Wester17, I purchased the Benchmark DAC2 HGC because I wasn't sure if future plans would have it feeding an integrated (current), a preamp, or a power amp, and the HGC could be configured for either. I had that audiophile yen for an exotic large box linestage, but could never quite understand what all that money was doing other than creating some preferred flavor, which is fine if it's preferred. I think i always worried the direct-to-amp would be too raw and "un-prepped." But this discussion thread has given me the confidence to go balanced from the very clean Benchmark HGC, directly to the tube amp I want, knowing I can get a good impedance match. Yes, the HGC has powered gain control, but I think that's all the "pre" I need. I'm not contributing much, but showing gratitude for others.
Best Preamp - NO preamp... (?)
A few hours ago I decided to experiment and bypassed my highly regarded, excellent passive preamp and hooked up my PS Audio DSD DAC directly to the power amp.
There is no going back...
Every aspect of the sound has improved so dramatically that I'm simply blown away. I'm a bit shocked, playing CD after CD and I still can't believe it.
My phono stage has gain control as well, so it seems that from now on it will be disconnecting RCAs and plugging each in turn.
Since I usually do vinyl day or cd day (or week) anyway, the trouble seems totally worth it. Letting the cable settle in for a bit is not an issue.
Am I just crazy or are any of you doing the same?
Should I be concerned about damaging the RCAs over time?
Thanks for your thoughts and experience. :-)
There is no going back...
Every aspect of the sound has improved so dramatically that I'm simply blown away. I'm a bit shocked, playing CD after CD and I still can't believe it.
My phono stage has gain control as well, so it seems that from now on it will be disconnecting RCAs and plugging each in turn.
Since I usually do vinyl day or cd day (or week) anyway, the trouble seems totally worth it. Letting the cable settle in for a bit is not an issue.
Am I just crazy or are any of you doing the same?
Should I be concerned about damaging the RCAs over time?
Thanks for your thoughts and experience. :-)
78 responses Add your response
I think i always worried the direct-to-amp would be too raw and "un-prepped."Sorry electroslacker forgive me. Raw?? Unprepped?? This is something the voodoo'ist have instilled into you. The source, is the start in a system and it's signal should go via the purest path to the speakers, anything in-between that changes it, is not pure and just adding distortion and or colourations. As for your impedance match, you couldn't ask for anything better, low impedance solid state output of the Benchmark, into the high input impedance of a tube amp, as perfect as an impedance match gets. Cheers George |
Yes... the AR Ref preamps look like they're among the very best available. I've got the Ref 3 and Ref 5se... and... they are incredible - though, as I noted above, I am surprised at how good the Creek Passive Preamp sounds in comparison for a pittance in price. I did note in Collums ratings of preamps in HIFI Critic that he rated the AR Ref 5se at 225, compared to the highest rated Townshend Allegri at 230 (an autotransformer passive preamp). Presumably, the AR Ref 6 and Ref 40, would be somewhat better - as most who have had both the 5se and either of the others report - though, at significant price premiums to the 5se, and of course, to the Allegri. At $2300 the Allegri looks like a "real bargain"... if... you can live without the conveniences of switching, balanced connections, and the remote. Though, those conveniences come at very hefty premiums. And... I guess you could consider the AR Ref 3 as almost as grand a bargain at it's current price in the used market. Most who have had both the Ref 3 and Ref 5 - 40 report that the Ref 3 is by far the "sweet spot" of the AR line. So... perhaps... the price premium for those conveniences and great sound of the AR units is only about 2x the price of the Allegri. Though you still have the cost of maintaining the AR tubed preamps - which the Allegri avoids. |
I'm currently auditioning the new Benchmark HPA4 preamp/linestage/headphone amp and my DAC2 HGC against a Dangerous Audio Convert 2 Pro DAC. I'm very sad to say the HPA4 Preamp does rob me of some upper frequency sparkle and transient response. I've run through putting the hpa4 in and taking it out several times and running each DAC direct to either my Nord Monoblocks or my Art Audio Diavolo SET Tube 300b Amplifier to my Tekton Design Encores speakers and regardless of the DAC or amps I'm using I can hear clearly a noticeable drop in resolution, upper midrange clarity, and transient response. Plucks of guitars seem a little lifeless now. The overall sound is more homogeneous sounding and more 2 dimensional sounding. It's a warmer less neutral sound, but almost like a film coating painted on everything I hear. This is really disappointing because this preamp was supposed to take my system to the next level, but unfortunately it's a step backwards for me. I'm returning it to Benchmark, but I really feel bad about it all the same. As an aside I love the Benchmark DAC2 HGC, and will be upgrading to the DAC3 HGC. For what its worth the Dangerous convert 2 dac I was auditioning sounded well nigh identical to the Benchmark once the gain level was matched, but it lacks the remote, multiple outputs, and because I'm returning the preamp won't work in my system. It's definitely a competent piece and those level meters provide some sexy eye candy that I will miss over the boring utilitarian looks of the Benchmark DAC2 HGC. |
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I almost always have two preamps in the signal chain https://youtu.be/RmyucZa6wD0?t=4 |
My new preamp has has improved the sound of my amp by leaps and bounds. No question that using a preamp in this case is an improvement. https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/#home |
lancelock Fair enough, your new pre sounds better than your old preamp, goes to prove no two pre’s sound the same, just like none can sound like the fabled "strait piece of wire" But direct source to power amp is, and will sound like a "strait piece of wire", because guess what? that’s what it is!! If you don’t like it that way, many don’t, it’s because you DON"T like the sound of your source!!. Better change it and save $4,450, instead of putting a band-aids on it with different sounding preamps. Put the $4.5k towards a better front end source with built in volume control ability, then revel in the dynamic transparency direct source to poweramp can give you, once you’ve heard it this way with a source you like, there’s no going back to an active preamp. And that’s why we have this thread called, " Best Preamp - NO preamp... (?) " Remember your hifi system all starts with the source. "To quote a famous saying. It all starts with the source, get that right and your 1/3rd the way there, if not, it's a never ending battle to get the truth." Cheers George |
@georgehifi +1 Since I opened this thread almost 2 years ago, I have had the chance to audition a few other preamps in the loop, just to amuse my audiophile friends who insisted 'But you haven't heard XYZ preamp yet... it will take your system to another league...' These included the PS Audio BHK signature preamp, and top-of-the-line ARC and CJ, among a few less known brands, mostly >$10K units, all with rave reviews by leading magazines, and in this forum... The $6K PS Audio BHK signature was the only one that came close to having no preamp at all, but still a clear second best. All but 2 (one who uses only an analog source, and one who will never admit to be wrong) of these skeptics, that brought their 'holy grail' preamps for audition, ended up selling them shortly thereafter, and getting the PS Audio DSD DAC with Bridge II, and the DMP transport as a digital source... ;-) |
Yes ami thousands spent on these, and owners are very afraid they are going the way of the dodo bird. Like a someone else you guys have over there. https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.205675140.2343/flat,1000x1000,075,f.u1.jpg Funny you mentioned PS Audio BHK signature preamp. Paul McGowan was in the staunch anti active preamp brigade, and all for going direct. That was right up until he released info that he was bringing out the, PS Audio BHK signature preamp, don’t suppose sales and the mighty $$$$ had anything to do with his massive turnaround???? Cheers George |
Yep @georgehifi ... No one knows, but I doubt it, as Paul McGowan is one of the rare, brutally honest, no BS guys I've had the pleasure of knowing in this business. He was not ashamed to admit in the PS Audio forums, that a $10 Chinese made Amazon HDMI cable bettered his $400 PS Audio silver I2S cable. I bought that cable, and he was right... I'm still using it today. And we need to remember that their setup is not the same as mine. They tested the BHK preamp driving their solid state BHK power amps. I use a flea-power Yamamoto A08S SET tube amplifier, which might happen to be a better match for the direct output of the DSD DAC than a solid state amp. It could also be that my speakers, a set of $6K Zu Audio Druids Mk V, don't reveal what the $50K Infinity IRS-V do (or the other way around?). And yet... it might be the $$$, or just him giving ultimate respect for Mr. Bascom H. King. :-) |
The $6K PS Audio BHK signature was the only one that came close to having no preamp at all, but still a clear second best. Still in your own words, with the same source it came a clear second to going direct. With that $6k saving, you could throw that at the source, imagine what you’d have then ??? Cheers George |
Need some help here. Have a Cary Cinema 11A that I run sound to my TV with and I am adding a Quad Artera Play + that has a great preamp and CD player. This is very important to me as sound is #1. The Artera will be arriving soon. If I run the Artera into the Cinema 11 A which acts as an AV, will that render the preamp and DAC in the Artera pointless? Will I still be getting the full effects of the DAC and preamp? Thanks |
I was running a Benchmark DAC3 HGC directly into 2 AVM M30 Monoblocks. Very Cost efficient as the Benchmark has the Preamp onboard. By recommendation of Benchmark I was considering to ass their HPA4. I ended up adding the Hegel P-20 instead for aesthetic reasons. All I can say that it improved the SQ massively. Much bigger, much deeper, more refined. Basically the preamp section of the Benchmark 3 is replaced which the much more substantial Hegel preamp and the Benchmark DAC running in DAC mode improves performance aswell. In my case the adding of an additional component has made a significant change in the overall system, in the desired direction. |
As you said you were comparing two preamps, you found one better than the other, as you said the Benchmark has it’s own internal preamp. What’s discussed here, is going direct from a dac’s "output buffer" (that has no internal preamp), direct to the amp/s using the dac own digital domain volume control, andtherefore having no preamps at all in the signal path. Basically the preamp section of the Benchmark 3 is replaced which the much more substantial Hegel preamp and the Benchmark DAC running in DAC mode improves performance aswell.Maybe, a passive should have been tried running in DAC mode Cheers George |
I would've completely agreed just a few months ago. Direct Stream Sr to the Pass XA60.5 sounded glorious. On a whim, I bought a Pass X0.2 preamp (figured that I could always resell it if I didn't make enough of a difference). Oh was I wrong! The X0.2 might be an older Pass, but it added space and drive to the music that I just didn't have with the DSD Sr. I guess no preamp is better, unless the preamp is really good! :-) |
I have tried direct to amp with PS Audio direct stream memory transport and PS Audio DAC to various amps and was underwhelmed by the results in all situations. The volume control in the PS Audio added to much grain, especially at lower volumes. Most transports offer enough power for passive/direct wiring to amps these days, but the grain from volume attenuation becomes troublesome. My pre (Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse) lacks feedback and is dual balanced (dual volume knobs). Add in tube rolling to tame an overly warm mono block configuration or to add liveliness to a sterile SS amp configuration, it gives me the ability to fine tune whatever configuration I find myself in, and achieve deep bass withVon Schweikert’s (21 hertz) speakers. I also went down the rabbit hole this year and purchased/experimented with a passive pre (Tortuga) that I had professionally built (I was obsessive with getting things just right in even trying different solders at different places to achieve the most neutral presentation). I added a tube buffer in the chain and loved the result, but in the end found that set up wonderful for near field application only. I craved more cowbell during lively rock/country passages. When I used 1940s NOS tubes and was amazed by the delicate warmth that was offered. (FYI: I will be reluctantly listing the Tortuga shortly if anyone is interested). For our moderator, may I suggest an RCA selector between source and amp, you are not going to be happy with all the wear and tear on RCA connectors down the road. I had one made for my Tortuga that did the trick, but don’t buy a mass marketed selector, have one made to your needs that is robust enough to handle the amount of switching needed. There are several interconnect builders that should be qualified on AudiogoN. I use my RCA selector between stereo and mono TT in my analog chain. Happy holidays all, and enjoy the music! |
I guess no preamp is better, unless the preamp is really good! :-) That has been my experience as well. For a short while I tried my Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 direct into my Pass Labs amplifier (with Magico speakers) and found the sound was super detailed, clean, and dynamic. I was very impressed. I then tried a SimAudio 740P preamp in my system and much preferred the overall sound with the preamp present. I likely lost a tad bit of detail with dynamics and timbre being similar, but the BIG difference was in the explosion of soundstage and space between the instruments and vocals. The added front to back depth and 3d like imaging made me have no desire to save the not insignificant price of the preamp and go back to using the DAC direct. Using the DAC direct was like a 2d super detailed presentation, where the 740P made it sound 3d and more like the artists were physically playing in my listening room (albeit maybe not in a recording studio...). I've heard very big differences while trying various preamps over the years and have no doubt I would prefer the sound of a great DAC like the Berkeley direct in many of these cases; but I'm also unfortunately sold on the value of a great preamp in making one's system sound its best, even when you have a single digital source like me. |
@mountz I have tried direct to amp with PS Audio direct stream memory transport and PS Audio DAC to various amps and was underwhelmed by the results in all situations.That has been my experience too, and that includes using a variety of passives including autoformer passives. My final effort was DAC direct from Metrum’s Adagio DAC, which uses an elegant volume control solution by changing the reference voltage of the DAC, so no lost bits ever. My solution was to use a very high quality solid state unity-gain buffer, which added back all the tonal color, dimension, and solidity that was missing when I was going directly from the DAC to my amps. |
My current thoughts on this are to start with a very neutral amp that you like, class A, class D, personally I like the new purifi class D's and generally all of the new class D's but I wouldn't worry about that, it's your hobby( my suggestion), just make sure it is very, very clean and neutral and has a decent Signal to Noise ratio like the MSB, Benchmark, CH Precision products etc. Then, remove the pre-amp at all costs and buy a better dac with all the money that you save and run direct!! I can't state this loudly enough, get that pre amp out of the picture. Then use the digital filters that are available too you to create whatever sound you want, analytical, soft, warm, tubey, crisp, fast, slow, whatever, heck you change the filters once a week, every other song, whatever you feel like and you can actually create the sound you want instead of relying on a pre amp designer to give you a sound that you get stuck with based on his ideas on negative feed back and how that creates soundstage/ or lack of, what tubes are perfect etc. etc. When you hear it, you will know, otherwise you'll never get off the merry go round, spend your money on a better amp/dac, ditch the pre and you will be happier in the end, I surely am. Of course none of this rant is relevant if you still spin those black things Don |
Of course none of this rant is relevant if you still spin those black thingsGoes for vinyl too Don. You can still ditch the active preamp if the phono stage has and enough gain for you >(50db), and then use a good passive preamp. Many of my customers do this, they say it’s the best they’ve heard their vinyl sound. Cheers George |