I too have had the liquid air cables from AM in my system. Yes, they are exceptional in some ways, especially bass and PRAT. They are also smooth. However there was a tonal flaw which I just could not get over. The tones had a whitish hue to it instead of the regular coppery-golden hue which we normally hear from real instruments. This coloration was present all throughout the midrange to the highs. For example saxophone sounded like a white metal rather than sounding brassy. Same with Cymbals which sounded clean, smooth, shimmering but WHITE.
This was my observation after some prolonged audition of over a month, may not be apparent initially. |
is it possible that the cable might be revealing some flaw in your system that other cables are covering up ? Hello Mrtennis, I agree that such a thing can never be totally discarded however good a system might be but the probability of such a thing AFAIK with my system is very low AND I took around this cable to couple of other Audiophile's places who all have very well chosen gears. The result was similar. And again I would like to emphasize that the issue is not something very apparent in the initial listening sessions, it occurs to one (if at all) only after one lives with it for some time. Obviously once you know what is happening it becomes easier to "listen" to those flaws in other systems as well. Let me go a step back. Many a times when we come across a "new" sound (due to a cable or an equipment change), we try to analyze it by breaking it into parts (bass, mid, treble, soundstage etc) because it makes it easier to analyze just one area at a time (Divide and conquer). Then, if some of the important areas sounds really amazing our respect for that component (in this case the cable) increases. Many a times, out of that respect we tend to give undue weightage to even the areas which "may" be sounding different but not amazing. Those are the areas which are the most difficult to understand in such scenarios. One is already clouded by the aura of the cable and now he has to say "No" to some of its aspects....possible if those aspects are really bothering else things take totally different turn, we rather try to believe that some of the not-so-amazing but new aspects is possibly the "right" sound and we need to get accustomed to it or some other favorable reason to accept what we are hearing. Many a times I have seen audiophiles are recommended to "Unlearn" to be able to appreciate the performance of a new component in the chain. And sometimes Audiophiles voluntarily try to unlearn because they "want" to appreciate a particular aspect of a component, may be it is the aura that component has created by the virtue of its performance in some other aspect or due to the image it carries or whatever. My point is relatively simple. When "Realism" strikes, it strikes hard and it is instantly recognizable by our ears. If a cable sounds more real (due to lack of ringing or any such reason) it should not take a lot of time to judge it. If it is taking some time then we should be clearly aware that something about it is not correct which our ears have caught. One does not have to unlearn anything to appreciate realism. For me Audio Magic cables did not sound real enough though I had to take some time to understand the "Why" of it. |
there is another issue. if the cables were described as smooth and whitish. those two words contradict each other. whitish implies a grain structure.
perhaps pani meant to use another word, but it would have to be consonant with smooth, in order to be consistent.
what say you pani ?? Hello mrtennis, When I said smooth I meant it never sounded hard or harsh. Edges were too etched or sharp. The whitish thing I was referring to was about the timbral-glow of the instrument. I would say it was not very severe like some of the silver cables but it was there. Audioman58, my associated equipments were as follows, Transport : TEAC VRDS 10 DAC : Reimyo DAP777 Preamp : Acoustic Portrait PM1 Tube preamp Power amp : Symphonic Line RG1 MK4 Speaker : ATC SCM40 Speaker cable was by Einstein Audio Germany (all copper). Power cords were again all pure copper designs by Oyaide. |
Hi Dmailer, nice to hear that you really found a great cable for your system.
I am still waiting for that to happen. I heard the Illusion Liquid Air.
I could give a Clairvoyant another shot but it is not available where I live (India). If I get one I would love to try it. |
Audioman58, I am not trying to shy away from any issues that may be there with my system but would like to correct you on some of the data you have provided:
1. ATC SCM40 has a nominal impedance of 8 ohms and it has a very flat impedance curve. It never dips below 6 ohms during actual performance.
2. The cross over point for the midrange to tweeter is 3.5khz and not 2.5khz. I hope you know it is a 3 way speaker.
3. Symphonic line amplifiers are extremely conservative in their ratings. They put out loads of current. My amp is a full dual mono design with a current capability of 60 amps per channel and stable to 1 ohm. It is class A/B but is biased high in class A mode. It is possible that you may not have come across this German amp because they are not popular in US.
Coming back to AM cables, as I said I took it around to couple of other audiophile's places and came out with the same conclusion. No, none of us had AM speaker cables, we were only trying the interconnect. We also got to try the liquid air digital IC. Very similar signature. If you really think one needs to have the Liquid air speaker cables as well in order to like the interconnects wholeheartedly, well I am not sure if that should be a criteria but we didnt fulfill this criteria for sure.
BTW, I have also heard the earlier Sorcerer 4D interconnects in my system and thought they did everything amazing except the midrange tonality which was drier to my ears. The liquid air is definitely better than the 4D but still that midrange is the weaker zone IMO. Somehow I think it is Jerry's signature sound to keep everything clean, transparent, smooth, fast and uptight but something not very accurate about midrange (he may not be concentrating as much towards that zone). It is pkay because every designer has a sound in his mind which he works towards and it may some detractors as well (like me), not a big deal I suppose. |
Vacuumtubeman, as an audiophile I always feel happy if a fellow audiophile has found a great product for his system which gives him higher levels of musical enjoyment. I see that you are excited with the improvement you got from AM liquid air cables. You are not the only one, I know few others who are big fans of AM cables, both liquid air as well as the earlier silver cables. I suppose you guys are really lucky because the AM cables are outstanding in many areas of music reproduction and I dont think it is easy to match them in those areas. The fact that you guys do not hear any issues with this cable in your system is boon I would say. These cables are priced very well. |
Hi Jerry,
I have a lot of respect for what you do. I have heard many of your products, not just your cables. I can see real innovation behind your products which not many designers in the industry do. I also know you have lot many satisfied customers and I can see why. I would have loved to be a part of that community as well. But then if I do find some issues with the cables it should not directly imply that either my system is flawed or my taste is not neutral. I use some of the most neutral gears this industry produces, ATC speakers and Symphonic Line Amplifier. I swear by neutrality but the fact is I could hear a particular signature sound with AM cables which I could not get over with. The cables did not disappear in my system.
In the end the debate can always go on as to whether the system exposed the cable's weakness or is it the cable that exposed the system's weakness. |
Hello Mrtennis, I am still wondering whether we both mean the same when we say "smooth". To me smoothness is a presentation without unnecessary edges combined with lack of overall sharpness. It has nothing to do with the tone color, thats my definition.
To illustrate, two cables which I find smooth yet tonally very different are Transparent Audio and Audio Magic. The AM has a very different tonal color though.
Coming over to sound of Silver...oh yes I am highly sensitive to the sound of silver. Especially the vocal range. Even a small trace of silver sound catches my attention almost instantly. Again I would say it is mostly in the vocal range where I hear the most. And, I have realized over time that anomalies are much easier to detect than strength. Most of the "Silver" effect can be heard all the way from lower midrange to high treble. And, vocals do cover a huge range. If a cable is flawed in the highs, chances are very high that it will show up in the vocals as well and it has always done in my case. It is extremely difficult to reproduce rightness of vocals. To me till date not a single Silver interconnect has got the vocals right. I would admit that I have not tried the high end Kondo, Audio Note, Argento and the likes. Would like to try them some time and see if my perception changes. But yes, you are right that the AM cables did have some "silver" sound. |
Drubin's version of photography was what I meant, thanks Drubin for making it simpler. However with AM, it was not severe but it was there. |
I would like to add more thing that should rather complete my stand point. I like copper cables in general, not that they dont have flaws, they do but the typical flaws that arise around a copper cable is quite different than that of silver cables. Personally I can live with the typical flaws of a copper cables but not with the flaws of the silver cable.
Obviously the goal is to eliminate the flaws and get to a cable which does everything well. Really good cables supposedly do that (doesnt matter silver or copper), I am waiting to hear a really good silver cable though. |
Dmailer, I bought the cables from here on Audiogon. The seller said he had done about 300 hours on it. I added another 100 hours to it before auditioning. As far as I remember the cable did not change much during the whole time. There was a slight improvement in overall smoothness. |
Bombaywalla, here are the specs from the manufacturer's site that I have just quoted in my post:
http://www.symphonic-line.com/product_poweramplifier_rg1_rg4_rg7_details.html
Apart from this I have personally spoken to RG and he confirmed the same. About the high bias in class A, this was again confirmed to me by RG because I was initially worried that my amp gets really warm even when it is not being played. The higher models (RG7,RG4) are biased even higher in class A is also something I learned from my conversation with RG.
There is no reason for me to bloat anything or make up info. Now, I have not heard a Kraft but how good is an RG1 is something I have done enough research to understand (apart from believing my ears). A Plinius SA-Ref sounded like shit in front of this amp and so did an Accuphase E450. There are many other comparisons I have done in the last 2 years of my ownership. Nothing could even touch this amp. While I am not using a 1 ohm load with the amp, I am neither using easy loads. Both Dynaudio and ATC needs loads of power to sing and this one amp has tamed both of them like babies.
Coming over to specs again, my previous Plinius 8200 MK2 integrated amp was rated at 35 amps per channel max current output. It had just one 400VA transformer. The SL sounds at least 3 times more powerful and controlled, relatively speaking. I am not a techie but you know what, all of us cannot be correct, someone is definitely bloating specs. Who is it, me, you or the manufacturer ? |
Bombaywalla, first of all please refrain from outright accusations unless you know where someone is coming from.
Coming over to the specs, I would either believe all his specs or none of his specs. I cannot imagine why he will specifically bloat the specs of one of his amps. Having said that I do find this amp very conservatively rated just by going through its performance in comparison to other similar speced amps I have heard.
Talking about driving capabilities, all I can say is I have seen quite a few weird examples where a particular amp just doesnt work with a particular speaker. A simple illustration was when an Usher BE-718 sounded lifeless on my SL while it sounded glorious on a $500 Marantz integrated. The same Marantz sounded totally out of control when it was made to handle my Contour 1.3SE which the SL tamed like a baby. As I said I am not a techie, so I will not jump into numbers, response curves etc...but I know things are not as straight forward as you are making it out to be. An Usher 718 is anyway an ill designed speaker, so anything is possible with it. However it was just to illustrate how things can go awry with amp-speaker matching.
Till date I have not been able to put a finger on the amp, I am lucky to have found something so good. Thanks to you guys who helped me in this regard. |
Another such example was when I drove a Maggie 1.6 through the RG1...the Maggies were singing and dancing like never before. I dont know the specs of the Maggie but going by your other posts it seems to be a difficult load. The room was about 400 sqft in area there was absolutely not a hint of strain on the amp. |
