All that "effort" just sounds interesting to me. I'm probably suited to it. Ordered the Endler attenuators. Fun-looking toys. |
Thanks to absolutely everyone for the discussion. I don't know when I've learned so much about audio. I'll bet it's true that receivers and integrateds have no active preamp. That's how they sound. All of you filled a big hole in my audio experience. A lot of things came together as a result. Cheers. Lynne |
When I asked the question, the passive seemed more logical to me. Now the active seems more logical. I'm sure I will experiment when I have the opportunity. I think the 7.1 is probably 22k (just got in from delivering a calf and am too lazy to look it up). H/k usually is although this one is Madrigal. Thanks for the interesting disscussion. Will research Placette and Manley and Joule for sure. Don't stop. It's very interesting. Lynne |
I will show my ignorance (more of it). If impedences are an issue with passive preamps, then are they also with active preamps? Lynne |
Forgot to mention--yes, I'm exclusively digital, if that matters. Lynne |
Thanks. That's what I thought. The 7.1 has an input impedence of 22k and the Celeste has an output impedence of 120 ohms. I have no idea how synergistic or unsynergistic that is. Lynne |
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Since I don't have the $7000 maybe somebody will start manufacturing them for a fraction of the cost. I copied your response, Eldartford. Last night I tried bypassing the preamp with my H/K HD7600ll which has a variable output option. This player is so old that probably no one knows it anymore. In the late 80's--early 90's it was considered as good as any player on the market, so it's not a terrible reference. I tried this years ago with another system and the result was so horrendous that I didn't consider it with this system until last night. It sounds good. I get the quieter background and improved clarity. It might sound more like my brother's and sister's surround systems with less dynamics (but what is dynamics?) Maybe the music is slightly "pinched". Not sure. The manual volume control feels like a good pot but it's not motorized. I set it at half volume and varied the volume with the remote, and this volume control is of inferrior quality, I assume. So I don't know what these settings are doing for it or to it. All I know for sure is that preamps are an annoying necessity. Lynne |
It didn't work. Back to preamp. |
Eldartford, I later got distortion components. I only played two cd's that night after setting it up, and I thought that it was an improvement over using the preamp. But the following day when I tried other cd's I got a harshness that had not been present. The system had been powered off for a few hours before set=up while I was setting up a new cabinet. So if it was because it was relatively cold at first audition or the cd's I used or my own focus on the improved silent background and clarity I don't know. I guess I should try it again. I wondered if the inferrior output control makes it a poor reference. I'm a little frustrated right now because I think I'm zeroing in on a really good system. But I don't have anywhere near 7k for experiementing. I read partially the review in Stereophile on the active Placette. The reviewer is bananas over it. I guess the Placette is on sale right now for 4k. I just discovered here that your email address is available. Lynne |
Pubul57, Thanks. I'll check it out. If I spent that much I would have to never tell anyone. Lynne |
Yeah. Cool. And I don't know how much of the hobby is having a good system and how much is having good knowledge. That's part of the fun, too. Lynne |
OK, Bob. Thanks. Last night I searched Placette under discussion forums. One member said that a passive preamp needs 40 k ohms input impedence from amp. That might help explain why some people are happy and some are not with passive preamps and goes to Eldhartford's rremarks on many amps going into clipping. So I might not be going passive but I will check out the attenuators. Lynne |
OK. Are there likely to be differences in passives? There's a Goldpount for sale. Lynne |
I did not make that question clear. I think it was a dumb question. It seems to me that all passive preamps of decent quality would be equal in terms of how the amp sees them. If one didn't work, none would. (I'm not including the Placette Active in this group). I tend to try taking the lower cost route and that usually doesn't work out and then I buy the piece I should have bought origianlly. I know better, but there I go again. If the cd player direct to amp didn't wrk because of the inferrior volume control then a passive would solve the problem. The Goldpoint for sale would be a somewhat low cost experiment. |
John, you're right. The Placette active is my goal. I need to hear a stepped attenuator. I don't have any. Newbee asks much better questions. Lynne |
Thanks. I'll follow up on all this. Bob, I get parameters from www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0102/pr
Interesting website which relates well to this discussion. Will also give Arn a call at some point. Lynne |
Pubul57, I'd be more than happy to let you know. I'm isolated here in SE MN. Nobody here knows what an audiophile is. All dealers within 100 mi are busy installing surround sound and care nothing about high end audio. Not that I have anything against surround sound. My sister and brother both have enjoyable systems. I just like 2 channel audio better, and I'm not into the visual. You'd have to educate me all over again with tubes. I've never had any tube gear. I really appreciate all the help. Lynne |
OK. Got all that. I can send the Endlers back too for 30 days. Yes, linestage--much better. My amp and source is not meeting ET's criteria for the passive linestage. Not looking good. It sounded so good cold. The clarity was sort of a jaw-dropper. Tubes, huh? That's a pretty convincing testimony. Tubes look cool. There could be no cover on my tubes. Lynne |
The Audio Research LS-7 linestage preamp must be an old dog, huh? They're asking around $650 including shipping. I guess you get what you pay for. Lynne |
I think it is well established that I don't know anything, but if the analogue components could control the cable, then we could not hear the cable. But there is a whole industry based on the fact that cables have a sound. I never understood the reason for this.
I think I'm giving up on the passive linestage for now. Electroid, if you have the ideal components, I think mine are the worst. I've got 1.1V sensitivity@22kohn. And both my players are 2V@10kohm. Not logical. My disposable income went with the stock market, so I'm not in the mood to do a lot of experimenting right now. But I've learned a lot and that's just as much fun. Lynne |
Thanks, Pipedream, for info. It probably is the hard drive, but my sister and brother have the latest H/K 75W AVR's, and that sound is also amazing as Dpac996 describes. I don't know if I'm upgrading to stay ahead of them or just to keep up. The latest stuff is sounding awfully good. Lynne |
I found that I had an IC about a ft shorter than I was using. So I tried going direct to amp again. With shorter IC I lost the distrtion components that were present with the longer IC. I also discovered that the CD player's volume control is motorized for remote. I cite a very small knob and poor lighting to diminish my embarrassment and proclaim the volume control to be a high quality pot--better than the one on the Celeste. This set-up is significantly better than with preamp, I can tell even though the IC needs some break-in time.
Pubul57, Why does an amp with a low imput impedence affect the frequency response by increasing the mid's? Why doesn't it simply drive the pre into distortion?
I infer from John's comments that age is not such an issue with tubes as with SS. You can simply upgrade tubes and capacitors.
Endler has my money but haven't heard a word.
Lynne |
Gregm, dpac wasn't using a passive linestage; he was using a tube preamp. It would not surprise me at all if I don't understand how impedence works. I'm a gifted dyslexic and I struggle. I go by instinct, and I'm learning as much as I can from you guys. And yes. I am interrested in how impedence works. Please tell me.
John, I understand what you are saying about vintage gear. I have heard of the Audio Research 10 and ll before.
I will read all of this discussion again to absorb what I can.
Scott Endler got back to me. The nude attenuators are backordered and he refunded my money. Meanwhile I've been researching autoformers and transformer attenuators, and I've been waiting for the cable to fully break in. I see the motive now for attempting to achive a successful passive linestage. Without the Sim, I hear the amp, as though for the first time, and it is wonderful. I also am guessing there will be a trade-off with a passive device. What strikes me the most is sensitivity. My amp's sensitivity is 1.1 volt, and the lower the listening level, the more this spec is evident. Lynne |
Good thing I re-read. Atmasphere's discussion of a preamps inability to control the cable. I reconnected the preamp, but this time I ran the variable output to the preamp in. The sound is improved over the fixed output. Maybe that's because the signal running through that circuit with pot changed the impedence--or resistance or capacitance or inductance--that the preamp cannot control. You have to tune the preamp with cable or any other means you can think of. Yes? ( Atmasphere says that degradation of sound quality at lower listening levels is the same issue, which I thought must be sensitivity. I got that). This might be the most important thing I've learned so far. Lynne |
Gregm, ok. Yes, the amps spec is given as 1.1V@22K ohm input impedence. On the CDP, if you meant,"did I read it wrong", apparently not. The HD7600ll's output impedence is given as LINE- 2.0V@10k ohms. I thought the other player was the same, but now I see that a spec is not given. It's an H/K FL8400, one model newer--same DAC, probably the analogue section. So I conclude that it won't work. I am mildly interrested in a City Pulse DAC but I think it has the same spec. But another DAC might be a way to get around it. Otherwise, I assume the Placette active would work. Maybe autoformers? Thanks for the clear, simple explanation of impedence vs resistance.
Atmasphere, I finally got something right. Thanks. I've found a lower cost cable that I like but I probably have $1k in cable easily. For $1k, it probably could have been made balanced. Lynne |
