I think, the result will be different from phono stage to phono stage, but when I went down from 47k to lower values, the sound becomes more and more dull and the high frequeny information is going to be lost.
To the History from that, I think most cartridges were made for 47k, but not enough phono stages can handle that ( they offer an agressive sound ), most customers asked their dealer when they read the datas of the cartridge about the ability of their phonostage and didn't buy the cartridge. No deal.
Now we have specs : > 10 ohms and everyone is happy |
I went home to experiment with the loading on my Helikon which I had been using at 47K. My phono is currently set up for 100, 200, 1K, and 47K.
The 25 x output impedance suggests 137.5 ohms.
I tried 200 and there was a little more bass but the sound was uninvolving, no punch or energy. I tried 1K and that brought back the energy quite a bit. However, at that setting, it seemed that some records sounded great and others didn't. The ones that didn't had an almost "out of phase" kind of sound. The music didn't project out into the listening room the way I thought it should. |
I too was at 47K, in conjunction with a BAT P10. But when I upgraded to more resolving speakers I found 47K too tizzy. 100R has a smoother, more delicate treble. It was easier for me to evaluate differences in loading as the overall quality of my system improved.
Dave |
Thomasheisig,
A previous thread in the analog list discussed the correct loading for a Helikon and the general consensus was a rule of thumb loading of 25 times the output impedance of the cartridge. In the case of the Helikon that would be 137.5 ohms ballpark.
I am also loading my Helikon at 47K. I think I must have gotten this value from the literature that came with the cartridge. Looking on the Lyra website, the Helikon is spec'd to a range of 100 ohms to 47K ohms. I haven't tried any other loadings with my Helikon and am anxious to get home and experiment a little.
How did you arrive at 47K? |
Dear Nilthepill: +++++ " Are you saying that I should be getting solid state phono and that budget may not be enough?? " +++++
Yes, at least for do justice to your analog rig.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul,
The Classe pre-amp I have is CP-45 that works great for my CD source. It has phono board, but I have found a not a great one. The Phono I have for upstairs small system is Jadis DPMC and it is dream in that system (Jadis Orchestra Ref,Dunlavy IV, JD3 cd player). I should pobably try out the DPMC in my main system when I get the La Luce to check How tubed phono inteacts with solid state. I am so happy with DPMC that that is wants me think tubed phono for downstairs system.
I don't quite get what you are trying say in the last 4 paras. Are you saying that I should be getting solid state phono and that budget may not be enough?? Thanks. |
Nilthepill: First I would like to know the model of your Classe preamp.
Second, I can´t understand why you already put a 2-4K budget for your phonopreamp that you want to match to your analog rig that it is in the 15-18K when the phonopreamp is the most important/critical link on the analog chain.
For you can really know why you already invested those 15-18K on your analog rig you have to have a really good phono/line preamp ( integrated if you find it ) and in my opinion you can't really do it between that budget range.
Now, I think that your today analog rig is a very good one and if you have it is because you really care about the quality music sound reproduction, right?. That's why you need that " non budget " phono-line preamp.
Of course, you can buy what you decide in your budget. No problem it is only an opinion.
+++++ " I am looking for realistic lively sound on neutral side. " +++++
Your priorities preclude the use of tube electronics, I think that you can be right on target with SS electronics.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
There is a used Herron Audio VTPH-1MC on Agon for $2,099. I have had a VTPH-1MC since 1999 and have been very happy with mine. Just had it upgraded at the factory to the latest revision.
The Herron is FET/Tube hybrid so you get the best of solid state and tubes - neutral, realistic - with 66dB of gain. |
I'm using the Helikon and a standard BAT VKP10, with cartridge loaded at 100R. Sounds great and the BAT can be acquired inexpensively in the used market.
Dave |
Go for an adjustaqble one, proboably a Klyne. The Lyra Systems were made for 47kohms but they run in a wide range.
Don't know about a "best" Phono Stage, but there is much worse out there.
Cool Arm, very rare. I knew a user who used such one with Klyne and various cartridges. |
If you are still in the "almost procured" stage and haven't purchased anything yet, I'd maybe consider teh phoinostage first. Then, consider the table/arm. Then, the cartridge. Just a friendly suggestion. |
I have Lyra helikon with Tom Evans the groove, that was the first time i realize the potential of the rest of the sistem, is very good, not flexible, not on the beutiful side, it is a very special phono, it,s all about the truth.
Good luck! |
Thanks John and Dan, As my cartridge and TT selection indicate, I am looking for realistic lively sound on neutral side. Yes my Classe pre and amp are balanced. I do have a phon board in my pre that I can use for a while. But I think a dedictaed phono pre is a must for great sound. My budget id desired around $2000, but if I can get a really good one for more I could stretch to ah may be double that. The key is I want to make a good match rather than just buy the most expensive one. |
If you're contemplating a Manley I wouldn't keep thinking about the EAR. Although good for the money, the EAR is no where near the same league as Manley or the P10SE that John mentioned. I'm not familiar with the other two you mentioned. It would help to know your budget. |
My Helikon works great with a BAT VKP10SE. Don't know your price range or exactly what type of sound your after. Assuming your classe amps and pre are balanced...this may yield a small improvment in performance. |
