Are there other people like me ? Amazed by their low cost system :)

Interesting price...Thanks jayctoy..

have you already compared with something else ?

Thanks chiadrum ... and jmarini2

 

This will surely help others in their journey... welcome to Audiogon

my best 😊

 

This thread is not about me even if i make remarks and thank those who gave their experience with relative low cost system...

If you read it  i ask others testimonies in their "similar"  audio journey and about their own experience of the their relative  S.Q. /low cost ratio... Then it is not about my low cost system...

Now you are not in the obligation to read my answers... Read others people posts here ... It is informative and enlightening precisely because it does not comes from me and is intended for beginners also...

Then any  innuendo about my posts count is just that : an innuendo ...

Thanks anyway for your "due respect"...😊

And instead of asking people to quit creating their  thread pass over their thread if you are not interested, i do it each day...... Is it not more  not only logical  but more meaningful  , i say that as an added benefit for your next posts about anyone else here creating a thread  ? 😊

 

 

But enough already about your low cost system. That horse has been beaten to death, and the word count is overwhelming.

 

 

Low cost here is a relative notion i refuse to precise...

In my exemple above i spoke about Bill Gates reading my advices about embeddings controls of the mechanical, electrical and acoustical dimensions and discovering that a 88,000 bucks system almost rival his one million bucks system...😁 For sure it is an audio parable... 😊

For him 88,000 is very low cost...It is peanuts...

For us reading this we understand that before upgrading we must learn how to realize our dream at a favorable ratio in the scale S.Q. /price when going with our budget which is different for everyone...

But as i said the minimal acoustical threshold of satisfaction and level is characterized by the same acoustics factors at play : timbre, distortion, spatial qualities of the sound and of the soundfield and immersiveness grosso modo... There is many others secondary factors and qualities which are all important and they all must manifested together some balance ratio for an optimized perceptive experience of any stereo recordings..

This is what matter , the knowledge behind these factors and their controls multidimensional parameters...

It is why speaking of price tags has absolutely almost no meaning in audio... The common place fact that better design cost more is only that a common place fact which is useless if we dont learn how to embed rightfully any system at any price to begin with once synergy between some chosen gear is reach for sure...No embeddings controls will replace synergy and vice versa.

 

 

Then your post is very useful and can reveal that acoustic happiness can be done at this price : 6,600 bucks and we can be satisfied with no frustration at this level...

This does not means that we cannot do better ... Toward a way greater results with more money or toward a better or equal results with less money ... ( my 2 different systems were 1000 bucks value speakers and headphone included and unbeatable in my opinion with less money and hard to beat even with some relatively costlier system at my level compared to my 1000 bucks......With no limit budget or even a few times bigger it is if not easy possible to beat me...( my own dreamed upgrade system will be 15,000 bucks but i felt no frustration because i am already at the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold anyway )

The goal is with your example and your post some beginners will begin to think BEFORE throwing money uselessly ... Then thanks for your post...

 

In a way my thread is the opposite of most thread... We think less often about a way to have more with less money invested for more joy ... Most audio thread started with some frustation and a search for a costlier upgrades...No thinking about homemade devices and tweaks and about embeddings method seems necessary BEFORE upgrading, which resulted in a frustration starting an upgrading race ...

Audiophiles subjectivist as objecvtivists focus on gear qualities or measures make us forgot acoustics and psychoacoustics and mechanical and electrical embeddings controls. What was called "tweaks" in the past.

I dont like this word because embeddings controls are more than just "tweaks" and they are not secondary at all but at least as much important as gear synergy choices. At the end they are the most important because learning them save us money and end our frustration with sounds...

 

 

Define "low cost.’Mine, by my reckoning, is high value and reasonable cost;but I couldn’t have afforded any more. And it was actually going out on a limb to get what I wanted and that’s; with a preamp I’ve had for 20 years! so my amp was like $1500, speakers something like $3k, CD Player - that I hardly use anymore but was primary when I bought it 7 years ago or so - $500, streamer $700, cables about $400, stands $500; so about, what, $6600 all-in new? To most people that’s A LOT, to others, it’s being cheap and doesn’t sound good lol. For me, it’s nigh on perfect, certainly for the investment.

My thread intention then i hope it is now clear, was only that : a celebration by some of us about our relative successes in the scale ratio S.Q. /low cost, and the pleasurable occasion to read others explanations about this relative success i called : the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold and level ... 😊

This is also meant to be  an invitation for the beginners to think BEFORE upgrading too prematurely BEFORE trying experiments  or uselessly if they are not in the ideal room condition anyway  ...

 

It is not wrong... 😊

+2 immatthewj

As i said i had a reactive temper... No one is perfect ... But i dont doubt myself ... And i dont need others opinions about my sound experience in my room ... I just like discussing sincerely and reading others similar experience  ...Especially since my retirement ...

Went through a few posts here and the only conclusion I came to is that you are offended by whatever words others choose.

+1 @milpai .

I cannot contradict mapman wise post...

 

😁

 

Most people outside these "high-end" parts would not consider my stuff low cost. For example, I just got a nice deal on a pair of mint Sonus Faber’s from someone locally (compared to other popular options you might read as touted here), but even then still more than most people would ever shell out for a pair of speakers. It’s really not hard at all to get top notch sound for modest cost these days, even with a very modest budget and very high audiophile-level type expectations going in. It just requires doing your homework and a lot of patience perhaps.

If headphones are sufficient to meet one’s needs, you really have it made! Do the homework and find that ~$150 for ear monitors and dongle + an existing Smartphone or tablet with streaming can get you sound that is reference standard by any objective measure quite easily. That would be the absolute lowest cost setup I could identify that is capable of providing reference quality sound. Disclaimer: reference quality may not be to everyone’s liking. That is more a matter of personal preference. In that case, it’s even easier, you just buy whatever sounds good to you and that’s all that matters.

Your post is a stunning example for all... Congratulations! and my thanks for your experience communication and invitation... ... I wish i could go alas! ...It will be an encouragement  for beginners to think a bit  and experimented a bit BEFORE upgrading too rapidly ...

My best to you ...

So then, with less than $6K invested (using a 22 year old Yamaha RX-Z9 receiver, in "Pure Direct" mode, purchased new with over 30K hours on it now), plus countless hours of speaker development/tweaking (in the room they are used in), and an Oppo95 SACD...,

When people who do listen to systems say it sounds better than some six figure systems they’ve heard, we’ve met the goal?

I’ve never heard a system that throws a soundstage so big and precise, and I’ve heard Magicos, Focal, etc. and I have JBL L200/300s, L112s, One-Off Altec Big Red Supers (furniture-grade, 15.5 cu ft ext vol, custom made, tri-amped), Chartwell LS3/5As), and anyone in Orange County, CA is welcome to come by and hear it for themselves

 

You are right... i sometimes (often) overeacted ... 😊😁

But i think you know me perhaps better than me  ... 😊

 

Then read me with no projected suspicions about my thread intention ...Dont use innuendos.

Relax.

 

😉

I am married too ...My wife is not audiophile as i am but more a musician which alas! i am not ( the reason appear to me late in life i perceived more sound as a story and by forms dynamic with my eyes than as sound isolated tones, music is more movies moving forms than sound as tones for me in a way , it is why acoustics interested me so much )...

She was persuaded i was completely mad in a madhouse when she observed my acoustic room slow construction and changed his mind listening to it at the end...

Anyway we are often in love with wiser woman who think we must be "mad" but may be anyway useful husband ... 😉 I married her after writing his philosophy examination the night before giving it and i am still very proud of the maximum grade she received finally after one hour questioning for plagiary which was disproved because i briefed her before the oral examination and she had a good memory and are very bright soul ... 😊 We are together since that 50 years ago ... She was never interested in philosophy by the way but by linguistic. she studies two languages right now ...

By the way audiophile experience is not about perfect sound at all cost, it is about the best sound ratio for money invested with the help of basic knowledge ...

Anything else is ignorance mixed with deep pocket and consumerism marketing ..

If i had budget for sure i will add more higher cost gear but i will do it in the samw way i do it with less costly gear, acoustics and psychoacoustics, and others embeddings controls dont change ... And it will be for sure maximal acoustic satisfaction but anybody can be in ectasy with minimal acoustic satisfaction...

Why ?

Because minimal and maximal satisfaction resulted from a BALANCE between acoustic factors... But with more high end gear designed pieces some limitations disapear and the balance is renewed on a higher acoustic level ...

The key concept is balance...

In the two cases the goal is the same : retrieving the original various acoustics recorded trade off from any albums perceived as it was in our system/room ...

i had it but i dont doubt that mikelavigne system do it better... And i know why it is such... It is why i know exactly what pieces of my system to upgrade first if i want how to embed it and with the right pieces of gear...

As stated by mikelavigne wise audio experience : audiophilia is more about a  state of mind than about price tags...

 

 

 

@mahgister Thank you, I actually enjoy the challenges and doing more with less$$$$ is quite gratifying. I also have a wife that would kill me if I spent even $120k on my systems. Personally we enjoy doing charitable work, traveling, will have more disposable income once our last two graduates university, one in May!,

This post will be informative to any beginners...Thanks to you

...

In fact i read the same kind of post 12 years ago when i was in desperation and frustration because i did not have the money to buy a high end costly system...

Then reading a similar posters saying the same things i decide to study basic acoustical,electrical and mechanical principles and ideas, and i begun experimenting with what i have as gear pieces , instead of dreaming about high end gear reviews and entereing in despair because i would never been able to affford it anyway,...

I discovered then what i must do slowly... One experiments at a time ...I succeeded as you did... For + or - the same reason...😊 Basic principle may varied but do not change...

After I had the opportunity to listen to an $800K system in an extremely well engineered listening environment, then came home and listened to my $60K system in my small well treated listening space, I was grinning from ear to ear. I have done well for my audio needs and desires. That trip was validation for me.

 

 

For sure i admire you and i believe you...

because i did the same in my own way...

Creativity and acoustics matter for happiness ... Anything else is budget limits and self doubts by ignorance and marketing conditioning ...

 

It is fun to have a joyful celebrating and explaining "why we are happy"  thread !

 

😋

In answer to the question, Yes! I have always been proud of putting together good sounding systems for comparatively low $$$. I have rarely bought new equipment, kept current thru the audio press, but, most importantly, as a musician I know what instruments and singers sound like live. That has always been my benchmark.

I will admit that my current system has cost more than most people would spend. But not too much more. I couldn’t afford this rig new. Musicians I’ve had in to hear it - jaws drop.

I do like to hear other “fellow travelers’” systems. Many are stunning. In the end, my ears are happy. It’s fun to tweak the room and speaker positioning to find that little bit more. Can’t do the “Full Mahgister” 😉 but still interesting.

 

All I said was, "Someone who was certain they were satisfied might not be tempted to ask this question." Pretty benign statement. Easy to agree with. No one here is certain. You’re not certain. I’m not certain. I can admit that. The length of your reply speaks volumes.

 

 

The level of your own misreading speak volume: i am certain than i am happy acoustically yes...😊 I am certain that better experience than mine exist over my own acoustic ectasy yes..😂.But mine is enough for me...😎And some others feel the same and i am curious about their reasons and their systems ...I stated my own very precise reasons to be happy with what i have ...

 

Then read me with no projected suspicions about my thread intention ...Dont use innuendos... Insinuating that opening this thread suppose self doubts is false and projection of your part. Period. Others than you here claimed the same and you came after repeating this innuendos ... I answered ...Not only i had no doubts about what i said but i am full of pride...I make myself my own acoustic heaven at the best possible cost... I apologize for my excess pride for sure... I am guilty of that...😁

What i said since i am in Audiogon 8 years ago and is resumed in my virtual page title had never changed but was confirmed by all my experiments ... It is clear as water... ...

 

By the way i generally admire all your posts then i apologize to be so direct and straight in my answer to you ... 😊

phillyspecial

6 posts

03-06-2024 at 07:23am

"And BTW, who is this Jay guy you are referring to?"

@yogiboy I think he must be referring to a reviewer on YT who posts videos as Jay’s Iyagi. For example:

 

 

 

 

When i spoke about Jay i spoke about this Jay :

( the reason i spoke about him is the fact of his honesty and he knows a lot about high end gear and in this video he spoke about the fundamental importance of acoustics here room acoustic...He goes in his reviews on audiogon before his youtube  without room dedicated acoustics for years though and discovered his importance lately )

Acoustics rule audio acoustic perception as much as the gear design ... Thats my point... Nevermind the price paid you cannot optimize your gear  and put it at their optimal peak level of quality without acoustics, without electrical grid of the house and room  and connectors and cables workings controls   and without resonance and vibrations controls  and at the end unbeknowst to most  you cannot go  without crosstalk controls with Dr. Choueiri filters design ...And you cannot do without psychoacoustics measurements either... 😊

 

 

 

 

You are so right that i invite people to meditate your post observations...

Thanks for Chesky very astute observation with which i am in complete approval and understanding... And he knows way better than me then i am glad to be confirmed on this opinion... Not because i had doubts about it. i studied acoustics enough to know he is right. but it is fun to not be alone and be in the same circle of opinions as a reputed musician and acoustician  ...Thanks to you ...

I’m with you @mahgister . I have found that the difference between a good system and a great system as far less than the difference between a good room and a bad room, or a good recording and a bad recording.

I recently saw an interview on the audiophiliac with David Chesky, a musician, producer, and record company owner. And he said something to the effect that recordings can be like a photo with extra vivid colors, which I took to mean that they can be kind of an enhanced reality. I agree with this. Most live music actually has rather subpar sound and seldom sets off aural fireworks for me. The performance and the music itself are the focus. Chesky also suggested that recorded music is essentially an artificial experience that can be crafted in many different ways. All of this is good to bear in mind when we start to get too carried away, telling ourselves that we are on a search for “truth”.

 

Someone who was certain they were satisfied might not be tempted to ask this question.

 

We are a family and we speak with one another...😊

I am curious about others experience with their relatively low cost system...

I just had Bill Gates on the phone yesterday...Yes he phoned me ...He has read my audiogon posts😉

Guess what ? He just sold his more than one million dollars system and just bought a ridiculously cheaper system valued to 88,000 bucks after reading all my posts , he declared that he understand perfectly now how a well embedded system , mechanically, electrically and especially acoustically is not so much far from a more costlier one... And he confirm to me that psychoacoustics at the end matter as much as gear design price tag...

For sure his one million bucks system was slightly better by design but he decided to use the difference in money with his new 88,000 bucks system to serves and help those who suffer from ..... here i must stay silent about those who need help from him ...😁

Then instead of doubting my level of satisfaction as a poster of Audiogon , because it is a philosophical sophistry anyway to ask someone to doubt himself and doubt his satisfaction and pride because he cannot be supposedly completely satisfied enough because we must compared his system with better system and to the best possible on earth which for sure exist ... 😁

Projecting on me your own motives to speak which are your own doubts about yourself and your system, is pure sophistry at worst; at beast erroneous reading about my arguments : the controls of the mechanical,electrical and acoustical embeddings of any piece of gear in their house/room/ears-brain working dimensions matter as much as the price tags of the gear piece to begin with...

Then audiophile minimal acoustical satisfaction state and threshold exist... I am there... It is enough for me... I am satisfied acoustically ...

Some others as mikelavigne for example are on the maximal acoustical satisfaction state and threshold...I dont doubt his superior state of satisfaction .. ( i know enough to know why he is right ) 😊

Why criticizing me then for saying elementary truth and why doubting my intention here , projecting on me your own unsecurities because you dont really understand what you do...

Acoustics with an "s" rule audio, not price tags...Period...

For me there exist two levels of audiophile experience defined by the same acoustics factors general balance : the minimal threshold or the maximal threshold with the same optimization methods in the two cases in the mechanical, electrical and acoustical working dimensions...

For sure my chinese low cost tube amplifier does not compete with atmasphere superior design...

This does not means that when it is well embedded with right synergy with other pieces of gear it will and must be audio trash ... Not at all ... But it is not at all the maximal acoustic level of experience... But trust me it may be the minimal level of acoustical satisfaction ...

Mechanical, electrical and acoustical basic knowledge work and matter as much as design price tags ...

 

😊Well said....thanks...

We are happy people and we had done our best to be there ...

 

So, I love my curated, a.k.a. hodgepodge system. It’s not expensive by high end standards, but I love listening to all genres on it. It’s far from perfect. I get to hear a lot of high dollar systems through my local audio club, and rarely do I feel any regrets about my own system. Does the 6 figure system feeding a pair of Magicos sound better than my rig? Of course it does. But I can listen to that system, go home, fire up my rig, and still enjoy the music. And that’s why I got into the hobby; because I love music. Sure, I drool over expensive gear and have my Lottery winner’s system all picked out. But when I hear a well recorded tune on my system, I really couldn’t wish for more. I am sure my acoustics aren’t ideal, although my room and a/c power are pretty quiet. Others have heard my system. Some liked it, some didn’t. I couldn’t care less.

 it seems we are a little "crowd" of deluded or perhaps "inspired" and "informed" people ...

 

 my Sansui vintage alpha 607 i  do well  for 300 bucks and my AKG K340 for 100 bucks modified are very good... As you i bought vintage pieces because of the ratio S.Q. /low cost...

I am pretty amazed by how much music can come out of vintage and/or inexpensive gear when you get things out of the way (inside) that make them sound worse.

I am also amazed how inexpensive gear can fulfill an intended purpose: musical wallpaper, surround yourself with something(s) familiar, share a tune, provide a musical upgrade over cheap earbuds, etc.  A rough facsimile of a performance is better than no performance in the "right" situation, provided enough rough burrs are filed off.

If you are content with your system, you should really not care for what others think about it.

 

I think some people miss my main points :

Audiophile minimal satisfaction may be enough for most at least for me because of basic knowledge and creativity...

it is not enough to own a 100,000 bucks system... We must learn how to embed it in our house/room for our ears and how to optimize it ... This is my point... This is valid even for a 1000 bucks system optimization as mine is...

We need acoustic , electrical and mechanical basic and this matter as much for S.Q. as high quality design of the gear pieces ( this is my main personal discovery and this does not means that all gear design at all cost levels are equal with one another for sure)

 

I dont care about what people think about my system , if i would have care do you think i would had posted my first virtual pages where i received insults for my room acoustic disposition and my experiments or do you think i would had post my second system gear pieces which are low cost pieces anyway with pride after selling my first house/room ? Do you catch how and why your supposition are completely wrong about me ? 😊

But i care and i am curious about other people experience and opinions about their own low cost system here ... some had already given interesting answers... this was my goal... I never need any approval man... But i like others experience posts ...

I have more pride of my two systems S.Q. ratio/price i myself created at low cost than any system at any cost ( which systems as we can see in others people virtual page  for sure may or  will be better potential S.Q.  by design; only an idiot will claim that my low cost speakers are top of audio, i never claimed that stupidity; but only an idiot will claim that after my modification they are not way better than before as they were in the box ) ... Then take any opinion about my system as i take it myself ... Rain on my duck back ... 🦆

 

High end exist because higher design cost more... This is a common -place fact...Period.

I never contested this fact... It will be relatively easy for me to upgrade my system tomorrow but i dont want to invest 15 times the money i had invested already... My actual system is audiophile level and satisfy me completely with his limitations for sure but no evident acoustic defect, it is a balanced design because of my creativity... ...I explained why above and what i means by that...

 

 

Why then my thread seems so disturbing for some ? 😊

if you dont have a satisfying low cost system to speak about in this thread stay mute instead of accusing me of being unsecure in myself... You are unsecure yourself attacking my motives and intention then dont project that attitude on me...

Audiophile experience is grosso modo defined by acoustic knowledge more than just price tags sorry if you dont know that yet... Dont kill the messenger think twice...

 

Indubitably

We will like a bit more details...if you could ... 😊

 

 

 

interesting post by 61falcon thanks...

As you i discovered that a low cost system can be very good for enjoying music , especially if much of our creativity is invested in it...

I modified completely my low cost speakers, i disliked them a lot after purchase for 10 years as i put them almost in a bin trash or relegated them on a second computer work; now i can live with them without any frustration this is really audiophile for the poor, acoustics basic knowledge helped me a lot here in modifying the rear porthole design completely and the tweeter waveguide + others "tin foil" hat tricks... 

My Tannoy  gold dual concentric which i owned 40 years with a way more refined design never gave me the same enjoyment. Why ?

Because nevermind the price and quality, any speakers must be used in an acoustically optimized way in a room ... Alas! when i had the Tannoy i was knowing nothing about acoustic... My actual 100 bucks small speakers gave me more right now even with a less refine design  because of this knowledge... Even if the design of the Tannoy were  superior in all acoustic factors on paper... Then owning high end speakers is not enough , we must learn how to embed the speakers mechanically, electrically and acoustically ... And this is my main point ...😊

It seems the fact that someone is happy and know why he is happy with a low cost well embedded system hurt some people feeling...

Happily i am not alone in this situation ... It seems ..😊

I invite any other people happy with a relatively low cost system to testify and explain why it is so , if they can do it for the benefit of others...

This will be called a useful and interesting audio rhetoric .... Each case will be different for sure...We are all different...

And this is not a rhetorical fact...

😊

It makes no difference for sure what you will claim about my experience...

As what i will claim about my experience will not change anything about yours either .. We are grown adult and the thread matter is not a technical information question about a piece of specific gear...

But is this means that we cannot discuss about the question i asked because i am being curious about others opinion ?

😊 😊

Are you the arbiter and censor of acceptable thread rhetoric ?

Is any thread here must exist only if the question asked will modify our own experience ?

is it not a bit excessive as demand ?

 

 

Sorry dude but i like people opinions and experiences and some already answered ... And i thank them...

You dont like that?

 

😊

Sorry ....but each one lives here ...

Stay rhetorical...

or explain yourself ...

 

immatthewj

893 posts

03-05-2024 at 06:55pm

What means a Rhetorical question for you ?

A question that you already have answered in your own mind. A question that no other answers will make any difference to you.

What means a Rhetorical question for you ?

I asked other people impressions about their own relatively low cost system and their potential satisfaction ... Some answered to my question which was not rhetorical at all and i thank them for their testimonies ...

when i wrote :

Am i deaf? Am i ignorant of high end ?

It was sarcasm directed toward people like you it seems, whom i know will not like my sincere question and will take it negatively as a claim against their own opinion about what means " high end " and his relation to price and acoustics evaluation  and experience ...

It seems i was right ...😁 You came with this post  i guess will come ...

Some had taken  my questions as sincere one and answered rightfully and i  had thank them ...It is always conforting not being alone even if your are a free spirit...

But it seems you take my questions ONLY as a provocation... You are not even wrong because my claim could be upsetting then i add : am i deaf or am i ignorant of high end ? as a sarcasm...😊 You took the bait...

If you had read me sincerely you will have read the important distinction i made between my low cost system minimal acoustic satisfaction level and threshold and maximal one ... Then there is no pretense in me , only the underlining fact i surmissed and underlined about the importance of electrical, mechanical and acoustical controls of any system/room AT ANY PRICE ...

Then take your rhetorical accusation and keep them with you in the refrigerator ...

We can enjoy relatively good audiophile experience with a relatively low cost system if we know what we do...Even sonic ectasy as i enjoy ...

 

Is it forbidden to ask for other people confirmation about our own experience only because it does not suit your unfounded opinion ?😊

my own opinion is grounded in basic knowledge , it is not a claim throw to the wind , a rhetorical question; it is a question asking also and mainly for what is other people experience ...

 

 

Anybody know that a high end design is better... It is a common place fact...

Not much people know that we can go toward high satisfaction levels with a relatively low cost system... This is not common place  fact  as the other one is ...

Then your innuendos and accusation toward my thread are rhetorical , my answers and claims are not ...

 

After reading the OP and the replies to the OP and then the OP’s response to the replies, I guess this was only a rhetorical question?

 

 

Great post! Thanks

...

Good point that will be useful for low budget people as me ...Thanks

😊

I can't claim my system is low cost but I do have a temporary amp in service now while my new amp is being built.  It is a little 14 lb 2.3 wpc Decware SE84UFO that just does a spectacular job with a sensitive speaker.  list price about $1200.

Jerry

It is my point exactly...

I will only add that many people with no acoustics training save few ready made panels had no idea about the impact of dedicated acoustics...

I have a few secondary systems that are quite low cost and sound very very good...but my higher cost system sounds much better, as it should...though I could be quite happy with a quality connected low cost system...no magic here

It is what i said above and my opinion too... Hearing imply a training musical as well as acoustical... Buying 40 amplifiers means nothing ...

For sure you are right in my book... 😊 Discarding all audiophiles with blind test is as silly as approving all of them ... We must learn how to hear and how to listen all our life...Especially if we are not acousticians or maestros or skilled musicians...

There is a certain caliber of professional out there, i.e., their entire livelihoods on a daily basis are dependent on how trained and astute their ears are. Here is an example of an individual who would make for a good test subject...if vocals are being tested perhaps (would translate to equipment just fine).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH6_Lk9E7gE&t=616s

I am merely a hobbyist musician w.r.t one specific instrument, i.e., my livelihood is not dependent on it. I know many other professional musicians (golden eared dudes) who are extremely skilled at what they do. When a list of such test subjects are compiled, the ASR white coat buffoon running blind tests with some agenda will be put in his place.

Do you really think a group of 70+ year old audiophiles/gear tweakers have the same ability to participate in blind tests like pro musicians and the like? It is simply not possible.

The late Ken Ishiswata could pass blind tests on high enough hires sample rates that no one could discern. Does every forum audiophile have that type of training/hearing? No, he doesn’t

For sure you are right in my book... 😊

Discarding all audiophiles with blind test is as silly as approving all of them ...

We must learn how to hear and how to listen  all our life...Especially if we are not acousticians or maestros or skilled musicians...

 

 

 

 

The buffoon in the white coat getting high n mighty on the linked vid doesn’t seem to understand that there is a big difference in the test subject pool.

For example, i have 5 violins, an instrument i’ve been closely associated with for 40+ years. I could play something on two of them and no one in the room would hear a difference between the 2 instruments. But, i sure as hell can...If you played some violin solos on different equipment, it is fairly easy for me to pin point which is which. Play something else like....some twangy country or Diana Krall squealing away and i could give a rats behind on what i heard or not, failed a blind test or not.

It would be silly to say that every test subject out there is trained the same way, has the same ears. The typical "audiophile" is not the best test subject if you wanna get hardcore with the blind test (play it to the bone).

Marvellous system great creativity,.... Thanks for posting elliottbnewcombjr

I feel less alone.... 😊

Interesting virtual page :

https://forum.audiogon.com/users/elliottbnewcombjr

I don’t have a big budget but that doesn’t mean I can’t have great sound. And if I had to choose between time and money, for what would benefit me more to improve my system, I would choose time (learning, searching, experimenting).

In my opinion you are completely right ...

😊

The pride and joy we must have as the experienced result of our own creativity exceed in duration by far most costlier upgrades... And sometimes as in my case the ultimate upgrade will exceed 15 times my actual 1000 bucks system value ... I dont need it even if it will be better for sure...

Minimal acoustical satisfaction goes a long way... 😊

But many people dont understand what i spoke about...

Because their system is too faulty and a stopgap they cannot know about the minimal and maximal satisfaction threshold differences..

We dont learn that by going to showroom where the room is never optimized , we learn that by learning in our own room experiments...

 

 

The main reason I go to audio shows is so I can have a reference to compare my system to. You get to listen to expensive and professionally tuned systems and determine where your system stands. If you don’t listen to other systems how could you possibly know? Highly recommended.

For sure in my 72 years of life i attend few showrooms and listend to some very good system...

 

One other point... In many cases there seems to be a belief that "if it costs more it must be better". This is completely false. This is where the imagination takes over and people will swear they hear great "jaw dropping" improvements just because it’s expensive.

The best example of this is a blind test in Spain where they had 30 audiophiles do a blind listening test of a $500 front end. A dirt cheap $200 Crown, class D amp, using the cheapest cables vs. a $12,000 front end.

Conclusion of the test: 1/3 picked the cheap system...1/3 picked the expensive system ...1/3 couldn’t tell a difference.

The way a system is embedded matter more most of the times than the price tag of the system...

And most people had no idea what is "timbre" or listener envelopment and sound source width and immersiveness conditions as experienced in a room where you can control the multidimensional parameters related to this acoustic concept and their experience...

You cannot recognize or identify something, being it an acoustic factors among many other one, if you dont have the concept related to the phenomenon you must distinguish and act upon ...

Then a crowd of average people will not do as crowd of acousticians...

We must learn how to hear... We dont know how to hear.... It is an illusion created by marketing piece of gear and assuring the future customers that his choice of the brand was right to begin with because it was " his taste" ... We dont learn how to hear by purchasing 40 amplifiers, dacs and speakers... Sorry...

I discovered that by accident years ago before studying and experimenting with acoustics because i had no money to buy my dreamed high cost gear system then i started experimenting with some acoustic concepts...

To reach satisfaction i learned by these accidental and planned experiments and acoustic reading how to hear and what to hear and how to modify it varying some parameters in the room or in the system pieces...

There is no other way.... purchasing will give you a possible better design but not necessarily a better experience on all counts...

By the way as suggested by this video, i dont accept the idea that all audiophile claims are placebos and illusions as the objectivist test obsessed crowd claim...

System design differences matter too ... We must pay for better design... it is a common place fact...

But we must learn how to hear and what to hear... Most audiophiles as i was dont...It is necessary to experiment with the SAME PIECES OF GEAR for a long time if the gear synergy is there to begin with for sure and we must learn how to optimize it mechanically, electrically and acoustically to do this... If you change gear each 6 months it is impossible to learn ...😁 Learning about the difference between two amplifiers is not "learning acoustic experience" it is learning about design branded name ...Sellers must learn that, acoustician has no need to learn about 100 different amplifiers... 😊 I dont either... If i wanted to upgrade i will analyse  the litterature concerning a better possible pieces of gear...I did that for my pieces of gear with success...

 

 

It has to do with what your goals are. If you just want a system that gives you good sound and conveys the emotional content of the music, then you don’t really need to spend that much money.

You are completely right here....That was my goal....To be more precise i wanted a system/room able to give me the acoustic experience of each recording space of any album as it was in three dimensions as if the speakers never existed... I succeeded in my first acoustic room completely ...

In my second acoustic smaller corner in my second home i succeeded partially because of the speakers size, but nevermind, it is good enough to reach almost ectasy , i compensated by creating a satisfying headphone system too this time to add too it...

My headphone system is TOP and gave me an out of the head speakers experience with deep bass and natural timbre ( i always disliked headphones by the way then to pick the right one at low cost and learn how to modify it and optimize it is not easy at all , it takes me years and 9 headphones trials ) ... 😊

If you want a system that gives you great sound, impresses you every time you listen, BLOWS AWAY other listeners and looks impressive, then you’ll have to spend larger amounts of money. Even here the definition of large money is relative

 

But you are not completely right here, the few people who listened my system were if not blown away because of the crazyness of my first acoustic room (100 tuned resonators and many other homemade devices) were impressed by the sound experience and the low cost of my system...

knowledge and experiments takes us a long way it seems...

In the opposite...

If i had the money, i will had a dedicated room as i had and as i have now ( a smaller one though this time ) and a system with no cost limit...

But i am not at all frustrated and i am in bliss with what i have...

Why ?

Because i know nevermind the cost of the system how to use acoustic, mechanical and electrical basic to reach the minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold, where i am now or if the money were unlimited i will target the maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold... These two thresholds had one thing in common : a rightfull experienced acoustic balance between all measurable acoustics factors...

 

Jay is the most known high end reviewer of audiogon... An honest person in my opinion ...

Then not knowing the difference between these two acoustic threshold of satisfaction i spoke about and not knowing the necessary SAME BASIC KNOWLEDGE which will be necessary to reach them , which is the same exact knowledge , you accused me, without any malicious intent for sure, but by ignorance of despising High end products... Which only a fool can do , because even if pricing is debatable about high end , we must pay for qualitative superior deesign, period... But qualitative high end design need the same basic knowledge as low cost system to be installed and implemented the right way to reach the maximum acoustical satisfaction threshold anyway...

Thank you for your kindness toward me... i love discussion though...😁😊

I am a retired old fool ...Then i had the time to learn since my retirement doing it full time...My dream was listening music with no sound frustration but not much money to invest only homemade solutions and time and a free room to use for experiments... I succeeded. And my post are here to motivate people creativity, nevermind their system price or quality level...If i could do it anyone can... But it is impossible without learning basic acoustics concepts...

Sometimes many years ago now i understood why i was frustrated: the reason is our journey is about studying and experimenting , not a race to purchase to forgot and erase our frustrations about our system actual acoustic state ...

I was right , i am no more frustrated... 😊

the minimal satisfaction acoustic threshold is not a stopgap by the way compared to the maximal one...

The reason is simple . The maximal threshold and the minimal one are an acoustically balanced experience between all factors in their own compared acoustic ratio, even if the maximal one exceed in refinement the minimal one for sure...You cannot rival a Revel speakers set well embedded in his room with my modified small cost speakers so good they are and they are ...Only an idiot can claim that and i am not one... I dont even need to listen to Revel speakers to know that... I know how to embed ANY speakers...

Understanding what is the relative balance between all acoustic factors at play  as they can be experienced in a room dedicated to the speakers and specific ears is key here ...

 

You sound like a nice guy. But many of your posts sound like you have a beef with higher end gear. There is more to higher end gear than just speakers and room acoustics! And BTW, who is this Jay guy you are referring to?

Sorry but you are deluded by marketing audiophilia...

No acoustician need the opinion of a crowd of audiophiles, they need their ears and basic knowledge...

I am not an acoustician but i know some basic and tuned my own room... ( with 100 Helmholtz resonators tuned mechanically and i modified the porthole of my speakers and their waveguide and i modified my headphone then... I dont need your opinion about my system limits and qualities i already know them ... Guess how ? 😁 You know enough about me now to know the right answer, but i wll write it to spare you heavy thinking : acoustic experiments...

And i will add that a good sound is not the result of an audiophilia marketing contest , it could be yes, but i dont need to participate...

A minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold exist where all factors in spite of their measured and audible limitations exhibit a very high S.Q. experience with a relatively low price tag... A maximum acoustic satisfaction threshold exist too and you need a dedicated acoustic room anyway to reach this target also...

The gear price tags if synergy is there matter less in the two case : minimal or maximal satisfaction threshold.. Guess why ? 😊

In conclusion my system is not amazing for all in the absolute, it is amazing taken into account the ratio between cost and S.Q.  and taking into account  the resulting balance between each acoustics  experienced concepts describing the experience . ( Timbre and immersiveness if we pick the two most general one)

If knowledgeable people aren’t coming over to listen to your system and tell you that it is amazing then it probably isn’t and you are deluded.

Have you ever compared your low cost system to higher end gear? It could be a case if ignorance is bliss.

 

Most people who claim that dont know what is acoustics...

They had never experimented before with acoustics co0ncepts in a dedicated room and they have never modify their speakers or headphone by experiments...

To prove this fact , take the reviewer Jay , he just give a video, in the last month about a very high end possible speakers, and speaking about buying it or not as possibility he confessed that recently he created an acoustic dedicated room , after years of buying high end gear pieces, and he confessed sincerely , he is honest guy, that NOW the speakers must be picked for his room because now he had learned and understood how the room acoustic impact the system and he love his actual dedicated room ...

In my experience the dedicated room acoustic impact as much as the choice of gear... Jay will not contradict me here...😊

 

Most audiophilia marketing of any piece of gear given as the solution conditioned the mind in this narrow road where  purchasing money is primary over acoustic and even mechanical and basic electrical  knowledge and can replace it...Most speakers sellers dont advise their customers to study acoustics before buying their piece and rarely  will advise  the customer after selling it ... guess why ?

Many dont have the room nor the time to learn and experiment with  this, and anyway why devalorizing the "miraculous" power of their purchase by advising a not so easy task of learning curve  ?

 

The goal of this hobby, the journey is first knowledge and fun mechanical and electrical and acoustic experiments , then when the minimal satisfaction acoustic threshold is reached , it is music listening in sound ectasy...

Upgrading race without budget limit is reserved to those who dont have the time for experiments nor the room and with unlimited pocket...

They do not captivate me nor the reviewers speaking to them...

I prefer reading about acoustics... Not mere room acoustic but now acoustics with an "s" ... Try Dr. Edegar Choueiri and Toole Books...Try discussion  and controversies between acoustician in discussion... Etc...

You know how to read then it is written :

by a relatively low cost system

Now if you are Bill Gates you already know that  "relatively low cost" can be  1000, bucks or 5,000 bucks because it is an expression relating to the usual American income or average one  around 60,000 bucks...

From all that i deduce for evident reason that not knowing that you are not Bill Gates...😊

Low cost? Low as compared to what? I have what I think is an excellent low cost system. It only cost me $150K, less than a top Magico or Wilson loudspeaker.