Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

Amir-again dumb retort.  Of course good designers use test equipment to design and test their results.  However, if it ended there, they are making HUGE mistakes without knowing it.  Speaker designers who don't listen to adjust settings are not very good designers.  My example of measurement uber alles for making the most expensive and as good as it should be at $850 million orchestral hall just confirms that there is more than measurements in design.  After most modern orchestral halls are built (including that one and my local Disney Hall), they nearly always undergo significant renovation to make them sound better.  Why, because we hear the results and adjust afterwards which can include new measurements and cannot rely on only scientific results. 

@jtgofish I mentioned two such ASR member posters who appear quite reasonable (one who has gotten lambasted like me) and another who posts but no one appears to confront him. I’m sure there are others. Note that my disagreements are character assassination based, defamation, not with his ASR business practices which I may disagree on but are perfectly legal (unlike posters who want to put high end manufacturers in prison for allegedly defrauding the public). So, it’s not us versus them in my forum, but defamation (the taking of a person’s good name is almost like killing them) and lack of transparency while uttering unsupported or undersupported assertations of equipment quality.  Now this is not just most ASR members but Amir himself who commits defamation of character.

@amir_asr "There is no wall at ASR. Hundreds of members join the forum from all walks of life. Only a handful get banned because all they want to do is argue and not provide any data to the conversation."

THIS IS A LIE!!!! My first post was my personal experience with the CD trimmer. I shared that I purchased it very cheap to TRY it. I didn’t find it worthwhile (compared to destating a CD prior to play) and could make a big % profit reselling it. What was so wrong with that? Instead, immediate character assassination by your minions. I stated some more experience and opinions and whamo, I was constantly insulted. I hurled one back and voila! I received a warning. This kept going for an hour or two and I was banned. Everything I said in a neutral and explanatory vein was excised. The excision part of the statement was turned upside down and altered to state a negative rather than a neutral. I mentioned that I have underground power lines in my community.   I didn't say it was good or bad but rare to have an outage.   Those minions tore it apart giving it all kinds of meanings and of course, character assassination that I was professing that I am superior to them.  I never stated any such thing and would not as I don't know any of them personally.  

Yeah, your site is really a nice place to visit-NOT!!!  

@amir_asr "Some of you know that I am the founder of a company (Madrona Digital) that does custom integration of electronics into very high end homes."

I don't know your work (why don't you tell us about these custom high end installations)?

When I was a commercial real estate appraiser, I had occasion to appraise some quite fancy homes in the late-1980s ranging in $5 to $10 million in value.  I remember one Malibu Riviera home of $10 million that had Martin Logan electrostats mounted in the walls facing each other 2 stories high.   Wow, that must have sounded great (terrible in fact).  I saw rich homeowners hiring video and audio installers with $250,000+ systems that were terrible sounding (good video though).  I take no credence in your company's installations unless 1. I know what components were used and 2. (unlikely to happen) I can hear the results for myself.  

@crymeanaudioriver  You are in league with Amir.  I have no qualms about Amir's ASR testing equipment site.  That's his business.  I detest anyone who perverts a neutral statement I make into something that attacks another's character for that reason.  This is what ASR minions and now Amir on THIS SITE has done!!!   He has personally perverted what I did not do for his own jollies.  He is an evil person.  It is called Defamation. 

His malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.  That's me.

"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"  That's Amir (just like his site).

Notice, he keeps posting more virulent posts.  

 @amir_asr

Now addressing this bit in OP:

@fleschler

Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.

How on earth did this pass as an argument? "Some of the posters" listen to this and some other music? What if they did? That makes them less of a music lover and audiophile?

You expletive!!! (reposted because I don't want to stoop down to his level)  You are doing exactly what your minions did to me. Taking what I said out of context. I said one poster listened to a type of music which would be difficult to use to achieve an evaluation of the loudspeaker or system sound. I said that it could be appealing to that listeners choice of music. I NEVER stated that that listener's choice of music was wrong or anything about his character.  You pervert other posters thoughts here as your minions do on ASR.  Character assassin!!!

OldHvyMec at ASR makes cogent and experienced statements concerning "ALL things BREAK-IN." He has the reputation to make that assertion, especially in relation to cables/wires and equipment of all types (including audio).

HarmonicTHD member asserts "Cables are not mechanics. There is no wear, nor Burn-In, nor Break-In."

Then JSmith and Axo1989 talk about pancakes, off-topic and irrelevant.

This is a typical ASR dialogue.

@teo_audio Oh, very good lecture.  I will use this in a Toastmaster's meeting if that's okay with you.  In my religion, we debate everything in life and in many families children question everything.  Maybe that's why so many of my kinsmen are wildly out of proportion to are small population, Nobel laureates, scientists and inventors.

@crymeanaudioriver Your statement concerning Amir’s TESTING of the CD trimmer is IRRELEVANT to my statement made of MY EXPERIENCE using it. The hatred and condescension in the replies to my experience was 100% uncalled for.

I am not upset with Amir’s testing although I disagree with it’s relevance over listening in different rooms with different systems (most often published and on-line reviewers indicate the equipment and multiple choices to test by ear, the equipment such as multiple amplifiers to match with speakers or multiple speakers to match with an amp, etc).

I am extremely upset with character assassination, defamation, perverted twisting of neutral statements/personal experiences which degrade the person stating them and the statement. That’s what he has now done on Audiogon.

As to your 100% certainty that all pressed CDs sound alike is up for discussion, not 100% certain. My friends in the manufacturing/stamping of CDs note the variation, somewhat like the variation in pressing of vinyl. My friends and I note that some variation in pressed CDs occur despite the manufacture in the SAME facility. Using the same digital information at different manufacturing plants can result in greater variation (I have 2 complete sets of the Mercury Living Presence classical CD reissues and it is very obvious about 15 of the early pressings sound very different). My friends and I have maybe a dozen copies of Kids Songs for Grown-Ups that there are variations in sound, relating to dynamics and tonal balance.

Now you can call that nonsense but here at Audiogon we can freely discuss our experiences, despite some test measurements that could maintain that there are no measurable differences.

As to reading CDs, I have tried numerous three beam laser transports using computer drives and find them inferior to old, single beam, single pass reading transports. I use one and so do my friends. I have heard some very expensive modern transports that sound great but at great cost. I haven’t heard all of them obviously. However, I use an extremely upgraded Arcam Delta 250 transport (15+ caps, resistors, 10 regulators) which uses the Philips CDM 9 laser system. On this site, we have had multiple forums on transports. My alternative choices to hear are the Jays Audio and Proceed transports. I tried the PS Audio, which I liked in concept but disliked in the resulting sound, possibly due to poor implementation such as cheap computer drive and/or parts. The same with Emotiva. They make well constructed, inexpensive, often good design quality CD players but use computer grade parts rather than audio grade parts. Again, just because computer grade parts measure great does not mean they sound great. I have had extensive experience with Marantz CD players new and old. In the past 12 years, they tend to have a less resolving and warmer tonal balance which is pleasant but inadequate for me (or my friends who also tried them). The 35 year old Kyocera 310 and 410 units, especially with upgraded power caps, sound more open and musically satisfying. They have ceramic vibration elements and a sapphire spindle using a single pass drive. I have four friends who use that as their main CD player and I use one in my secondary system.

@crymeanaudioriver  You LIE just like Amir.  You know very well as I clearly stated how he took a neutral statement about someone's preferred music and pervertedly twisted it into a negative character comment which I DO NOT DO.  I was NOT commenting on ASR's preference on NOT permitting, untested/unscientific backing for an experience.  I WAS CLEARLY stating that contorting and twisting statements to say the opposite and character assassination are defaming.  

@nonoise Brilliant-Audio Measurement Review

Robin_L at ASR has contributed interesting knowledge concerning early recordings such as 

Had a job for a year at Ray Avery's Rare Records in Glendale. (PS-I went there for LPs many times)  There were lots of 78's there. The fairly large stack of Enrico Caruso 78's went for $10 a pop in 1977. I don't know if you've ever heard an acoustically recorded 78 played back on a properly functioning player of quality, but the results are uncanny. Yes, frequency response is a disaster but the sense of the musician being in the room is greater than I have heard with any other record/play system.

And Caruso was about dynamics and presence above all. It was the nature of his art, a vocal artist who could fill a large hall with sound before amplifiers.

I'd say there're no "Witches" (in the old pejorative sense, not in the more recent neopagan "Oh lookee, there's Aunt Connie with the kush!" sense) but the practice of different forms of audio magic. It's hard to assign a numeric scale of "quality" to music and the quality of its sound. The range of musical soundscapes is far too varied for that.

Mercury was the one company most famous for recording on that media, there were early Everest recordings and issues on the Command Performance label sourced from 35 mm tape as well. Apparently 35 mm tape recordings did not store as well as regular tape so that when the Mercury Living Presence series was carefully reissued on CDs, sometimes the back-up tapes---three channels on 1/2" tape---were used instead. During the late fifties/early sixties, when these sorts of recordings were being made, there was a push to make three-channel recordings and getting that format accessible to the public. RCA's three channel recordings were eventually issued as three-channel SACDs, and Mercury did the same, if I recall correctly. I remember much improved lateral stereo imaging playing the 3-channel sourced material back when I had a 5.1 system. Still have the SACDs.

Think of it---took 40 years and the development of high-resolution audio media to reproduce the sound the audio engineers were hearing back in 1960.   

I note that most of the vinyl site regards it as inferior and many say it's not worth listening to.   

I will also note that Ward Marston has remastered the entire Caruso catalog on 12 CDs in superb sound, so playing the original 78s is next to unnecessary (I have about 80 of his recordings on 78 and many on LP).  Big as life sound in digital as well now.  

@crymeanaudioriver Of course you took my ASR statements out of context.  

The liar statement refers to AMIR's specific perversion of my neutral statements concerning types of listener's music on THIS FORUM.  

As to the ASR, why don't you post the entire idiotic and stupid comments made the entire 1 or 2 hours I posted, beginning with my benign neutral statements, then becoming more insistent that these ASR posters refused to hear anything they didn't measure or use alternative (better source) material for evaluating equipment.  I did not say anything about their taste in music, only related to evaluating equipment-hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia are generally bereft of many elements of audio.   Compare to classical orchestral, jazz and big band.  There is a difference in audio recordings.  Why not use all of them?  I suggested jazz-which was immediately shot down.  There is nothing wrong with listening to alternative/modern music (except gangsta rap which wants police dead and women raped).  

You are an incestuous follower of Amir.  Maybe his wife or husband posting here.

ASR Geert posted that Audiogon has removed it’s own postings. No, I removed my own and reposted them because I was being too angry (going down to their level).

Now the posters are going after OldHvyMec for suggesting/stating that equipment always Breaks-in and mostly because he had the audacity to state that cable also breaks-in/burns-in.  Some say he should leave and go to wire testing forums.

267 ASR posts in rebuttal with more now coming against Audiogon forum and it's moderator.  

@cd13 Note what @crymeanaudioriver imbecilic statement that "have heard awful classical recordings, and jazz and much big band is old and mono." Why would I or anyone else use awful classical or jazz or big band recordings to evaluate audio equipment? It is obvious that I ONLY meant high quality recorded and engineered/mastered recordings. Funny, I’d say 80% of my 500+ post 1950s jazz CDs are of high end recording and mastered qualities and maybe 20% of my classical orchestral. I have over 28,500 LPs and 7,000 CDs and recorded and mastered about 250+ classical orchestral, chamber and choral recordings, including major venues.

@prof I was only pointing out a prior Audiogon contributor who I found interesting who has been an avid ASR contributor but now is ridiculed and deemed unworthy of remaining because he said something different (which most manufacturers of quality audio equipment believe is true, and I believe true of inexpensive equipment as well). Tell me a speaker or cartridge, very mechanical devices, don’t break-in.

@tonywinga 100%. I stated as much concerning modern (100% computer/AI designed) concert halls versus classic old concert halls.  Funny thing is that after the initial performances of a season or two, nearly all of those modern halls are then "renovated," "adjusted" to sound better generally determined by listening to the results and finding fault.  

Luckily, my audiophile friends, mastering engineers and audio equipment manufacturer don't doubt what I hear.  The former and latter friends have provided me with acoustic room suggestions in my former home.  The mastering engineers just share music.

@prof

Right, and after OldHvyMec made his first major statement, there was a dispute, then 2 pancake posts and then posts where he could peddle his wire and break-in assumptions.

As to cartridge break-in, just admit you know nothing concerning vinyl playback. There are no tests that I have viewed indicating new versus 50 hour break-in results in sonic characteristic changes. HOWEVER, just because it wasn’t tested, I am not going out on a limb by stating nearly every other site discussing and reviewing cartridges ALWAYS recommends listening/reviewing after break-in, 15 hours or 50 hours or whatever.

I will swear that I have heard break-in of my new cartridges after 50 hours of play, which has happened over a dozen times since I’ve owned VPI turntables (40 years in 2023).

As to speakers, my dynamic speakers took about 50 to 100 hours to go from very dark sounding to open sounding.  Not subtle, very obvious.  I'm with OldHvyMec 100% on mechanical break-in. 

As a cable beta tester, I hear the cable raw, then burn it in for 24 hours.  I can't say I can always tell if it sounds better, but I can always tell when it sounds worse.  Depends on the cable.  Doesn't matter to ASR.   Tubes, maybe an hour or two.

I had never heard of ASR until I saw a post about Synergistic Research cable and snake oil. I found my prior purchase of a Foundation digital cable really bad in my system. I was offered a trial of their 3rd from the top. I tried it and was blown away at how superior it made my digital system sound. So, I followed the link and wound up with the CD trimmer comment. I made my comment and was pilloried. Further comments came with character assassinations, innuendo and just perverting my initial neutral statements concerning the trimmer, SR cable and whatever. I got mad but mentioned my recording history and work with studios. Nope, just got worse.

Despite being blocked on my Chrome IP, I easily access the site now which is why i know about current postings. I am no dummy, I started using computers full time in 1982 (I am not inferring that anyone who is not computer literate or a late comer to computers is a dummy, just that I can write programming for the software that I used in the past).

I was really mad when I began this forum. Nearly all long time Audiogon posters on this forum see what ASR is about and how angry they are at us for using our hearing ability to determine what is most pleasing in the reproduction of music. Measurements are important. Lack of measurements or less than optimal measurements does not condemn a product. Good listening determines if the result is favorable or not.

Okay, how many vinyl listening Audiogoners claim that cartridges break-in or don’t?

@prof denies what he doesn’t hear or know. Yes, if you can’t hear a cartridge break-in on a good sounding system, you could be suffering with a bad short/long term sonic memory, inadequate vinyl playback system, etc. I’m at a loss here. I have never met someone who does not believe that cartridge’s break-in with use and change their sonic characteristics and usually set-up requirements. I’ve spoken to many cartridge distributors over 50 years and they all said wait until the cartridge break-in to hear what it can do.

I want to know what profession or professor of @prof is as his handle indicates?

ASR Frgirard Your points are

The willful ignorance of the primacy of speaker-room coupling by taking refuge in the magic of equalization.

the willful ignorance of the primacy of the decay in the bass and the rest of the spectrum.

the spending of thousands of dollars on equipment to listen in rotten rooms, a total lack of rationality here and on AG.

I spent $150K+ building my listening room from the ground up (12" 3000 psi steel reinforced slab, 16" multi-dimensional walls with chambered activated carbon bass trap filters, etc). I use no equalization. I have various room treatments for mid and high frequency absorption, smoothing, diffusion and decay/reverb. In doing so, I do not require state of the art equipment to obtain a very high quality sound reproduction absent state of the art/expensive high end equipment. Putting well designed speakers of moderate price (even $1K) will react superbly in my new room. I’ve built several other sound rooms in prior homes but they were good but not great. Then again, I have heard a few superb large systems in very large untreated rooms at audio shows at high cost ($1m+). The room is generally very important (as it is in my live recordings) but sometimes the equipment can perform well in a wide variety of settings (Von Schweikerts).
 

What’s Best Forum I have for several years joined and enjoyed camaraderie of other audiophiles forums. That site is generally more congenial and well mannered than any other forum site I frequent. Disagreements do not involve character assassination or defamation. (Except with posters experiences with Acoustic Fields company/owner). I prefer hearing about others experiences than reading about the gold standard measurements as Amir prefers. Good for him but Darko uses different measurements and often reveals different answers. Choices and variable methods to conduct experiments occur in measurements. So Amir is not the greatest tester of audio equipment. There are serious drawbacks on measurements themselves. If measurements are the gold standard, then listening in a system in a room is the platinum standard.

Audioshark, Audiokarma and older sites I visited were quite nice and amiable. DIYers also was very informative lacking acrimonious postings. Why is that?

@laoman @russ69 Thank you for your experiences which reveal more about Amir and his buddies who accompanied him to Audiogon to TELL us what we need to make intelligent equipment decisions.  Just like you laoman, I don't need someone to educate me at 66 after my extensive listening experiences, what sounds best to me. 

When I upgraded my digital cable two months ago, I've had audiophiles and non-audiophiles just revel in the digital reproduced music.  The audiophiles say "best ever sound."  Well, I can't say that because I have heard absolutely fantastic sound systems better than mine (and expensive).   No problem as I'm living within my means.  My wife, a very tough customer who says she is now always concentrates on the sound before listening to the music much to her consternation, just sat and listened for several hours (also unusual) to a variety of smooth jazz and her rock music (1970s to heavy metal) when I upgraded the cable.  She said it sounds like vinyl.   

Today, Positive Feedback has an article by Roger Skoff-Hi-Fi Weather? Roger Skoff Writes About Something You May Not Have Thought Of…

I found the end of the article not dealing with weather’s affect on sound propagation most enlightening (especially if true) "None of those changes is massive but, with even average human hearing having a 100 decibel range from the lowest sound we can hear to the loudest sound we can bear without injury, our ears have a single-scale resolution range of 1 to 1 BILLION—far greater than any known test instrument—so even differences that might seem prohibitively small may be clearly audible."

@laoman I listened to the entire Darko audio. Wow, a balanced and intelligent conversation. Thank you so much for shedding light on the topic of equipment testing.

@russ69 I really doubt that my listening room, as high quality as it is, has much in common to an anechoic chamber and probably it is good that it isn’t. The former is good for testing, the latter for listening. Thanks.

@tonywinga Yes, trying to prove a negative. Amir is a classless act which he has proven on this site. Schooling, not educating.

@crymeanaudioriver You can’t stop yourself as the arbiter of all audio knowledge. My reference to my wife was clearly that she has become accustomed to listening to the sound of my system over the decades and now enjoys it immensely. She is brilliant and has memorized the lyrics to at least 1000 pop/rock songs. I do not comprehend the analogy of listening loud and shouting at low volume levels. I am certainly not a genius but have 2 BAs, JD, MPA etc and took physics courses at UCLA. My wife was a bio-chem major at Stoneybrook and has very deep comprehension of mathematics. We are not uneducated "noobs." It took a long road to obtain high end sound as I had mid-fi sound for most of my life.

I am constantly learning, it is my nature and in my religion. You are a fool with your analysis/accusation.

Yes, I noticed Amir has shut down his opposition site and apparently has vanished from this board. That is his nature. (Although I must admit I have spent more time than I had anticipated on this topic, due to a great part for Amir and his minions coming to this site to basically attack us and Audiogon).

I want to thank the Audiogon moderator for permitting this forum to continue and expose the narrowmindedness of the "objectivist" measurement is the gold standard for determining audio equipment quality.  The ASR site/Amir has not extended a mutual openness to permitting our members from participating on their rebuttal forum or their site. 

@prof I agree with you there. As I have stated, equipment should be selected based on one’s personal preference, engagement with the music. It should be listened to in "a system" "in a room" (preferably the room the music is to be heard). Typically, this means one’s own audio equipment in one’s home.

One of my audio dealers told me a story about hearing a pair of ($40,000) speakers at an audio show. He thought they were fantastic and purchased them. He brought them home and found out that he disliked them with his system in him room. He vowed never to buy speakers based on a show again and cautioned me not to do the same.

@nonoise +10 Amir acknowledged that I have superior experience in performing and recording in major venues. @crymeanaudioriver has a lesser view of me. Too bad.

@prof  Early on, the Audiogon moderator shut down the site and I petitioned him/her to reopen it.  This led to some great posts by members and unfortunately, attacks from ASR members with Amir's I'm always right type comments (and we are wrong/delusional).  

I have all tube systems for over 50 years (which has evolved over time).  I had a tube output CD player for 15 years.  I now have an all solid state digital CD playback system.  I have heard outstanding solid state based systems.  I chose what sounds best and synergistic in my room(s) without breaking the bank.  My listening room   

As to Amir closing down threads unrelated to equipment discussion, he let his opposing forum go for about 291 posts on 15 pages.  Quite a long time in my opinion.   As to some other ASR forums, I noted that some of the few (post introduction/ban) I've read go far astray off topic into hunting, race car driving, drug use (that's where an anti-social comment was made about offing the neighbors), vacations, etc., although usually coming back on topic.  It is just not illuminating for me to read.  ASR apparently would not inform me of equipment choices (including cables and tweaks) that would be consonant with my current listening preferences.

Every week on Saturday, I view Audiogon's latest and most popular posts, occasionally do a post or word search to find an interesting new topic.  

Very nice posts above.  

As to equipment or a system which imparts the same sonic signature on every piece of music statement, unfortunately, I’ve heard local high end/high cost systems that do just that and I get listeners fatigue and bored.

My two systems (and three friends systems) reproduce music whereby every recording is a surprise in sound. I get a jolt from well recorded music from the freshness of the sound. That’s why I am anxious to get to hear my system when I can. The sound and music captures me. I am addicted to music since before I could talk at 2 years old.

My choice of speakers after two decades of unsatisfying five sets of electrostat speakers came down to price and quality. I purchased used speakers which I saw used in two sound studios I was appraising, used by three friends and used to evaluate LPs for sale by Better Records. I’ve had them for 20 years. Only sounded better as the rest of the system and room improved. Well, it will cost $25K to $50K for me to replace my main speakers, so I’m not pulling the plug yet. Another major concern is that if I purchase a boutique speaker and the parts or manufacturer become unavailable for repair-then an I have very expensive boat anchors.

@rtorchia Most of the subjectivists here, like the OP, are pleased with the components they own and that is very good. You like what you hear which is all anyone can ask. So what ASR says about your stereo shouldn’t bother you. If I had some of these systems, all connected with the most expensive and exotic cables, I’d sit back and enjoy the music, and refrain from insulting Amir, ASR, and most of all science.

You are correct, what Amir says about my system doesn't bother me.  It is his defamatory twisting, out of context statements about me in this forum and his cohorts at ASR.   I didn't call him a fraud like so many at his site call so many high end companies/owners.   I do consult measurements when/where they are available and relevant.  I generally do not want a speaker that is difficult to drive if it has a combination of low efficiency and low impedance with high phase angles.  I don't want a speaker with a ragged frequency response.  I don't want an amp that has rapidly increasing distortion into easy loads (or anything above 3% THD).  There are so many other factors.  I am not a subjectivist or objectivist.   I will not purchase gear based on tests alone.  Just because I purchase gear only after auditioning it does not make me a subjectivist either.   

My next post will give you an indication of what I consider dubious (except I've actually heard/encountered most of these products).  

@prof  Well, something about power cords not being cast as unimportant in your prior post to electrical engineers is WRONG!   My 3 year neighbor who has an expensive high end system including YG Sonja 2.3s, Meridian Ultradac, Audio Research SP28, etc and good other cabling, computer based listing using CDs transferred to it thought the same as you as to power cords.   He was an electrical engineer for 30+ years.  He used Pangea power cords on his equipment.  The sound was not good. Bass frequencies were a mess.  The reproduction of the frequency range was very ragged with some frequencies standing out and some recessed.  Hearing a bass played on his system was awful.  

I lent him an Empress ($300) 7 year old GroverHuffman power cable for his amp.  He was blown away.  The bass started to sound coherent.  He still had this spacey sound, undefined highs.  He knows how good my lower cost system is.  He purchased six GroverHuffman Pharoah power cables ($750 each) to replace all his Pangeas.

I now enjoy going over to his home and listening to music.  He is up to 2 am like me listening.  The system is truly high end now.   He still has no explanation why electricity in power cables differ, only that different design and material cables work there too.   

This is not an ad for a specific cable.  It is a rebuttal to anyone who says electrical engineers don't see a difference in power cables. 

I went back yesterday and read some ASR forums that actually had intelligent posts concerning the audio market, cable opinion by John Dunlavy, COG (cost of goods) versus sale price, Chinese manufacturing capabilities (quantity versus quality wherein either can be made but most retailers find quantity economically superior).   Again, these forums devolve into banal and non-sequitur discussions including pages on pizzas and toppings, vacations, etc.   Analogies to cars was interesting.  So, I conclude that there are interesting forums with good information (that I already knew) but are very tough to get through because of the non-topic posts and remarks

@rtorchia You are correct. My initial post was combative. I was treated like dirt and felt others should share their experiences. I think this forum accomplished that. I get upset when defamed and having my words taken out of context and perverted. Just read my last post to see I am open minded.

@prof Just because we my friend did not conduct a blind test or measure the differences doesn’t mean the results don’t exist. That’s the Amir way of things, if it doesn't measure, it doesn't exist. The before and after were SO extraordinarily different, anyone who has good hearing could tell. It’s an anecdote but unless you think he and I and our friends who now enjoy his system are fools and self-delusional, it is valid. If you have a high end system (I didn’t say cost), try a Pangea power cable into your amp or pre-amp and then borrow a moderate priced or high end cable (that’s the difficult part-finding a reputable good cable) and compare. The Pangea maybe worse than using some computer IECs. It’s just terrible (and not only in his system, but in two other friends who long ago tried it in theirs).

Here are a few audio(?) products that are either close to irrelevant or not a good value/can be substituted at 90% or less the price.

1. McIntosh LB200 Light Box $1500.  Not an audio product.  99% irrelevant.  Useful for vanity purposes.

2.  Furutech DeMaga LP demagnatizer $3300.  Furutech's own Destat III at $300 does the same thing.  So do $100 demag guns.  Heard it, no difference than Destat III. 

Hint: Brushing one's tonearm prior to play, one swipe, with an anti-static record brush can be effective for free and is quick.

3.  DS Audio’s ES 001 Eccentricity Detection Stabilizer $6000  For the fastidious LP listener who will spend more time centering his LP than listening.  It is not easy to use and the results can be beneficial, but at what cost to one's time?  

4. Shun Mook LP Clamp $5600  Heard on a high end system (Wilson Audio Alexandria Xlf, McIntosh MC 1000s, DS Master 1 cartridge, etc.)   Yes, all four of us heard a positive benefit from using this versus not using a clamp.  Was it worth it?  Not to any of us.  The owner is a audio reviewer.  Actually, the system was extremely resolving with fantastic bass and dynamics.  But, it was fatiguing to listen to after an hour.  

These are just a few examples where dubious value of high end products exists. 

As to centering LPs, a turntable that was designed to do that were a Nakamichi TX 1000 from the 1980s as I recall. I heard it at Beverly Stereo back then.  It sounded great.  I could not afford it then.  

@prof Yes, we do have a lot in common. However, if you read all my posts, I am a 20+ year beta tester for a boutique cable manufacturer who is devote about not ripping off customers (under $1000 for his best cables and about $350 for his lesser ones). He loses sales because they don’t sell for more/audiofool anticipation that more expensive equals better.  (He is not a good businessman, but a genius just the same-it takes him two hours to manufacture a pair of ICs or power cables).

In that vein, I have auditioned and/or tried many high end manufacturer cables and found most of them color the sound, alter the sound or just sound bad (e.g. very expensive, giant magnet in line High Fidelity cables-defunct finally although there are still many adherents that they are great). Some just sound better than others. But at what price?

The Pangea power cables my friend used on his high end system are both cheap and sound bad on three systems. He (and his music friends) are elated that his system sounds like the $1/2 million he said he spent on it. He kept changing amps because he thought there was something wrong with his sound but couldn’t point to it. He tried $60,000 D’Agostino amps and lost $22K reselling that. Once he heard just one power cable on his PS Audio BHK250 and his redesigned Dynaco 70 (radical) he was convinced that power cables make a difference, contrary to his prior stubborn belief that they don’t.

That is not proof but coming from me, a guy whose tried and heard so many power cables, should have some credence. I also have a great deal of recording and mastering experience as I’ve noted. My friend’s system had a radically, out of balance sounding frequency response and weird ambiance/soundstaging. He gladly enjoys company (72) and you are welcome to hear his (and my) system.

@kota1 Thank you Kota1.  I appreciate your reading my elaborate responses.

Here's a Darko sponsored video that I have problems with (the video, not Darko)   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3QHfH9Nho&t=1833s  

I posted these questions after viewing it: 

I don't know if Darko can answer some questions that I ponder as I watched this video. I note that the elaborate construction of the cable is evident.

However, it isn't manufactured in a clean room, the cable is exposed to the elements and everyone is touching the cable with their bare hands. I don't know if contaminants will affect the sound (probably not) but could effect its' longevity.

Are the copper elements really of lower quality (OFC only) or are they 6N (for the price it would appear higher quality wire would be used, unless the design eliminates the necessity of high end wire).

The other question is more personal, why does the engineer have maroon(?) colored finger nail polish. I know it's personal, but does he have a reason or is it a personal fashion statement? I am not casting aspersions, just curious as I don't see that often (especially the strong color).    

This is some strange company based on this video in my opinion.  Talk about no measurements!

I own Cardas ultra-silver phono cable in my modded SME IV arm since 1989.  The thinnest internal phono cable I've ever seen (and requires magnification and tiny forceps to solder the pins to).  Sounds great though.  

@prof I admit that my friends and I are either lazy in your opinion or don't care to measure/take scientific accounting of why our equipment is sonically different from other equipment (cables, tweaks included).  We don't care when we feel it is better/more enjoyable.  If the change is worse, we unplug and disown it.  

I read measurements when available.  One of ASR's long time members writes how he loves Von Schweikert speakers and now owns the VR5.  I don't recall many published measurements of his past or current speaker (or any of the VR5).  There are several published reviews sans measurements.  That didn't stop him from purchasing it and loving it.  

My new forum posted as: 

Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@nonoise and @tantejuut  That's what I have been posting here.  If it is a subtle difference, then yes, my senses can be wrong.  If it is a DRAMATIC difference, not only can my friends with golden hearing, my very educated hearing but also totally equipment uninterested friends and family members can hear the differences.  I invite friends over and they exclaim how wonderful the music sounds (meaning reproduced).  If it weren't for time limits, they would stay all day (2-3 hours is usual).  Covid killed 1.5 years of friends coming over). 

To a few posters today, everything I say is anecdotal and has no relevance because I didn't do blind A/B/X testing to determine the measured differences.   Is that what this hobby (obsession for listening to music) is about?  Maybe it is for some but not for the overwhelming majority of music listeners who are overwhelmingly not audiophiles either.  

Now I think I will begin another forum concerning manufacturers supplying measurements and testing.  WHY DON'T THEY?  

@prof Do you believe that power cables can exert different sonic sound to a system, or they are not capable of a difference or significant difference.

My enigineer friend’s example of Pangea power cable versus GroverHuffman power cable is based not only on subjective hearing but also knowing the manufacturing process of those cables. The Pangea lacks the current capability and isolation of the GroverHuffman cable. The latter has a triple powdered metal suspended in a glue for the RF/EMI shield encased in a silver shield and then in a faraday cage-like copper shield. It has 2 mil thick, embossed all copper elements in an air core dielectric which he owns a patent on. After trying Furutech, Oyide and several other high end connectors, some Taiwanese all copper connectors were chosen as they did not impart a "brighter" sound for their brass, silver and rhodium connectors. Luckily he found copper connectors which did not get loose over time and had excellent grip. I don’t know if they are OFC or 6N. It was also determined that using these off-brand connectors were cost effective and permitted the cables to be sold at a reasonable price (some Furutech connectors can cost as much as the rest of the cable components or more). Every component of his cables was selected from listening to the results of various materials.

Cut open a Pangea 9 SE Mk II cable and you’ll find Cardas Grade One Copper, OFC copper, and Litz wire copper conductors. Quote-Counter-spiraled conductors offer superior noise rejection, and the triple-shielded design provides high-current noise isolation. The large-diameter 7-AWG construction boasts seven-way multi-gauge geometry optimized for high-current delivery of 50/60 Hz AC power. The solid-blade 24k gold-plated copper AC contacts provide superior electrical contact end quote. The triple-shield is not very sophisticated and the counter spiral, Litz design could or may not be the reason for the poor sound. Regardless, at least I know what the physical differences in the cables are. The difference in sound was extreme with the Pangea ruining a very high end system of nearly $1/2 million.

@fair - Welcome to my world and the Audiogon forum.  Very interesting theories on cable heat sink and antenna attributes which can be reduced or eliminated.  That's one of the reasons I read Audiogon forums.  

@djones51 Very likely.  Especially cable and tweak manufacturers. 

Mitch2 gives some examples why just in the specs on the other forum.  Problem is that even the ASR recommended speaker manufacturers don't reveal test measurements and rely on reviewers. Revel speakers typically measures great, why don't they publish their tests?  

@laoman - Yes. Exactly my feeling. 

I noted some overvalued and inconsequential examples of tweaks earlier in this forum that no one commented on. Of course they were commented on on ASR. My friends and I did hear the Shun Mook LP Clamp $5600. In that system which is high end, it did improve the sound but the system itself while exhibiting great resolution, dynamics, sweet tonal qualities was just fatiguing. Maybe it was too forward, in your face sound. I don’t remember exactly but it was too much! As to the clamp, we didn’t think it was worth the money. But I wouldn’t criminalize the manufacturer as defrauding the public as ASR members would probably concur to do.

Multiple people including myself experiencing a difference in sound using so called "magic wood" giving one "special sound" is not what I was stating.  That we heard a small improvement versus no clamp and some expensive metal clamp (maybe Stillpoints or Synergistic Research) in it's use was obvious, in that system in that room.  At that price, we all considered it (except for the owner of it) ridiculous.  Just like the DS Audio LP centering device.  Yes, it does work but at what cost in money, time and aggravation?  I consider both unnecessary tweaks.  

I too was taken with tweaky products and equipment. Luckily, most of them were only auditioned and returned. The biggest loss versus cost was a Muse Signature 9 SE CD player $3800, sold for $550 years later. Touted by my late audio dealer who was an expert in analog and had some very good product lines, I bought it and disliked it for a few 100 hours, then stopped listening to it. For some reason, it sounded like the beginning and ending transients were lopped off and the remote was a horror. I went back to listening to older Sony CD players and a new Marantz CD 63. Then the EAR Acute for 15 years.

As to tweaks, so many only made a subliminal difference I returned them as not worth it. When I moved into my new high end listening room, I removed the bandaid subtle "kitchen magnet" products from my system. They reduced dynamics and appeared to add distortion.

My favorite tweak is the Shakti Hallograph, an acoustic tweak. Not subtle at all.  It works wonders with my speakers but maybe won't be necessary with high end Von Schweikert speakers I want to eventually purchase with their great imaging, timing and soundstage coherence for very wide listening area. 

I have extensively read magazines, now internet sites, about audio equipment. I don’t believe most of them (especially cable reviews). My favorites were from J.Gordon Holt, but that was a long time ago. Today, with so many reviewers not using classical or jazz to audition equipment, I cannot get a sense of what the reviewer is hearing from a modern recording. I like when sound comparisons are made between multiple pieces of equipment.

I know that even many high end cable manufacturers do not state what the difference in sound will be using one or another of their cables. Synergistic Research, from Foundation to SRX, 6 lines of cable, what difference will I hear moving up or down? Ansuz cables-"the more transparent, holistic and authentic the resulting soundstage. The resulting sound is even more refined, more spacious and truly amazing." What does that tell me, that’s it’s just better? Masterbuilt cables-so little information that it is just based on their price. Yet I’ve heard these three lines sound great in high end systems. Maybe they only work well in those systems. Transparent, Audioquest, Cardas, Nordost, Crystal Cable, Shunyata, etc. etc. There is just too little information, all marketing and puffery. Many do give me a good idea about their construction such as SR. I want more information to try them, certainly don’t want to buy them without trying them.

@prof Thank you for the lead. I forgot about this head to head speaker comparison. I heard the Joseph’s and the Harbeth 40.1s and Herb’s description is right on target. I prefer the Harbeth sound (possibly because I have over 10,000 opera/classical vocal LPs/CDs and 78s) for voice. Fortunately, my speakers are somewhere in the middle of these two with big, deep bass as well (six drivers/3 12" woofers each).  

Did you decide on the Devore O/96 because it was an amalgam of those two speakers that you previously owned? I only heard Devores (O/93 or O/96) under audio show conditions and while it was pleasant, it didn’t excite me (the room was very wide and I have no recollection of the other equipment). Your description makes me want to hear them again in a better setting.   All 3 speakers you own/owned are also moderately priced and as two ways, maintain excellent coherence and imaging. 

I have under 100 bongo jazz and pop LPs/CDs and 1000+ jazz recordings commonly featuring drums . As my equipment got better, I could also relate to hearing the skins and feeling the snap plus the shimmering of cymbals. Very exciting. I know what you’re feeling.

@fair +10  I knew about the centrifugal forces which create a "bulge" in the earth's center since the 1970s.  It is considered an oblate ellipsoid rather than a perfect sphere according to scientists.  Arguing against that is considered like stating the earth is flat.  The latter statement of the earth ASR members agree on.  The former statement of the earth, apparently they do not.  And are they nasty denying it without any facts I bet in their denunciation.  Hence, I will not rejoin ASR under a fake name as it doesn't matter after my rude introduction and banishment by Amir.  

May they keep their religion far away from us.  

@westcoastaudiophile  Here it is: Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@noske That's a laugh.  Criticizing the poor quality of the nakedness.  I'm still laughing.

@russ69 Maybe 85%-90% sounds right.  There are many lower efficiency, low impedance, high phase angle speakers but so many more are easy to drive (horn loaded, Tannoy's, etc.) with only one set of difficult parameters (e.g. Harbeth's-low efficiency, nominal easy impedances, my Legacys with high efficiency, lower impedances).  The Apogees and MBL speakers are anomalies whereas common Maggies just need power).

Atkinson's Stereophile measurements are not comprehensive.  I do prefer some relevant measurements he/they provide compared to no measurements from The Absolute Sound which reads entirely as subjectivist reviews.  

I personally know of a part time reviewer who solicited expensive high end gear to review, was given it, kept it and resold it after reviewing it.  

When I was in my teens to early 30s, I relied upon audio dealers in purchasing equipment. There were virtually no boutique cabling companies Some major brands started by the end of 1970s. I was not content with the sound of my system and kept changing speakers and amps. By 1998, I was financially capable to invest in higher end equipment and cabling.  I did spend money on a modded SME IV/VPI 19 in 1989 and in the 90s on Audio Research SP 14 & Classic 60 amp. 

I had read audio magazines since the early 70s. I found so many reviews just wrong in the mainstream mags. Tons of feedback on the "new" solid state gear sounded bad compared to the 50’s and 60’s tube gear. High school friends wanted to show off their 125 watt or 200 watt Pioneer receivers with JBL and Cerwin Vega speakers and I wanted to run from the sound. I purchased Yamaha lower powered gear which I thought was more musical sounding. I didn’t get into tube gear until law school and never looked back.

As noted, I heard (until Covid), 1000s of live performances from my 100s of recordings, performances to season opera tickets (400-500 live opera alone).  I seek to reproduce the most realistic sound of those venues and my large music collection.  I've only encountered the total immersive experience with Von Schweikert Ultra 9 and 11 speakers in $1+ million system at two shows.  I've heard some rather good systems but none that "do it all" and sound like the mic feed (VS claims it's their reverse mic feed design of the speaker).     

My own main system does get close recorded small combo jazz right where the instruments sound live, like they are in my room playing.  Cymbals could be a little bigger but the drums are real sounding (my speakers are rolled off in the highs with a soft dome lower and ribbon upper tweeters).  My friend's YG Sonja 2.3s sound great but not as realistic, as in the room musicians performing, rather his system sets back musicians a distance.  Pleasant but not realistic.   

It's taken me a lifetime to get sound where I'm at now and the piece de resistance would be a high end full range speaker that does it all. 

It is common now for full range speakers to have a narrow footprint for most homes and your set up requires it.  

Black and white film on a screen often exhibits a shimmering effect which is captivating.  We watch many 30's and 40's films and great movies can be mesmerizing with that effect.  It's not 3D and it's not color but what a great experience.