DSP on at the dealer maybe in a smaller room. It did not help to mess up my head in the beginning with those bad sound issues. I also need to eat a meal before I demo, not the best way to do this eating chocolates. So down to 5 speakers: Harbeth HLS5+ (not a small stand mount) Vandersteen Treo CT Paradigm Persona 3F (does not sound like KEF to me) Vivid Kaya 45 (Sounds a bit like KEF to me) Yamaha NS5000 (not a small stand mount) |
@ctsooner All of the speakers I have focused on I have heard, except for the Harbeth and the Yamaha. Of the ones I have heard I think the Persona is my favorite. I could easily live with any of the others in my office. I am not too worried about the speakers. I am also not worried about the separate external amplification or network player. All of these are of high quality that I am looking at. Almost any permutation of the speakers, amps, Network players I have identified would make for a good system (in a big room). I am only concerned about 1 thing now and that is making a big speaker fit into the small room in a manner so that I can enjoy a good deal of the systems capability. To that end I have done a few things such as cleaning up the room of furniture and getting acoustic treatments. The last thing I am doing, which is to explore DSP, is something that the DSP guys are saying will make my goal a reality. If I stay in my room lane and get an appropriate sized speaker (small stand mount) I may not need DSP. However, I am trying to do fit an inappropriate sized speaker into this room. The DSP demo I have scheduled will tell me if I have solved the problem. With regards to the Treo CT I have only heard them with Bryston Cubed stack. The Lyngdorf issue I described was the amplification stage driving the Persona 5F, it was not good. However, the Lyngdorf preamp section impressed the heck out of me and is my leading contender for those duties. The dealer did mention to me that the combo we discovered, Lyngdorf preamp+Simaudio amp was the best he has heard the Persona 5F. That Persona demo so impressed me that I am now questioning the purchase of the Blade for the downstairs. A large Persona speaker, such as the 9H, is heavier and hard from my kid to move. The Blades are rather easier to dislodge. The front facing woofers on the Persona maybe easier to place compared to the side firing Blade drivers. I still like the Blade more but from a practicality standpoint the Persona is compelling for my downstairs. This is a digression from this thread. |
@jackd I heard the Legacy top of the line speakers in what I thought looked like a very good hotel room a few years ago. They had the DSP setup but it was not too my tastes, the bass was way too heavy. Now what that means is that the guy setting up the system had different preferences from me.Given the accolades to the Legacy speakers I doubt that was a good setup. However, I have never considered Legacy ever since that demo. The best part about that demo was meeting the son of PS Audio founder. He started telling me about ROON and to not buy anything until I heard it. It was 6 months prior to release of ROON. I bought a lifetime membership just from that guys recommendation on the first week of release and I am very happy I did. The Linn SELEKT DSM that I mentioned above is a direct competitor to the Lyngdorf. It is more modular in design with more ambition, they have the something called the EXACT system and also some speaker matching system (including 3rd party speakers). Somewhat like the Devialet SAM concept (SAM is not DSP). The Linn DSP implementation is not with a microphone, but uses detailed room measurements Lyngdorf says they are a 3-D microphone setup. It will be interesting to see which, if any, sounds better. I have not heard anyone talking about the Linn SELEKT on A'gon like they do for the Lyngdorf. The dealer prefers the Linn, Lyngdorf, and Arc2 in that order, but the also sell more elaborate Linn systems using SPACE Optimization as the basic framework. So that may have something to do with the preference. @gosta I was listening to the Lyngdorf 2170. The dealer was wondering if it was under powered for the Persona 5F. I am thinking no, and we were playing Vanessa Rodriguez track which dud not have too much dynamics when I said this is not good sound. The 3400 is the unit I would consider, mainly for the XLR analog out. I also understand that there are more eq features but those features have a smaller effect than the base Room Perfect. @tomic601 Since u like Emmylou Harris. How about listening to that second track on Wreaking Ball on the Treo CT and give a description of the sound you hear. It is not about soundstage or imaging on this track but the sound effects. I really had never heard it before in my Revel Salon 1, Thiel SCS4. I don't remember listening to it on my Audience 1+1 V3 . All these speakers are sold. I am listening to that track now on my LS50 and I do hear what I heard at the demo but it is not prominent in the LS50. If I did not know to listen for it I would not have noticed. What I am describing is an atmospheric effect. To me that effect gives me the visualization of some sort of movement or motion, like the singer in a moving car. Daniel Lanois was on a bit of a roll in those days, Emnylous Harris, Robbie Robertson, U2, Peter Gabriel. BTW - this recording is giving me a bit of ear fatigue in my room with the LS50's. Need to check this CD out after the GIK treatments. |
@gosta I noticed it a little after the start and through out the song. I noticed the song iitle is "GOODBYE". I did not know that during the demo. The dealer skipped to that song after HE did not like the first one. So maybe there is something to the song title and the effect that I seem to have hallucinated. |
BTW - don't take my comment on the dealer skipping the track as a negative thing. It was a collaborative thing with he and I to get the sound correct with the Persona 5F. A real fun demo. I am trying to convince my brother-in-law to go to the Canadian dealer and demo the Yamaha, he lives close by If he cannot my dad can once he arrives back from his winter retreat. @tomic601 Thanks for the tune suggestions. Listening to Emmylou this morning segued me to some Linda Ronstadt. Have not listened to these ladies in a while. |
I should have investigate the DEQX DSP system too. Funny this is I actually heard a bit of the DEQX system at the Persona demo. The Kyron speaker system with the single box electronics by DEQX. I did not pay too much attention because they were getting the Persona setup and replacing the Kyrons. https://www.facebook.com/KyronAudio/?__tn__=KH-R&eid=ARCSJf3LgwxzVsJm078jw-u0EmS8IkFUANYgIM0zpMf... The big component in the middle is the DEQX electronics. I asked a question in the DEQX Game changer thread for some comparison with the 3 DSP systems I will hear soon and the DEQX HDP-5. https://www.deqx.com/products/hdp-5/ https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-deqx-a-game-changer? |
@tomic601 One of the tuners I have is a modified Sony XDR-F1HD. It was rather low cost but surprisingly decent quality. However, it is a bear to use and I maybe interested in selling it for something else. I do not have the dollars to do this yet but I expect in the next 3 to 6 months to be substantial audio shopping time for me. I will give you a holler if the audio gods align with my plans. https://www.amazon.com/Sony-XDR-F1HD-Radio-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00168Q248 |
Interesting take by Linn on DSP. These are fighting words against the approach taken my Lyngdorf and Antherm. https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/want-true-room-correction-drop-the-mic |
@erik_squires My room treatments from GIK arrive today. I will listen with them for a while, though I do not have a big speaker to pressure my room. There are some short comings in my untreated room that can be improved upon. So I will be listening for that with my current speakers after the treatments. I have a demo with the Linn | Lyngdorf | and Anthem using an external Simaudio amp (maybe 860A). This will be done using the Paradigm Persona B or 5F in a bad conference room with 2 (or 3) sides with glass pane walls. I will see which DSP is up to the task in that room. I have heard KEF Reference 1 in a different room with only 1 big glass window (no DSP) and it sounded awful. KEF Reference 1 in a better room was great. The dealer is prefers Lyngdorf and Linn over Anthem DSP. I shall see. This test may take a while until I get my finances in order to buy the unit I like best at that demo. |
@drewan77 posted the following response to a DSP question I posted on the DEQX game changer thread. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-deqx-a-game-changer/post?postid=1681789#1681789 |
@mheinze When I first heard the Persona 5F with the Lyngdrof 2170 I was ready to go home after 5 minutes. I selected the Lyngdorf because of the DSP feature. We did not use DSP during the demo because the room was rather large and the DSP was not as crucial as in my office. I wanted a sense of the Lyngdorf without DSP (a pure amp test). The Lyngdorf sans DSP was truly awful with the Persona 5F. I imagine it sounded exactly like you are describing in your demo. I asked the dealer if this sounded correct and he said no. He agreed it sounded bad. I asked what he demos the Persona with and he said Macintosh. I am not a big Mac fan and luckily they had sold all their Mac amps the previous month. I asked them to use the analog preamp out (RCA) of the Lyndgorf and connect it to the Simaudio 860A amp (had to convert to XLR on the amp I think). This was a glorious sound. just fantastic. I liked it more that the Magico A3 and Mark Levinson combo. Most of the things I was looking for were very equivalent between the 2 speakers except that I got the sense that there was better integration of the tweeter and mid on the Persona. I also listened to the Magico A3 with the Benchmark DAC3 + AHB2 amp and it was not as good as with the Mark Levinson 585 integrated. I sold the Benchmark gear after that. So this was a great example to me of how the pairing of gear is really important. Another reason I was willing to give the Persona more of a chance to shine. The dealer mentioned to me that the Lyngdorf + Simaudio 860A combo was the best he had heard the Persona 5F. I can see how people have ran out after listening to the Persona. The top end can be bright with the wrong electronics. On the online forums I read a lot of people suggesting pairing up the Persona with amps that I think would be awful with then, such as, Bryston, Benchmark AHB2. I am sure others but these 2 are amps I have owned and I think they would not sound good with the Persona. At the moment the Persona is my choice but I have a few more speakers to go. I would look for a warm sounding SS amp to drive the Persona. I do have concerns that the Persona may not be ideal for 8 hours, but that is just a guess. I will do another demo later with the DSP stuff and come to a better conclusion. Being in Germany have you had the opportunity to hear the Yamaha NS 5000? Now that speaker has some radical design and material. |
@mheinze The Pass should have been a good match for the Persona for my ears. I think I would have liked the demo you had in Germany. You may really hate some amps I have owned in the past. I thought the Simaudio was warm sounding compared to those other amps. I am not necessarily a fan of DSP. I am just not a fan of small rooms. I will tolerate DSP if the small room can be fixed. Sly and the Family Stone said - "Different stokes for different folks". I think that is what we are seeing here. |
@gosta The DEQX can be used by newbies like me however, it is a bit more involved. The first step is to take it your backyard and then take mic measurements without any wall interfering. I don't think I am going to go to all that trouble for my office system. I will focus on the easier Linn | Lyngdorf | Anthem units. @dbass I am conflicted to say anything bad about the Audience 1+1 V3 because I never had them in a good room. I had them in maybe the worst room of anyone on A'Gon for 8 months and then for 1 month in my current office. Let's just talk about how they sounded in my untreated office. They had a certain clarity that was awesome. I mentioned in some posts that I got the sense I was in the studio with musicians. The LS50s do not take me there like that. I originally had them with the Benchmark DAC3L + AHB2 amp and this aspect of clarity really stood out with this gear. I tried the same combo with my LS50's and they could not match the Audience in this respect. The thing that bugged me to no end was the poor imaging I was getting with them. When I switched to the LS50 the imaging was better. The soundstage seemed better with the LS50. The bass was better with the LS50 but I in some ways having less bass on the Audience could have been better to integrate a sub. I never did a sub. I was also sitting a little of axis so that did not help matters. In my current office I gave the dipole Audience 1+1 about 14-18 inches from the back wall. Maybe more was needed but I did not want the speaker too close to me. I just got my GIK panels and I have them temporarily setup until I speak with the GIK rep tomorrow. Even with this likely incorrect setup my LS50's are sounding the best they ever have in the office. So I imagine the Audience was also suffering from poor room acoustics. They are a good speaker, maybe better than the LS50s but at the time I was making the decision as to what to sell, in the bad acoustic room, the LS50 was better. I will send you a private message to contact the person who bought my Audience and discuss with him. |
@audiotroy The Personas were NOT fatiguing in the 1 hour I listened to them with the correct gear. The Lyngdorf pre and the Simaudio 860A amp. I really loved it. I think I could get the gear sorted out to make it sound even better. I do have concerns about listening for 8+ hours. Just a hunch and until I do so I will not know for certain. I do not know if you are paying attention to this thread but today after my GIK treatments my system (Peachtree Nova and KEF LS50) are sounding the best they ever have sounded. I could listen all night to this. I am going to listen to the room treatments I now have with the LS50’s for a few weeks and think over this idea of me requiring a floor stander, maybe I won’t. The TAD ME1 with stands is $10K MSRP today. A lot of things are changing. Some exciting amps are also being released very soon. Getting back to the Persona. I was really impressed by them. I actually understand your posts about them. I may even agree they could be better than the KEF Blades which I love. I have room downstairs for either a Blade or 9H and I know you have both for demo. I also know that you guys know how to show these speakers. However, as I mentioned before that downstairs system is for another day and I will not need the type of effort I am putting into this office system to make that one sound great. BTW - For the last few days, I have been thinking about the T+A HV amp with a DSP streamer for a floorstander. The T+A is on A'gon for $9K. There is also the new CODA amp that Teajay is raving about. The new Krell u are raving about. A lot of options. |
I am going over user comments on the Linn forum on the SPACE Optimization system. Seems like a real PITA to me. Maybe the simpler Lyngdorf | Anthem microphone approach is the way to go (if I decide to use DSP). I was also wondering how I would enter the GIK panels into the Linn SPACE system. Seems like a very complicated approach. As a software developer myself, I do not like complex designs. https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/129719-linn-space-optimisation/ BTW - Great late night disk. Portishead - Dummy |
I received the GIK panels and have installed them without knowing what I am doing. Once I contact the GIK rep tomorrow and get the placement done with his guidance I will post some new photos. I though I would post some thoughts the GIK rep gave me when we were evaluating my room. "Thanks for the pictures. That worked well and they were very clear...all good there." |
My wife walked into my office just now and almost busted a gut laughing at my panels. She is a normal person. The best reaction to my audio stuff occurred when my sister and her husband came to visit my bachelor pad in the Bay Area. As you open the front door you are greeted by the 3CPOish Revel Salon 1. She looked at the speaker with her eyes just amazed and first thing she said looking at her husband, "don’t you get any ideas". Now back to regular programming: The sound with the panels is rather spectacular already. I am currently playing Siamese Dream by the Smashing Pumpkins. This was the disk that I mentioned was real tough to listen to a few weeks ago. Now back to back listens have been real comfortable without any fatigue. The sound is so much better now. The bass is better the imaging is better. The system actually sounds bigger and the speakers are disappearing real well. Makes me question my desire to get a big floor stander in here. I need to think this over some more. Give it some time for this excitement to wear off. I spoke with someone who has also demoed the Pesona 3F and he was telling me that the Persona 3F for 8 hours a day maybe a bad thing. Now this is the same thing I said to my dealer after the demo. I did however say I loved how it sounded in the 1 hour we listened. Nothing is settled with me on the Persona. So far it is the leading contender because I think it sounded the best, but there are a few more speakers to go. I may have to also rethink my decision on the TAD ME1. Considering the great sound of the LS50 today. An uber stand mount like the TAD ME1 maybe great in this room even WITHOUT DSP. Anyways, things are progressing in a very positive way. BTW - heard some new music I like a few days ago on KCRW. Sister Disco - Disco Royale (on Tidal). They have a 3 song EP. |
That TAD ME1 price drop was brought to my attention last night. The recommendation in the past was try the Harbeth SHL5+ and if price is not a concern then the TAD ME1 is the way to go (a better Harbeth). That was when the TAD was $15K with stands today it is $10K with stands. I just got off the phone with Mike Major at GIK and we went over the placement details. As I mentioned in some posts above I did not know what I was doing last night (but still got great sound) but he set me straight on what to do. The only thing remaining for me to do is the placement of the side panels using the "Mirror Technique". I will do that later in the evening once my wife gets home. I will also move my CD rack to the another area of the house and clean up that left side wall so I have more flexibility in left side wall panel placement. Mirror Technique - Sit on the listening chair facing speakers. Have someone with a mirror place the mirror on the side wall and have her move toward you along the wall. When you, siting on the listening chair, see the left speaker, via the left side wall mirror, you mark that sport as a reflection point. That is where the panels for the side wall reflection needs to be placed. Then apply same technique for the right speaker. So my thoughts a few weeks ago were to wait for the GIK treatments and listen to the room with my existing components. Well last night I can see that even with less than correct GIK setup the room sounded the best it ever has. The system sounded so much bigger and sounded like a fatigue free good system. That was one of the points of this thread to get fatigue free bigger sound. I will listen to this GIK treated room for a little while and think it over as to what to do next. I can see now that for a stand mount I will not need DSP to get great sound. For the floor standers that I am considering (including the Yamaha NS 5000) I will likely need DSP and maybe more treatments. The ceiling and my closet are the prime candidates. Added treatments to the ceiling is a no go, for aesthetics and house reasons. So other than the Magico A3 all speaker options I have listed in the past are on the table. The TAD ME1 is something to consider at the new price and considering the sound I am getting with the similar sized LS50’s. One advantage of the TAD ME1 is the ability to use one of those new relatively low priced, high quality integrated amps that are being released. I mentioned a few earlier. With a bigger speaker I am looking at a good DSP capable preamp connected to a good amp. I mentioned 3 preamps above. Both are attractive options in there own way. My son is sick at the moment and I may not play music today while he sleeps to test the system. Though, I will post photos of the GIK optimal setup and descriptions of the GIK suggestions later tonight. GIK have more suggestions for the room but they told me to not buy everything at once and do it one step at a time. I maybe done with the panels since it already sounds good. |
I have added photos of the new setup. I removed the CD rack from the room,it was in the way of the left side wall panel. The setup I have is likely what most people with treatments have done. It has really transformed my room. The LS50s sound really impressive now. Well as impressive as it can with the Peachtree Nova 150. The gear is good (though not at low volume) but I am now looking to get to another level of sound with new gear. This existing system will go to a bedroom or some other room. I would say for 19/20 songs I play the sound is non-fatiguing and checks of all the good things I want to hear. That 20th track sometimes gives a little bit of badness, usually a bit too much bass but sometimes a little bit of treble. This can be seen in Neil Young's HEART OF GOLD's harmonica (treble). Adjustments of the side panels have improved this harmonica greatly. It is not really a big deal, just not perfect. Mike Major at GIK was the one responsible for this setup and panel choices so kudos to him. Highly recommended. He does think I can improve this room even more but I do not want to add too much more panels for aesthetic reasons. He suggested ceiling treatment and also to go to town on the closet because he says that is not a good area. In a small room any small adjustment or change seems to be easy to spot. For example, I had a lot of CD cases lying on the ground while I moved the CD rack to another room. I decided to do some office work while the CD's lay on the ground and the music playing. That did not last too long. It was like ice picks in my right ear. I removed the CD's and gave my ears a rest. All was good after that. Also notice I sit facing the left wall. Mike Major was saying this was also a reason my sound was so bad prior to treatments. My off-axis sitting position is no longer a problem. I am thinking of playing around with my speaker positioning now that the acoustics are controlled. |
Now it is time to figure out what gear to get. First thing is to get a preamp that is DSP capable. I want something that has defeatable DSP and also good quality DSP. I do not need DSP with the KEF LS50’s. I may not with the TAD ME1 but the other speakers I am thinking of I likely need DSP help. The speaker I want to fit into this room is the Yamaha NS 5000. Just because it would be interesting to own that speaker. The Persona 3F is high on the list but long term listening is uncertain. The Vandersteen Treo CT seems like it will now fit into the room. The Vivid Kaya 45 would be great for the room now but it may be too close to the KEF sound. If I raise the cash that I am expecting then I will splurge a little on a demo amp (will keep quiet on this one). The store with the amp I want also has the Vandersteen and Vivid. So I will demo those 2 speakers if I have cash for the amp. If I do not get this $$ amp there are a few new amps coming out that I am interested in, the CODA #8, KRELL XD 125, and some older models. Amp will be easy to select. I really don’t have too much more to add now until I demo the DSP preamps. |
@tomic601 I will take a look at the Home Depot panels. I can walk to Home Depot so it will be easy to check out. I am currently listening to Led Zeppelin’s debut and I was thinking why does this sound so good now. I know the acoustic panels made a huge difference but the sound seemed even better than expected. It tuned out I now have hi-res versions of Zeppelin. I do not recall when I got that but I can definitely hear the hi-res difference with this setup. I am also upsampling on ROON. I may end up using this disc as my baseline for my speaker demos. I am curious how this album sounds on a speaker with more bass and resolution. The sound stage is not that deep with my Peachtree and LS50’s but I having a feeling that is available in the 1’s and 0’s. |
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/kef-ls50-david-versus-jbl-4722-cinema-goliath-speaker-compari... I think what I am hearing now with the LS50's is what the above article is showing with measurements. |
Narrowed it down to 3 speakers Paradigm Persona 3F (love the Persona 5F not heard the smaller 3F) Vivid Kaya 45 (a floor stander that will fit a small room) Yamaha NS5000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeUW-hBtc8Q I will be going to a dealer DSP preamp shootout once I get funds together. I will use the new preamp and amp with the KEF LS50's for the short term. I will wait until the Yamaha hits the USA before I buy speakers because I want to audition the NS5000. Depending on the DSP preamp I select I am looking at the following amps: Anthem STR |
The new less goofy looking one. They still look rather odd but there is an audio reason for that so I can live with it. They sound great but are very expensive. https://vividaudio.com/loud-speakers/kaya/ I heard the Kaya 90 the same day I heard the Vandersteen Treo CT. BTW - The Magico A3 is going up in price to $12,300 |
The Treo were a little more mellow on the top end than the Vivid Kaya 90. I go into auditioning audio gear with the mindset of "one good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain". I am looking for an emotional experience. I am not really listening to speakers but music. I feel I had the most enjoyable time with the speakers in the following order: 1) Vivid Kaya 2) Paradigm Persona 5F 3) Magico A3 4) Vandersteen Treo CT The Yamaha NS5000 maybe more like the Vandersteen from what I have read. I have not heard that yet but am hoping too if and when it arrives to the USA this summer. All reviews are saying what a great musical experience it is to listen to that speaker. I used to own Revel Salon1 speakers for a long time. I spent a good chunk of money on them. However, I am finding that my KEF LS50’s give me a more enjoyable listening experience. The cost difference between the 2 speakers is massive but I just can connect better with the KEF’s. I really have no way to explain in words why. The KEF Blades have been my favorite speaker so far but that will not fit my office. The Paradigm Persona 3F will be reduced by 20% in Feb 2019 for a sale so I may consider saving money and buy that. Listening to Fela Kuti. This guy is a musical genius. I cannot believe it took me so long to discover this guy. |
@gosta In my posts on this tread I have been going back and forth stating I need to get a stand mount or floor stander. The reason being when I started setting up the LS50’s in my office the sound was fatiguing. So I was under the impression that l would be resigned to another small stand mount. However, as I have added acoustic treatments and done the other things mentioned I realize that I can get a small floor stander in this room. I have no doubt about that now. One thing I will get is a preamp with DSP as a safety net device to integrate the floor stander in the office. I have mentioned 3 DSP units that I am considering based on feature set and ease of DSP use. They are Lyngdorf 3400, Linn Selekt DSM, and the Anthem STR. I will be doing a DSP shootout soon at an audio deal who has a small conference room with glass panels. We will put the rather large Paradigm Persona 5F in there and fire away. That dealer is actually very interested in hearing the results themselves. I recently found out that the Linn unit will not have a "high quality" analog board (it does have an analog board), I also have a tuner and SACD player. So the Linn drops down a lot in consideration. I would have to jump up to the much more expensive Linn units to get the better analog board. So the Lyngdorf and the Anthem STR are the front runners now based on feature set. I would be throwing money away with the Lyngdorf because when I auditioned it I did not like the amp section but I did love the preamp section. We did not test DSP that day. The Anthem has the perfect feature set and if the sound is within range of the Lyngdorf then that would be a great choice. I also heard an all digital setup of the Linn + DSP in a big room and it sounded very good. The Audience 1+1 V3 is an amazing sounding speaker. It sounds better than the KEF LS50. So why sell that and keep the KEF’s? It was because the imaging was driving me crazy when I sat off-axis, the LS50 was better at this. Now after tuning my room with the treatments and other things, I think I maybe able to get the Audience imaging fixed but at that time I did not know how to fix it. The thing that is amazing about the Audience is the clarity you get in the sound. It is actually a bit like the Vivid speaker, maybe even better. You sometimes felt like you were in the studio with the musicians, especially with my Benchmark AHB2 amp. I wrote a bit more detail on the Audience to someone else that asked. I will see where that is and send you. |
I have not done my DSP shootout yet due to funds taking longer to magically appear. However, during this time I have been conversing with some folks who have owned the Lyngdorf and the Anthem. My conversation with the dealer on the Linn Selekt had put it at the bottom of the list due to the lack of "high quality" analog input support. They also have no intention of comping out with a better analog board, like Lyngdorf has done. The summery from all these discussions with A'gon users was that the Anthem STR preamp is likely going be my choice. The feature set of the Anthem is fantastic along with the 2 analog XLR inputs that can go direct without DSP processing (as an option). If the sound quality of the DSP is the same across the 3 units the Anthem is the easy choice. The Lyngdorf as a preamp is great and it has better support for the analog inputs (compared to the Linn) so I am going to give that unit a good listen. However, the amp section of the Lyngdorf is out in my consideration (kind of wasting money there if I get it). Now the choice of the speakers is also coming more into focus. 1) Paradigm Person 3F (can be had from $6300 - $10000). This is my first choice and an Anthem STR pre + amp + 3F is what a lot of folks have and they all love it. The smallish forward facing woofers on the 3F maybe better than side firing woofers. 2) The Vivid Kaya 45 is one I know i would like. I liked the Kaya 90 a lot. However, the side firing woofers maybe a bad choice in my small room. Anybody have an opinion on side firing woofers. I had some NHT 2.5 that had side firing woofers on them and they needed some space on the side (20 years ago). https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/865-vivid-audio-kaya-45-loudspeakers 3) The Yamaha NS5000, I have a feeling this is too big a speaker for the room, but this speaker is now STRONGLY rumored to be coming to the USA. At least I could have an easier time auditioning it. My understanding is the chemical is used in the exterior lacquer needs to pass California import rules. So they may change the lacquer used. Don't quote me on this, but this was the feedback I got from a few guys with knowledge on the Yamaha. So if anyone is interested in chiming in on the side firing woofer and a small room please do so. Remember the room is acoustically treated. |
It has been a while since I updated my quest for my office system. I have been busy with work and life but I have not ignored the advice posted here. One set of advice was to give a monitor speaker a second chance, specifically the TAD Me1. Well I did that in Los Angeles this week after I dropped my dad of at LAX so he could fly back to Toronto (YYZ). I also wanted to hear the Luxman gear that I was always thinking would be a good candidate for me. The posters here were correct, the TAD Me1 is a great monitor speaker, superb. It also has limited bass but enough bass I would think for my room. The demo was in a large space and the bass was not helped because the walls were not close, but in my room the bass will get reinforced by the room. However, the big deal is that I do not think I need DSP with the TAD Me1, unlike the other floor standers I am considering. I asked my dad to go to the store in Toronto that carries both the Persona 3F and Yamaha NS 5000 and give his opinion (maybe next week). I read the posts (on another site) of someone would had gone to this store and compared both and he was not enamored with the Yamaha, which is surprising relative to all the glowing reviews. One thing I did finalize during the recent demo was deciding on which amp to get. I have been mentioning since the beginning of this thread that the Luxman m900u could be the dark horse candidate. After finally hearing it with the Luxman c900u preamp and a Luxman CD/DAC the decision was easy. I am getting the m900u. I also heard the Luxman 509x integrated but the seperates were too good. I do like this reviewer and his review on the Luxman m900u is spot on. https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/838-luxman-m-900u-stereo-mono-amplifier My 3 speaker choices are: 1) Paradigm Persona 3F 2) TAD Me1 (TAD raised price from $10k to $15K again, ridiculous) 3) Yamaha NS 5000 (should be in USA this summer) Dropping the Vivid Kaya 45 speaker from consideration since I don't want to deal with side firing woofers. I have not figured out which preamp, other than the Luxman c900u, would work well. This could come down to cost and the number of boxes. If my lottery ticket stock investment comes through it will be the Luxman c900u and separate DAC. |
