I´ll keep you informed when I´ll be able to listen to the new Nagra PL-P linestage in October. I´ll then compare her to my fully modified AA Cap. II with the optional line stage module (bettered the K-1X, the SL-1 and the HP-100 easily).
In respect of the ASR stuff: it´s funny. In Germany no body really cares about their stuff (as it is with Burmester) as they do sound slow, dull and/or artificial. Clearaudio is regarded to be (and to my ears as well) the much better product. But there is a real german champion the Omtec Antares. Rarely seen on the used market but better than Clearaudio, Linn Linto etc.
Hey guys/girls, if you wish to help me make up my mind on my next linestage (VAC REN 2, VAC Phi, or ARC Ren 3), please visit me at: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1123254379&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona Thanks a bunch, Guido
Frankpiet, as you're in Germany, you might consider listening to the asr phono. It's better sounding (& more versatile) than the Clearaudio. Costs EUR: ~600.
Just as I noticed. The AA goes up a level w. the preamp modification. I know they do an additional mod in the US market. Curious if you can tell me what it is.
I still love my AA. I switched to the EMM & am getting my CDSD hopefully this week or new week. Then I will compare to my AA again. The EMM is better, but the AA is no slouch.
TVAD & Artg, how do you both get your posts going so often on the same day. Mine don't show up for a while normally. I have never been deleted though.
I agree that the AA has some negatives w. different volume settings but all in all it is very close. It depends on the impedance & voltage of the item it is seeing as a source. It also is just below the top of the latest bunch. I just wish I had a different CDP for different discs. Some sound better on the the EMM & others better on the Reimyo etc. This is after comparison. Very confusing & too expensive.
The Nagra sounds like an amazing preamp. Again everything is the system. How I am learning this every day. Just to add some spice. There is a new "statement" CAT preamp. Anyone heard it?
I just changed tubes in my 7.5. What a difference. Everything just became much more dynamic w. more extension at the extremes. Scary. Now to try some NOS tubes.
Hello Folks: thank´s for your very kind input so far. My quest is over! Today my Audio Aero dealer returned my cdp "a little bit modified" ;) Furthermore he installed the optional line-stage module. I must say: the mods take this already excellent sounding player to a totally new level and in conjunction with the line stage module I´ve now got a superb sounding pre as well. I´ve just added a Clearaudio Basic Symmetry phono MC pre and a new Clearaudio Stradivary MC cartridge - FANTASTIC !!! - into my system. I tell you: You will have to pay A LOT more money to surpass the performance of this system...
The VAC Renaissance Phi preamp is based upon the VAC Renaissance Signature Mk. II, not the other way around, the latter having been introduced a good three years prior to the Phi Series.
VAC build quality is widely known in the U.S. to be among the very best of the tube gear manufacturers -- bullet-proof. While I am sure there were good reasons for your conclusion, it is not inconsistent with what I know and the general reputation of VAC here in the States. The Renaissance Signature Mk. II, for example, is a 90+ lb. beast with input and output transformers, aluminum chassis, etc. It's sound may not be to everyone's liking, but talk to anyone who works on high-end hi-fi equipment -- the stuff is really built.
As for my own experience, I use VAC Renaissance 140/140 Mk. III tube monoblocks in my main system. In five years of regular use, they have always functionned perfectly (I didn't even have to replace an output tube until last month).
Hi All, You should consider the ARC REF3. I've had the CTC Blowtorch and have the EMM Labs Switchman, both extremely well-regarded SS pre's. I am delighted with the ARC. Excellent imaging, midrange, etc.Much less edgy than the Switchman, and sounds pretty close to the Blowtorch, although I think that it's less fatiguing.
Thanks Bhouser, I am sold on VAC Ren 2. All the grace of tubes without any of the tuby artifacts. Ren 2 seems also to be a differential balanced design, which for me is an advantage as I am planning to get an Esoteric X-01. Conversely, I just noticed on the NAGRA site that the NAGRA PL-l is a single ended design, and the PL-l's XLR connectors link to an 'unbalanced' circuit.
Artg: the only real contender is the new Brinkmann Marconi -but it´s unfortunately a line stage only. Audible superior to the Nagra/ Brinkmann is the Boulder 1010 - but at an out-of-range price-point - at least in Germany.
Next week I´ll be able to audition the Marconi for two days in my system together with a PL-L. As I´m now used to the CAT and PL-P sound I´m looking foreward to hear that comparison. At my dealer both units were on paar and superior to the CAT. Still can´t get hold of any Aesthetix Saturn stuff in Germany.
Frank - I know what you mean about the Nagra, but i think its simply more 'neutral', not imparting much bloom, so if your ear, system, power system, room etc, need a some warmth, the Nagra is not the one. I think the 6922's, power cord and line conditioning are key on that puppy....
I also understand ow much of our choices are serendipitous. I never ever, ever even thought about Nagra, but a local dealer insisted I audition his demo (read good price) ince i told him i mostly cared about transparency and neutrality, and the rest is history. Who knows, if there had been a local VAC dealer, i might be raving about its presence, decay and what not...
I'm sorry, I can't say that I have heard any of the Phi series, so I can't compare them for you.
I think alot of the 'Renaissance confusion' comes from the way VAC describes the different models on their website, and how they relate them to the other VAC series that existed at the time of the writing.
That's why I called Brent... he and Kevin have always told me that the Ren 1 and 2 do not differ significantly in sonic character. Brent reconfirmed today that still applies. There is, however, a volume control upgrade they developed recently for the Ren mk1 that apparently improves linearity and low-volume frequency response. I may send mine in for that upgrade if it's not too expensive.
Bottom-line on the Renaissance pre: - it is stable with any amp that has a 10k-200k ohm input impedance (which means basically ALL amps currently available, and that's a very conservative range according to KevinH) - it uses a transformer-coupled output (so there's no loss of dynamics with any known amp load, and reduced noise) - it puts out almost NO heat (there's not even vent holes needed in the chassis at all, so you can place it almost anywhere that a CD player can go!) - it uses a balanced, no-feedback design with true balanced inputs AND outputs - the remote control circuitry does not affect the sonic performance or interfere with the audio circuit - the build quality is exceptional IMHO (3/8" thick aluminum fascia, high-gloss black lacquer, liberal use of sound deadening material, 1/4" thick CNC-machined aluminum chassis) - VAC's customer service reputation is well-deserved, and is among the best in the biz
There are many superb preamps out there in the price range that this thread is concerned with. I am certainly not calling the VAC the "BEST" available, but it should definitely be considered as ONE of the best, and worthy of an audition.
Agoner´s - thanks for your comments so far. The remaining candidates on my list are Nagra PL-P and Aesthetix Janus. The latter one I haven´t heard todate but I´ll be able to do so next week. Since a few days I´ve a Nagra PL-P and a CAT SL-1 Ultimate MK II.3 (very latest version of the CAT) in my system. Both are very impressive units - both with a total different design philosophy - but both are used for A/B - comparisons at their factories (Aesthetix develops its gear with Ayre amps/cdp). Nagra is perfect except of its slight lean and dry sound. CAT is very musical but to mellow - I´ve just listened to a Boulder 1010 which perfectly suits all my needs - unfortunately to expensive. Regarding the VAC Rainessance II - I´ll give it another try with different cables although the importer finishes distribution as many units returned with problems (reliability issues). So I´ll might have a chance to get one very cheap.. A very good unit as well was the Lamm LL2 - but just in the dealers showroom. At my place it turned out to be a total underperformer - probably a mismatch to my components.. Regarding the AA - you can´t pass by the built in volume control. Next week the importer comes to my place to exchange the control board and the volume control with a heavily modified board/volume pot. Let´s see if the AA then really sings..
Bhouser, I thought the VAC Ren 1 was derived from the Ren Sig design, while the Ren 2 was derived from the Phi. If both VAC Ren 1 and 2 are derived from the Phi, I stand corrected. Have you had an opportunity to listen to the Phi at all? If so, what were your impressions/findings?
Grant - EXACTLY. Unforunately the analog output stage of the AA can not be bypassed completely (the way it can be on a Levinson 390S - I used to have one of these too), but when running a preamp, they (AA) advise its best to set the volume to "-7dB", and to my ear (as well as many others I corresponded with), it breaks down * SOME * once you get away from that setting.
The fact that the built-in preamp in the AA does not compare to several preamps retailing for $10K does not mean it's a failure, really - its a matter of degree. I guess it's not fair expect the built in preamp on that unit to compete with the very best stand alone preamps. FWIW, i also thought my Levinson 390S sounded best with a "high quality" (in my case a $8700 Ayre K-1x) preamp than direct.
I've never hraed it, but it sounds like the EMM preamp is very good, so it might sound better without a preamp - but see here - where some thought it did sound better with an excellent preamp.
For what it's worth, I own a VAC Renaissance Mark One, purchased directly from Kevin Hayes of VAC. Also, I just spoke with Brent @ VAC to reconfirm what Kevin told me at the time I bought mine.
There is NO - as in Zero - tangible sonic differences between the two versions of this model - only cosmetic and convenience features, such as the ability to activate the Cinema ByPass via the remote, a different volume control, a more simple front panel, a 12-v trigger and more indicator LED's. The sonic characteristics, audio circuitry & design itself are virtually identical.
However, if you are referring to the $13k, 2-chassis Renaissance SIGNATURE Mark 1 & 2 models, then yes, they are very different animals compared to the 'standard' Ren and to each other. In fact, the Sig 1 definitely has a limited range of amps that it will work well with, due to its extremely high output gain (something like 33db).
Kevin even advised that I NOT buy a Sig 1 since I intended to use it with the hi-gain Pass X-series amp that I had at the time - it would not mate well with it. The Sig 2 is indeed a pared-down Phi preamp that works with a far greater range of amps, due to the totally different & unique circuit design, but it was out of my price range.
As for build quality, maybe Frank saw a Standard Pre instead of a Ren?? They have very different construction, at least in the visible fit n' finish compared to the Ren models. I have some pics of my Ren (including the internals) that I would be happy to email if you question the construction, which I found to be FAR above average IMHO.
My Ren Mark I, which superceded a Placette Active Linestage, Pass X2.5 and a PSE HL-1 Hybrid Tube Linestage, has shown NO softness that I can identify. In fact, it proved to be MORE dynamic then even the solid-state Pass X2.5, while providing that 'tube magic' thing that makes it all worthwhile.
Having said all this, I agree that the Retail price of both the Ren and Ren Sig are way-high. But, at their current used prices, they are terrific value.
moreover, many have remarked that the Audio aero built in preamp pretty much stinks outside of -9db to -6dB (referring to its volume display when used as a preamp).
grant you may be correct, but also realize that the Audio Aero does have a built in anal;og outpput stage, which if you are using ity ve a stand alone preamp, it clearly inferior. basically it boils down to whether the built in preamp section of that particular CDp is comparable to allowing it to run at a 'fixed' volume and allowing a real outbpard preamp do the honor of preamping and volume controlling. So it's not really as simple as preamp vs no preamp....
Dgad - interesting comments. As I ONLY had an AA as a source (i.e., no vinyl, tape or tuner), i was not able to use the AA as a preamp only. I will add that the Nagra is AS TRANSPARENT as direct - and by that I mean ALL the informaition on the disk gets through, unblemished. If anything i seemed to hear MORE information with the Nagra in the chain than when it ran direct. AND AND AND, the information has better harmonic resolution, better paplability and better decay....
I would agree with you wholeheartedly that the Audio Note M5, First Sound, Callisto Signature, BAT 31SE, and CAT sig mk3 (I had ALL of these in my system, so im talking about actual experience) were LESS transparent than direct, though to varying degrees and with varying degrees of added warmth, palpability, depth, bass slam and so on.
See my system page - this is hunt for transparency and nneutrality are exactly what led me to buy the Nagra - compared to every other preamp i tried, it was easily the most transparent, yet still provided the body, depth (the 'tube thing' you refer to) to the music which was missing direct... I did not expect this to be the case, as I only audiotioned it on a whim, but I was floored.
Of course adding a Reimyo over the AA, and isoclean power gear helped this as well, but I heard the Nagra with the AA (before the Reimyo and isoclean stuff), and without a doubt, the same observations applied. the Nagra PL-l is without a doubty the most transparent preamp I have ever heard.
I am sure there are other that would be better, but for my priorities, so far, the Nagra is the CAT's meow - no pun intended.
Dgad - I fully understand what you have posted here and agree with your comments. As described above, my experiences parallel those of Tvad. And with vinyl as my primary source, driving my DAC into my amps is not really an option even if this was the "better" way to go. Indeed the final result comes down to a system, not an individual component.
The issue of "best" is always a personal thing. For one person, this could describe the ultimate extraction of information and clarity the source material has to offer. For others, it comes down to taking the listener to the performance with the portrayal of the characterizations described by Tvad.
How does inserting a tube line stage into a system so magically bring back the dimensionality of piano, sax, guitar, voice, etc.? I have no idea but I quit worrying as to the how and why. All I have to do is go upstairs and hit some piano keys to know that the audio system with the line stage far more accurately renders the characteristics of the piano than when the line stage is removed.
If the manufactured LP or CD has lost some of the dimensionality and decays of the music, and a tubed line stage, phono stage or amp helps to bring this back, with a minimal amount of lost resolution and "transparency", then for me, it is well worth the end result.
As Artg, Jadem6 and I have discussed many times, with our comparative listening sessions of many different preamps, amps, CDP's, etc., it takes a lot of effort to achieve a system balance of resolution, dynamics and dimensionality. When it comes to line stages, so far the Aesthetix Callisto Signature does this like no other I have heard. Now with Art's excitement of the Nagra, I will be eager to hear this as well.
Frankpiet: Based on the descriptions you made of the Nagra and CAT, it indeed sounds like the Janus fits right in the middle. My comment is based on my experience with the Calypso. You can only know for sure if you hear it for yourself. The Calypso build quality is quite impressive. So the Janus should be the same. These do not have the industrial look of the Callisto and Io. But these latter pieces are special in their own ways. And concerning the build quality of the CAT SL-1, I never found this to be an issue. So I am puzzled with your findings here.
TVAD, that is exactly what I experienced when auditioning the AA Capitol II at a dealer by itself, then through a Foundation Research V6 linestage. Slightly more detailed directly into the amp, but also slightly leaner sound than through the Foundation research. The Foundation Research added just a slight amount of richness, bloom and impact to the sound that made it more listenable. Which instantiation was closer to the original venue? Truly impossible to say. We could argue that the Foundation Research was removing details coming right out of the instrument and adding artifacts of its own, or that the Foundation Research was reproducing more faithfully the sound as already modified by the acoustic, damping, etc. . . of the venue. Who really knows?
FrankPiet, I am curious about which VAC you have listened to. E.g. the original Renaissance--which I have not personally heard--is apparently somewhat soft, but current Renaissance II is not at all soft and is in fact dead quiet. The Ren II is not even based on the original Ren but is a cost-reengineered version of the Phi preamp. I'd be further interested in hearing more about your observations about VAC build quality. Thanks, Guido
Artg / Jafox: I´ve auditionned last night Nagra PL-P vs. CAT SL-1 Ultimate MK II. Here are my findings: Nagra beats the CAT hands down is respect of: neutrality, imaging, focus, speed, articulation and depth of soundstage as well as air around instruments - WOW. Furthermore the Nagra is more quiet than the CAT. The onboard phono-stage is at least together with my Benz LP in a class of its own (clearly bettered the borrowed Clearaudio Basic Symmetry as well as the borrowed Pass X-Ono).. The built quality is far better than CAT which is a little poor. The CAT has got more slam, dynamics and inner detail and a better musical flow. CAT likes my Electraglide power cords, Nagra doesn´t (to bright, dry and lean). I don´t know were to put the AESTHETIX Janus ?? Is it in the middle ? What about the buildquality, flexibility and reliability of the Janus ?? Does it match well with Ayre power amp and Audio Aero pre ?? I´ve listened to the VAC and was not very convinced - poor built quality, audible noisefloor and rediciously expensive in Germany. CAT and Nagra were def. better.
I am sure it did sound better. The AA sounds better via my VTL than direct. More of the tube thing going on. But the EMM sounds better via the AA as a preamp than via a Placette. Again some of the tube thing. Where I am going is try the AA as a preamp & compare it to any of your mentioned preamps. I doubt it will be as good as the Calypso but I bet it will compare. Don't use the AA as the source, use a different source into the AA & that same source into the Calypso.
I know it sounds crazy but it is all about the entire system. Unfortunately the AA direct will be more transparent no matter what you say. You have one more item in the chain. Depending on what preamp will determine how much more transparent. Now the preamp you use will add dimension, tube like sound, decay or how about some color. I bet a beautiful color too. I personally prefer the AA via my VTL than direct. But it still is less transparent (but really very very slightly & who knows how much is the cables, power cord, preamp, my ears etc). Also the VTL does not add body alone but also adds tremendous power, dynamics, decay etc. But this is all extra & wasn't there before. With the AA it helps a little. With my EMM it helps a lot & brings the EMM to another level as compared to my EMM via the Placette Active (probably the best preamp I have heard till the VTL). The Placette better my CAT MkIII by a very wide margin where a blind listening session would result in 100% certainty what you were listening to.
Do use the AA as a preamp for a different sournce and then comment(if you have that feature, as it improves the sound of the AA as a CD player substantially once the preamp upgrade is installed). I am trying to save you money or at least give you a comparative reference.
I purchased the VTL preamp as it is synergistic w. my amps & made a tremendous improvement as such. Take out the balanced connection of the VTL preamp & then the playing ground is much more close.
Hey John - once my CDP and power conditioner break in, i would like to have you over to hear the little Nagra PL-L. (I seem to have a thing for small electronics with big sound).
BTW, I wholly agree with John, the system sounded much better WITH a high quality preamp that direct from the AA to the Berning (it was my system he was referring to).
This has been an interesting thread with lots of expected recommendations. Now that the focus has shifted to also include tube units, it makes the quest a lot more fun.
Dgad's comment, "If you are happy w. the Audio Aero direct, I am sure a preamp won't make it better, just different", is unfortunately not quite the case. A local (Minneapolis) audiophile has the AA CDP. When we inserted my Aestheix Callisto Signature line stage in his system, there was such a huge improvement to the dimension, decays and realism to the presentation. I never would have believed this had I not heard it. You had to listen with great focus to hear the very minimal loss of resolution brought on by the Callisto. Removing the Callisto made it immediately clear the dimenisonality was gone. We also tried my previous BAT 31SE which clearly had more signal loss than the Callisto but again, it too brought on similar qualities as did the Callisto that the system with no line stage simply was lacking. It's not only about dynamics.
Hopefully you will get a chance to hear the Janus which is much the Calypso and Rhea units in one product. If you want to get an idea of the Calypso's musicality, read Jadem6's review of this. A few weeks after he wrote this, we compared his Calypso and my Callisto Sig in both our systems. He wrote a review on this shortly thereafter. He does a phenomenol job to describe these units. Both units have a nearly identical tonality but the Callisto brings on an ability to control the bass that neither of us have heard another tube line stage too. And the Callisto is miles ahead in its terms of portraying instrument and stage size, decays of the notes and the microdynamics most likely brought on by the size of all this. Once you hear this, it is tough if not impossible to go back to the Calypso or anything you heard before it. The ML, Spectral, Ayre, e.g., will not even come close to the Callisto in this regard.
I realize you want a full-function unit with built-in phono stage, but perhaps the option of separate line and phono stages would be worth some investigation.
If $10k is in your range, I would still seriously keep my eyes out for a VAC unit. The Renaissance often goes for much less and this has gotten praise from all over. And one last unit to consider is the upcoming full function preamp by Michael Elliot....the Aria WV preamp. Check it out on www.ariaaudio.com. If you remember all the praise of the Counterpoint SA9 & SA11 of 15 years ago, imagine what a modern all-out-assault by the designer of those units might be.
FrankPiet, the Boulder 1010 and 1012 throw indeed an extremely stable and large sound stage and instrument images. While they are expensive when purchased new, Boulder seems to warrant its products almost indefinitely even when purchased 2nd hand, and their price on the used market is more reasonable, typically under 10K.
Dgad, I´m looking for a pre-amp with onboard phono option as I use a vinyl set-up. But probably I´ll go for the AA with the optional line stage and add a phono pre of the likes of a Clearaudio Basic-Symmetry. The one thing I don´t like with the AA is that it lacks stability and focus. Don´t know if it gets better with the optional line-stage module ?? Thats the only reason why I´m considering a pre-amp inbetween. I´ve had great results with a Boulder 1010 and a Brinkmann Marconi - but the first one is to expensive and the second one lacks the onboard phono option..
Upgrade the AA. Save the money. It gives it a "new lease on life". Almost the entire internals, besides the transport are replaced. If you are happy w. the Audio Aero direct, I am sure a preamp won't make it better, just different. If you are concerned with phono then you have an entirely different situation. Then get a great phono like a groove plus or ASR Basis. Just an idea.
I am confused about your amplifier. It is all about synergy with your amplifiers.
yes you´re right. But actually my budget for the unit is US $ 8.000,00. The rest is for cables and tweaks. Taking this into account my preference is Nagra although I´m keen to listen to Aesthetix Janus and Cat SL-1 Ultimate.
Dgad, thanks. Your comments are very helpful. So on my list remains a comparison: AA with board vs. AA without - all going directly into my power amp. AA with board vs. CAT SL-1 Ultimate; SL-1 Ultimate vs. Nagra (I believe very hard to beat) and both against Aesthetix Janus.
I did some comparing pretty quickly. All very confusing. Here it goes & this is firm
EMM Labs going through Placette is not as good as Audio Aero going through Placette.
EMM Labs going through Audio Aero is better than Audio Aero (who cares, this is about preamps but it is all in the chain).
EMM Labs going through VTL is much better than Audio Aero going through VTL.
Now for the big answer. The Audio Aero does sound better direct than going through the VTL 7.5. Very slightly but noticeable. It was more transparent would be the best way to characterize the sound. The VTL was using an Elrod power cord & the Audio Aero was not. Long story short, more in the chain the less the transparency but tubes can have a major benefit in many environments. I am guessing the extra interconnects definitely hurt and that the Audio Aero gain might have been too high for the VTL which could affect the sound. I had the Audio Aero fully open.
If you want a preamp w. out phono on the cheap & are dedicated to the Audio Aero I strongly recommend the upgrade. Then purchase a lot of music. It is really that good a preamp. Is it on par w. the VTL. Not really, but it is very close. It isn't completely user friendly and takes up no space. All major improvements. The tubes are on all the time anyhow so you might as well enjoy it. The VTL is better than the Placette in some ways, and equal in other. Maybe a little soft in the bass compared to the Placette. But the Audio Aero direct was not soft in the bass. All so close that it isn't worth thousands of dollars.
Good luck. I will be doing a little more comparing right now as I am curious about the EMM through the VTL as compared to running it through the Audio Aero.
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