Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

I am a longtime member here, and a member of several other forums, including ASR.  ASR has its good points and its bad points, as does AudioGon and every other forum.  Just as I am confused about the hostility here by many towards A/B testing, which is one tool, I am confused by the hostility towards objective measurements.  It seems that neither pure “objectivists” nor pure “subjectivists” are correct.  Sound is a combination of system synergy, room acoustics, and even a person’s hearing. So it seems that while neither group is absolutely correct, ultimately the subjective sound counts more to me in my system that objective measurements.  That does not seem to be a controversial position.

That being said, I struggle with the concept that differences in sound cannot be objectively measured, perhaps by REW.  It seems logical that a difference in sound should measurable in some way.  That goes especially for the idea of “break-in,” which theoretically could be measurable in some way.  If a power cord or speaker cable needs 100 hours of “break-in,” which I really dont understand, shouldn’t that difference be measurable in some way?

Power cables are a very good example of the objectivist v. Subjectivist dilemma.  I recently put some pretty pricey Shunyata Research power cables in.  The first one that I used was clearly (to me) an audible improvement over stock.  Why?  Who knows. But why isn’t that difference measurable in some way?  Logic dictates that it should be.  Same when I changed speaker cables.  Many cable manufacturers make all sorts of jumbo-jumbo marketing claims.  But shouldn’t there be a way to test those differences objectively between one cable and another? Sure seems so. Even if there is no way to measure the difference, I hear a difference.  Doesn’t mean that measurements are meaningless . . . It just means that we don’t have the means to test that difference, I suppose.

On ASR, the consensus is the opposite.  If it can’t be measured, then any difference is in the imagination or bias of the listener, which I know at least in my case is not accurate. Nonetheless, I like to know that my $$$ Shunyata power cable measures the same as lamp cord, even if it sounds much different.  To me that shows the failure of pure objectivism, although I can’t explain why the difference cannot be measured.

For similar reasons, I don’t understand the hostility among many to A/B testing.  I know that it is sometimes difficult to set that sort of test up, but logically, a listener should be able to discern differences quickly.  I remember a friend and I wanted to determine whether there was any difference between a manufacturer’s digital cable and a toslink one.  Switching back and forth, we were both in agreement that the Toslink cable sounded better. So there is a value to A/B testing too.

Then there is the tweaking.  Surely, if a tweak improves the sound, there should be a measurable difference, right? What about one of my favorites, the Shun Mook $5,000 record clamp made from aged ebony from swamps in Africa.  The claims made for why that magic ebony makes any more difference than a regular record clamp has got to be measurable in some way, doesn’t it?  Or are we supposed to simply accept the jumbo-jumbo without looking for some scientific basis?

The bottom line to my rambling is that ASR has its place and its utility.  People do not need to accept those findings as gospel, but they are a factoid to be weighed and balanced with other things.  Ultimately, the test is a subjective one:  regardless of measurements, how does it sound to YOU.  And that means that someone might hear an astounding difference and another person might not.  Doesn’t mean that there is no difference.  It just means that when you add a person’s hearing into the mix, it sounds better or worse for that person.

@prof, I think you misunderstood some of my points. Starting with the basic assumption that, for example, power cables can sound better, that should be something that is objectively measurable. If it cannot be, why not? I personally have heard differences between cables - not all, mind you, but some. Logically that should be measurable.  I heard a sonic improvement when I added an ARC REF6 instead of going DAC direct to amp, although that was counterintuitive to me.  That difference should be measurable too.  But ultimately, assuming that measurements do not show any difference, does that mean that I am imagining a difference or we have not developed a methodology to test differences in soundstage,for example.  I am pretty sure that I am not imagining things, but always open to confirmation bias.  That is why I ask the ultimate question: If it doesn’t measure differently, does that mean ipso facto that there are no sonic differences?

@prof, excellent and very thoughtful answer to my post.  I agree wholeheartedly that if something measures differently (and I referred to REW, and not just S/N, distortion figures, etc., because that theoretically should give you lots of data points that show a difference when something is changed in your system, since something should change in some of that data if it sounds different). If you think that there is a difference, despite no objective support for it, A/B testing is the perfect way to eliminate confirmation bias.  Can a difference in depth of soundstage, or positioning of instruments within a soundstage be objectively measured?  I don't know the answer to that. What role does confirmation bias play in me believing that I hear a difference?  I don't know the answer to that either, although I like to think that I am being objective. I replaced an Audience Power Chord that I had used for a long time on my DAC with a $$$ Shunyata one (same length, but slightly lower AWG after liking what they did for my Preamp (over stock) and speakers.  I can honestly say that I hear no real difference . . . maybe an ever so slight improvement, but that could definitely be representative of a struggle to hear a difference because I expect/want a difference -- the paradigm of confirmation bias.

 But as you accurately point out, whatever the answers are, A/B testing should yield a consistent result that eliminates confirmation bias. That is why I am surprised that A/B testing is not more widely accepted here on AudioGon.  A very interesting thread as putting many manufacturers' claims to objective tests has always been an interest of mine.  Thanks for the thoughtful response.

@crymeanaudioriver I personally would love to participate in A/B testing for anything, but especially the seemingly wild claims of things like the Shun Mook, Stillpoints that you scatter around, risers that elevate cables off the floor, that weird brass salad bowl that "snaps the soundstage into focus," etc.. . every manufacturer has some sales patter regarding how their tweak real works, but no one really cites either objective measurements or the results of A/B testing. That would be a lot of fun! Maybe some tweaks manufacturers would be willing to do some A/B testing at Axpona?