@steakster It's not that these topics haven't always been discussed since the beginning, it's the premise that perhaps tweaks and wires have shifted from a sometimes topic to overwhelming the joint. If you go back just 5+ years ago you will see far more discussions relating to various amplifier design architectures and speaker pairings for example. It's the relative balance of discussion that I'm raising as a question and concern. |
I also think there is an allure to the notion that a major improvement can be had for a relatively small cash outlay compared to amplifiers or speakers. Something like..."While I may not be able to afford that $2,500 amp right now, I certainly could swing $150 for a fuse or $200 for a new cable...let's go that path because I've read it really matters." |
I see someone feels so incredibly threatened by this thread that they started an identically named thread in order to dilute the conversation. Incredible. Draw your own conclusions. |
I didn’t have it removed. The Mods must have removed it because they believed it was created for the sole purpose of mocking my thread. Forum members can draw their own conclusions. |
After hijacking my thread in order to bring everyone up to speed on what was included in the thread that was deleted by the Mods, perhaps MC will let us proceed with a thoughtful discussion regarding audiophile priorities that forum members feel have moved the sonic needle most and given them the most enjoyment - and perhaps which mattered the least. Looking forward to the input.
btw - the irony of being lectured on blather by someone who has posted 10,895 messages in less than 3 years isn't lost on me ;-) |
@jjss49 All good points on the fundamentals - and the pinned threads which are very helpful in other forums.
Audio has definitely been and continues to be quite a journey for me. Some of my hallelujah moments which helped shaped my priorities have included: Class A amps, single-ended/triode tube designs, effective room treatment, amp/speaker synergy, tube gear in general, easy to drive speakers with high & flat impedance, isolation transformers in conjunction with tube gear, and the use of quality SUTs.
Some of my experiments that haven’t led to much increased sonic joy have included power cables (although my Sugden amp is the exception as it responds well), interconnects (I can hear a difference but it’s subtle), and speaker cables (I’m very hard pressed to hear a difference in any although my old Wireworld cables definitely sounded better lifted off the floor - lifting never improved the other brands I’ve tried). I tried a SR Blue fuse once and couldn’t hear a difference but it was worth a try. I can’t hear the difference between USB cables and feel silly having spent too much money on a couple.
Some areas where some benefits occur and are worth probably about what you pay for them - quality rack (I use Symposium), component isolation (primarily with tube gear and TT setup - I like Rollerblocks but only buy them used). Rolling tubes definitely can shape sonics but it can take a while find tubes that you connect with, it gets expensive with vintage, and figuring out what works well in any given piece of gear can take a bit of effort - some gear just doesn’t respond well). |
@audioman58 I’ve been very curious for years about trying out something from the Living Voice speaker line. You can occasionally find used examples show up for very reasonable prices. They are typically 94dB 6ohm designs but the impedance curve is very tube friendly - which is important to me. They present a resistive load which translates to a flat impedance, and an inductive rather than a capacitive phase angle. So they provide tubes with a consistent and predictable load. Even new these speakers are well below $15K and I’d certainly call them "respectable Audiophile" by any measure.
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@whart Thanks for the very thoughtful post Bill. I'm not trying to imply that anyone "started this" but you are correct that I'm asserting that perhaps "undue emphasis is placed on these (arguably secondary) items, perhaps at the expense to the neophyte of addressing more important issues first. (And addressing may or may not involve spending money)."
And beyond the neophyte addressing the the more impactful issues first I'm actually just very interested in hearing accounts from folks on this forum about where individual audiophile priorities fall based on actual experiences. What areas have had the biggest impacts? Where would you definitely not waste money?...etc. |
@arafiq @three_easy_payments -- is it fair to assume that your concern is not so much with the value (or lack thereof) of the suggested tweaks but the sudden onslaught of the 'presumably' newly-minted posters?
It's the onslaught of tweak-based threads that could lead to the suggestion that tweaks merit a very high (inappropriately so) audiophile priority. It's the balance of the conversation that I sense has shifted and wanted to raise this as a point of discussion in this thread. Whether just one person is behind the theme and is replicating names more quickly than Agent Smith in The Matrix is a totally separate topic. |
@whart made me reflect on a point that hits very close to home. My entire audio journey and experience has shaped my current priorities and allows me to more deeply appreciate the gear and setups that I'm using today.
The hallelujah moments and the sonic disasters alike. All of the dead-end paths, Class D amps I didn't connect with, magical discoveries with triode circuits, improvements through effective room treatment, disappointments in a fuse etc....have all allowed me to more greatly enjoy and appreciate what I have today than if I had never had these experiences and simply started with what I own as of this moment. |
@lucky_doggg
Now, tweaks will not overcome equipment that is not to one's liking, then absolutely yes, emphasis on a tweak is the wrong direction to go, but if one is satisfied relative to other gear, then tweaks to improve performance I think is an acceptable topic.
Totally agree with this. It's about the balance in priorities and being realistic of what areas move the sonic needle the most. Obviously we are all free to spend our money and set priorities as we see fit. I'm just inquiring into where folks have seen the most joy from their priorities. Conversely, I just read this statement by a member on another thread and just can't relate to someone who attributes 50% of their wonderful sound to cables - but hey, that's just me. Please weigh in if you find cables provide 50%+ of your system's sound quality.
My system will still sound good to me as will my belief that the cables I purchased are easily 50% of the reason it sounds good.
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@jjss49
intended or not, this thread is turning out to be quite a good one with numerous posters entering the discussion with interesting angles and thoughts, and as such, it makes this a better place to spend time at (as opposed to, say a few nitwits who bicker constantly and endlessly about class d amps, and so on, without any useful exchanges of real information)
It would be wonderful if the tenor and spirit of healthy exchange gathered a momentum, sustaining into newly opened threads as well. It's very refreshing and I appreciate the feedback. |
@frogman
As tempting as it may be and as justified as one may feel, DONT PLAY! (thicker skin). Ignore the jerks and provocateurs.
Sage advise. I certainly could improve my own behavior as it's too easy to get baited into behaving in a less-than-virtuous behavior. |
to be honest.....
lol How many ID's did you create in late July all with less than 50 posts? And only posting on topics like Quantum Science, Tekton, and Fuses....something seems so familiar here. |
@jetter Totally agree on @mahgister! What a class act. It would be great if he could weigh in on this thread and share his audiophile priorities with us too. |
lol - it was so pathetic I felt no need to comment. |
Good point @tomic601 Mahgister has stated that he doesn't even own vinyl. How off-putting certain commentators must be to him with their polarizing positions on digital vs analog. I value my digital and analog front ends equally.
All this thread was about was reflecting on audiophile priorities recognizing that everything matters and there is role for everything - but there may be a hierarchy that folks can reflect on. I provided mine and I welcome all perspectives - not just those that mirror mine. |
@mahgister driven off? His last post was 4 days ago. This thread was started 2 days ago.
MC - your narrative is so contrived and no one is buying it...just give it a rest. The threads created by others over the past 2 days by forum members have been wonderful and I love seeing the great exchanges. No bullying, constructive banter...what a wonderful thing. I’m getting nice PM’s....all hoping that ding dong the witch is dead. |
@coralkong Look, this is only the 2nd thread I’ve created in the last 12 months. Others have created many multiples of this in just a few months so the tenor of the forum likely comes from subjects posted by others - much more than me. Believe it or not we even have one member who has created 62 threads and nearly 11,000 posts in under 3 years so perhaps that's the source of the vibe you're picking up. In any event, it’s very odd that you randomly stumble on my thread to broadly share the following: I own Tekton speakers. I had a good experience. *shrugs* YMMV.
This place doesn’t seem very friendly, just saying.... Why post this is on a thread that had nothing to do with Tekton speakers and is simply serving as an outreach to members to post their experiences with audio priorities? Maybe you meant to post this on another thread? In any event, we are a welcoming bunch so please share anything else you’d like about the gear that gives you joy, including your Tektons and any other components. |
Thanks @coralkong - all good ;) |
@sns At least for purposes of this thread I wasn't trying to define a tweak. I just wanted to get input on where audiophiles were assigning priorities in the build out of their systems. Not sure it matters if we call component isolation a tweak, or cabling a tweak etc...I just wondered how focused folks were on these items relative to other priorities. |
@jetter I do not consider interconnects, or speaker and power cables tweaks.
I’d agree but would you claim to be deriving more than 50% of your system’s listening pleasure from your cabling alone? I ask this as I’m genuinely curious because I’ve read the claim being made and it simply doesn’t cinch up with my own personal experiences or even guidance you read in say Harley’s book. I wouldn’t assign more than 10% or so to cables which means I acknowledge it can certainly make a difference and is worth addressing but it’s not close to being one of my highest priorities. So the thread was created to foster a discussion of what are your highest priorities and what role (and relative importance) do areas like cables, footers, and fuses have in your system? I just know my experience and I’d like to hear others. Our collective accounts could be really helpful to others. |
Tons of people talking about how great their stuff sounds on Nobsound springs, or on Pods, or Podiums. QSA fuses, Stones, all kinds of things. You should try reading them.
I’ve definitely read them. And now I’d like to hear how people feel those areas (among ALL others) fit into an audiophile’s overall prioritization. Yes, my own viewpoints have been expressed as I do feel the role of springs, fuses, and stones are overstated in terms of impact (simply from my experience). This is an open forum to share ALL of our collective experiences - not just yours MC. Stop complaining about people sharing their experiences just because they don’t match yours. You hate the thread....we get it...so move on. And I love it - I got ’whatevered". ;-) |
@mitch2 I think your characterization is spot on. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. +1 |
@cleeds +1
I too believe cables make a difference - and you need to be a "non-idiot" to produce a good one. I just don't think they are contributing to more than 5-10% of my system's overall performance - and appreciate other's thoughts on the relative impact that cables and other items make on their rigs. |
@oldhvymec
Vibration control, 5-10%.
Gear 30-35% maybe a little higher 40%
Electrical 5-10%.
Room and room acoustics, 40-50%
Tweaks.. 5-10% including cables..
This has been my experience as well. @femoore +1 To me the main components (speakers, source, preamp/amp, cables/interconnects) are the priority.
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@jpwarren
can we now address the difference between stones, pebbles, and rocks?
And let's not forget about crystals and nano particles. |
@unreceiveddogma
Which would you choose?
$2000 on a room treatment for 25% improvement $2000 on cables for at best 5% improvement
Agreed on this example. It strikes me that your focus would only shift to tweaks when you feel that you've done all you could in every other area of priority first. What really got me motivated to start the thread was the premise posited by a few members who seemed to give a disproportionately large level of priority to areas that I thought would be the absolute last areas to focus on. Seems many others agree. Much appreciated...and cool website! |
Out of curiosity I took a quick look at Robert Harley's well-known book "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" to see what his guidance was on tweaks. He discusses them in Chapter 15 (out of 16). He indicates that these items can be used to address an "audiophiles' need to squeeze out those last bits of musical performance out of their systems." He also says that you should not even think about these items before making sure you have optimized speaker positioning and room acoustics first and having first built a solid foundation. A few quotes I found interesting, while he did acknowledge that some accessories can certainly make improvements: Other accessories can not only fail to improve the sound, but can actually degrade it. To make matters even more complicated, many accessories are completely worthless - nothing more than snake oil sold by less-than-honest promoters that have no effect on sound.
Listen before you buy It seems that Harley's priorities align well with mine and many others that have posted in this thread. It's interesting that the Editor-in-Chief of The Absolute Sound used the term "snake oil". I honestly didn't expect that. |
@unreceiveddogma
does he offer examples?
Not too many, rather he states "I don't endorse every accessory described here - I simply report on what's available." However he did include this about examples of indisputably worthless products: Examples include an alligator clip , to be attached to a speaker cable to prevent the speaker's "gravitational influence" from affecting the audio signal. Another claims to "energize" the electrons in an audio system with a combination of lithium salts and cobra venom. |
@danager
I've had mixed success with replacing stock AC cords. It had zero impact on my old Pass XA30.8 (even using a Purist Audio) but had a very notable improvement on my Sugden A21SE (I'm using an Audio Envy - under $200).
Installing a dedicated AC line was definitely a cost effective improvement for me as well - for ~$250 it was great to get that line isolated for audio gear.
What has yours' and others' experiences been? |
Thanks for sharing your experiences @danager... exactly the type of input I'm so curious about. The roles and impacts of tweaks relative to entire system/room.
With that foundation I can now work on tweaks.
I totally agree with this. Get everything else optimized and then see what you can do to tweak out the remaining goodness - if available. The last tweak that I made that really felt like it moved the needle was using isolation transformers ahead of my amps. Really effectively lowered the noise floor and didn't sound like it was choking the dynamics like other conditioners. It worked better than AQ Niagara and PS Audio regenerators. I'm using the Equi=Core combined with the Deep=Core. Makes the biggest difference with my tube amps...yet still notable with SS. On other components I can't really tell any incremental gains. I would say my overall sound quality moved up by at least 5% with this tweak so it was worthwhile. I'd say for me that amp/speaker synergy is 65%+ of achieving the sound experience I'm looking for with at least 20% remaining in room acoustics/treatment/speaker positioning. Any remaining ~15% is a combo of tube rolling/isolation & vibration control/cables/isolation transformers. And yes, sound per dollar is exactly right. |
@kennyc is correct. I really need to refrain from letting MC drag me down to his level - a level that only exists in a vocabulary full of "butt hurt", "rent free", YouTube links, and "whatever". Honestly, what adult talks like that? His actions will create his own inescapable "brand" so I’m fine with stepping away and allowing him to live with the legacy documented in these pages. People are smart enough to see what’s going on - that’s for sure.
I’m very much encouraged by the input this thread is generating - lots of folks chiming in with their audio priority weightings. Thanks to all. |
It’s 58 years of collecting LPs. That’s 6,000+ LPs. I have started the process of weeding out 600.
If you have any interesting 50s/60s/early70s jazz that you want to purge just reach out ;-) |
@tvad Thanks for lucid thoughts on this as always. If nothing else, the input on this thread over the past 4 pages validates your premise that far and away forum members are applying tweaks as tweaks - not expecting them to be the cornerstone of one’s system.
One of the more negative, and long-running aspects of the tweak threads is how they always tend to devolve into a "who is right?" argument. (Sometimes they don't devolve - they start right out of the gate guns-a-blazin’). It would be so refreshing just to simply share our experiences and allow all to absorb and consider - as opposed to taking a position to "argue". It seems years ago that Audiogon had more of a spirit of comradery. Now some posters just resort to name-calling, Youtube-linking, and use of a 12 yr-old’s codes for shaming as a method of showing dominance in a discussion. Hopefully we will see this behavior dissipate and we all take individual ownership of making this a better place by acting more friendly. This is certainly my intention. |
@tvad I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear that this thread didn't single-handedly drive him away from the forum! lol |
@lemonhaze
I'm sure there are a large number of experienced members who seldom post now because of all the vitriol spewed around. It never used to be like this , I remember avidly reading new posts of interest and looking forward to the next Thursday's Weekly recap. Not so much anymore.
I couldn't agree more and my hope is that we are slowly turning the Queen Mary towards a better, more friendly trajectory. The fact that so many like you are voicing this message appears to be helping (at least in the near term). I remain optimistic that we will see more people starting to post as they become less fearful of being dressed down or becoming the target of vitriol as you say. |
