Hello smodtactical. There are many advantages to using 4 subs in what's called a distributed bass array (DBA) system. Using 4 subs, that are each rated to have a capacity of outputting bass down to 20 Hz, results in no single sub being required to operate anywhere near its limit, the cumulative bass produced will effortlessly and accurately reproduce whatever the music or HT source content demands down to the deepest audible bass frequency of 20 Hz and the bass will be fast, smooth and detailed enough to seamlessly integrate with any pair of main speakers you choose to utilize. This high quality bass will also exist throughout your entire large room and not just at a single designated listening seat. You have the option of either creating a custom 4-sub DBA system with 4 subs of your choice or buying a complete 4-sub DBA system kit such as the Audio Kinesis Swarm system for $3K reviewed below by the Absolute Sound:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/
Due to the large size of your future room and your desire for high quality deep bass performance, I suggest you utilize a minimum of 2 good quality subs, if you're mainly concerned with high quality bass performance at a single designated listening position and 4 good quality subs if you prefer even higher quality bass performance throughout your entire room. Best wishes, Tim |
"
Tim would you go for 4x rel 812, swarm or dual rs2 / s7012?"
Hello smodtactical,
I'd recommend the Swarm because:
1. It'll be simpler to setup since you'll only need to properly set the volume, cutoff frequency and phase controls once on the included 1K watt class AB amp/control unit for all 4 subs, rather than individually for each sub with the other options.
2. It'll be much more aesthetically pleasing in your room than the other options. Each sub is relatively small at 12"wx14.5"dx28"h, is supported by 3 conical spiked metal footers, have the speaker wire terminals hidden by being located on the bottom and are positioned with the 10" driver facing, and about 1-2 inches away from, the wall. Once properly positioned, the subs look like attractive wooden pedestals in the wood of your choice. You can also utilize them as small end tables if you'd like.
3. It would probably be the least expensive option, unless you know of a seller who offers large discounts on REL subs.
Overall, four subs will also perform about twice as well as two subs in terms of bass power, speed, smoothness, dynamic impact as well as the levels of detail and seamless integration with your main speakers. I'm not certain but believe the 4x REL 812 option has the potential to marginally outperform the Swarm but would be more expensive and require the setting of the volume, cutoff frequency and phase controls individually for each sub.
Tim
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Hello smodtactical,
I agree with bdp24, that four Rhythmik F12 subs would perform well in a DBA configuration and that four F18 subs would likely perform just as well but with a bit more deep bass power and impact.
I think it's important for you to understand a few facts about how humans perceive bass:
1. We can generally not locate bass tones (determine exactly where the sound is coming from) below about 80 Hz and the deepest bass tone we can generally hear is 20 Hz, Our bodies can feel deeper bass tones below 20 Hz but we generally can't hear them. Also, there are very few musical instruments that are even capable of producing bass tones below 20 Hz, pipe organs are the only ones I'm aware of.
2. Because of this, we perceive all bass under about 80 Hz as mono and not stereo. Recording engineers have known this for decades and have been summing all bass below about 100 Hz, as well as filtering out bass frequencies below about 20 Hz, since the 1950s. This is also why you can safely disregard any suggestions of positioning subs in your room like main speakers, with a carefully positioned left and right speaker.
In other words, there's no such thing as stereo deep bass. Best in-room bass results will be achieved by operating your subs in mono mode and positioning each sequentially for optimum bass performance. I can explain exactly how to do this, regardless how many subs you ultimately choose to utilize in your room, in a future post.
3. Virtually all commercially available musical content produced in the last 80 years, has the bass below about 100 Hz summed to mono and bass below 20 Hz filtered out. So, even if you did place your subs in a left and right stereo physical configuration, there's a complete lack of content with stereo deep bass to play on them.
My main point, again, is to disregard any suggestions or notions of positioning or operating your subs for stereo playback. Just operate them in mono mode and position each for best bass performance.
Beyond the above, it mainly comes down to cost and convenience. The Audio Kinesis Swarm 4-sub DBA system costs $3K and will produce high quality bass in your room down to the audible limit of 20 Hz. I've never auditioned any Rhythmik subs but believe they are high quality subs at reasonable prices. I also think it's likely that utilizing four F12 or F18 subs in a DBA configuration in your room would outperform the Swarm complete system.
Of course, the decision is completely up to you. I just want to make sure your realize that either Rhythmik option option will cost significantly more and will be less convenient to setup since you'll need to set the volume, frequency cutoff and phase controls separately on each sub, rather than once for all four subs on the Swarm.
However, I also believe that utilizing two F12 and two F18 subs would perform very nearly as well as four F18s in your room, helping with the cost but not the convenience.
Later,
Tim |
big_greg and bdp24,
I agree with you both that four independent subs allows for maximum adjustability and flexibility. I know from personal experience, however, that this level of adjustability and flexibility is not required for excellent bass performance results using the Swarm system.
Audio Kinesis does state that bass performance can possibly be improved by inverting the phase on one of the four subs in some rooms but I noticed no improvement in my room with any of the subs having their phase reversed. Also, their suggested method of phase inversion is simply to reverse the pos. and neg. wires at the sub terminal connections.
big_greg: "I have one sitting just a few feet from my listening position and another on the far side of the room. It doesn’t seem that having them all at the same level would be a good thing."
My listening seat is positioned along my rear wall between two of the four subs, one positioned about 8’ away along the left side wall and the other about 3’ away along the right side wall. The two other subs are both about 20’ away along the front wall. All are operated in mono mode and at identical volumes. I perceive the bass on both music and HT as coming from the front of the room and never perceive the bass as coming from the subs nearest me to the right and left of my listening chair.
I believe this is due to the efficacy of the scientifically proven DBA concept that works exceptionally well in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers.
This DBA concept takes advantage of both how bass sound waves behave in domestic sized rooms and the accumulated psycho-acoustic knowledge concerning how humans perceive sound at various frequencies. I can state with certainty that the 4-sub DBA concept works exceptionally well in my room and I believe it will work equally well in virtually any other room.
Tim |
Hello tyray,
The correct term for a distracting sound coming from the ports on some ported subs is chuffing, not cuffing. Chuffing does not occur on sealed subs because no port is utilized. You are correct, not all ported subs have chuffing.
The conventional wisdom is that sealed subs are best for music and ported subs are best for HT. The Audio Kinesis subs I use have port plugs so they can be operated as ported or sealed subs.
With these subs, I don't perceive a distinct advantage on music operating all 4 as sealed. I operate mine without the port plugs as ported because I think they sound equally as good as sealed and the bass extension goes slightly deeper.
Tim |
luisma31:
"It is funny you said "they sound" the beauty of bass in my system is I forget about the subs, I don’t tweak them, they are part of the room’s furniture, I totally forget these exist, I don’t "hear them". The only time I realize they are there is when I play rock and my wife starts screaming because candles and ornaments she put on top of the subs start falling off, otherwise to me they don’t sound."
Hello luisma31,
You’re mixing up 2 different factors when properly incorporating subs into an audio system: seamless integration of the subs and the sound quality of the subs.
Yes, seamless integration of the subs requires they only become active when the source material demands the reproduction of bass frequencies at or below the selected cutoff frequency. This requires a good knowledge of one’s main speakers’ bass extension performance and a bit of experimentation with the sub’s volume and cutoff frequency controls to augment the bass optimally.
I’ve found that a good guideline, for good integration between subs and the main speakers, is to try and set the volume and crossover frequency as low as possible with the bass still sounding powerful, smooth, fast, detailed, dynamic and natural when activated. I’ve also found that a pair of subs allows the bass to integrate with the main speakers about twice as well as a single sub. Four subs, positioned in a distributed bass array configuration, will integrate about twice as well as a pair of subs and integrate seamlessly with virtually any pair of main speakers and in any room. Eight subs, positioned in a distributed bass configuration in a room, are solid grounds for divorce in most states.
However, seamless integration between subs and main speakers is only one factor in achieving good in-room bass performance, the other is the sound quality performance of the subs. Just like main speakers, the sound quality of subs varies. Fortunately though, there are numerous low distortion, good quality subs that reproduce high sound quality bass sound waves.
To further complicate matters and just like the woofers on main speakers with deep bass extension, it’s not sufficient that subs launch high quality bass sound waves into the room. These high quality bass sound waves must arrive at the listening seat in the same condition for the bass to be perceived as high quality.
In general, the bass is the hardest part of the audible audio spectrum to get right in most systems and rooms. This is primarily due to the fact that bass sound waves are very long and omnidirectional which behave much differently than the much shorter and directional midrange and treble sound waves in typical, domestic-size rooms.
I’ll spare all the details right now, but this means that the woofer positions within the room launching bass soundwaves, whether within main speakers or subs, must be precisely positioned in the room to guarantee these sound waves arrive at the listening position unaltered so that the bass is perceived as high quality, with no bass peaks, dips or nulls perceived.
Given these facts, it’s easy to realize that achieving high sound quality bass at one’s listening position is much more difficult using main speakers with deep bass extension, that are normally positioned within the room to optimize midrange, treble and imaging performance and not bass performance, than using separate, independently positioned subs are capable of achieving. Also, bass integration and sound quality are both improved as more independently positioned subs are added to the room, with the majority of bass sound quality benefits attained through the presence of 4 subs.
The above is why I decided to treat my system as 2 systems, a bass system that I optimize by using a 4-sub Audio Kinesis distributed bass array system and a midrange/treble/imaging system that I optimize by using a pair of Magnepan 3.7i main speakers. Overall, this results in a high quality and full-range audio system that I really enjoy.
Tim
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big_greg:
"Tim, it might surprise you to hear that the system with the best bass I've ever heard consisted of two subwoofers and that they were crossed over at 120. I was quite surprised at the crossover point, but there was no denying what I (and a number of other pretty serious enthusiasts heard).
There's more than one way to skin a cat. "
Hello big_greg.
As far as you, the readers and the authorities know, I stopped skinning cats years ago. Shhhh.
I am surprised by your comment about the best bass you've experienced. You're correct, I wasn't surprised that only 2 subs were utilized because I know very good bass quality is very attainable with 2 subs if you only require very good bass at a single designated listening position in the room. Utilizing 4 subs in a distributed array typically further improves the bass quality, integration and it provides this high quality bass throughout the entire room, not just at a single 'sweet spot'.
Just like you, I'm most surprised by the extremely high crossover frequency of 120 Hz, which is generally considered upper bass, is well above the 80 Hz threshold at which bass tones become localizable. Most individuals should be easily able to discern that 120 Hz tones are originating from the 2 subs which normally negatively effects good imaging.
My main speakers have rated bass extension down to 35Hz. I run them full-range and have my 4 subs crossed over at 40 Hz. I'm completely unable to localize any of these subs in my room, which is what's desired, but I am easily able to localize each of them as the crossover frequency is raised beyond about 80 Hz. This significantly and negatively effects the sound stage imaging in my room as expected.
I cannot explain why the very high 120 Hz crossover setting in your 2 sub audition didn't significantly and negatively effect the sound stage imaging in the room. Can you?
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Hello luisma31,
For someone who claims to not know a lot about audio, I think you're doing pretty well and have a nice system. I think you benefited by talking with Duke and James at RMAF, they're both very knowledgeable and won't steer you wrong. James Romeyn talked me into trying the 4-sub Swarm/Debra distributed bass array system and I'm always so glad that he took the time and effort to do that. It was a true bass revelation to me just as it seems to have been for you. As you know, it provides near state of the art bass performance and you made a great choice that will work well even if you move or change main speakers.
I find it interesting that we both operate our amps at about 50% volume and use fairly low crossover settings, well below 80 Hz. We've also both discovered that bass room treatments, DSP, EQ and room correction are not required for the 4-sub DBA concept to work well.
I recently treated my room with GIK room treatments but the improvements I noticed were mainly in the midrange, treble and imaging qualities but the bass does sound just a bit smoother and more detailed, too.
Enjoy,
Tim
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Hello John,
No problem with the delay, I usually just check for new responses on threads once a day, no hurry. I’ve heard about the mini-DSP previously but the benefit of retrieving more recorded bass information from recordings is new to me. I’d be very interested in hearing a high quality system using multiple subsonic subs and a mini-DSP playing both music and HT source material. I think I’d need to experience the increased bass extension in person to determine whether updating my bass system would be worth time, effort and expense involved, which would include 4 new subsonic subs, the mini-DSP and learning how to properly use it. I’m currently torn because I’m fairly certain I would enjoy the added bass extension, likely perceiving it as being even more realistic and palpable than my current system which I perceive as having near sota bass response even though the bass extension is limited to 20 Hz.
There’s also the advantage of how convenient my current system is to operate and it’s overall simplicity. I just use an Oppo 205 Blu-ray player as a 5.1 Audio surround processor, with surround output channels run direct to separate amps and speakers for HT. And a separate preamp with ht passthru for music. The 4-sub bass system, with a separate sub amp/control unit that has settings for xover frequency, volume and phase, switches automatically between the summed bass on music and the LFE bass on HT based on the preamp input I select. This is very convenient because the settings on the sub amp/control unit don’t require changing for either music or HT, they remain constant with a xover of 40 Hz, volume at just under 50% and all subs in-phase. It’s basically set and forget. I’m concerned this won’t be true with the addition of a mini-DSP.
I completely agree with you about the benefits of getting my room measured. However, I was considering buying a good mic, downloading REW to my laptop and doing the measurements myself. I thought this would be a good method of learning the details of room measurements and gaining experience in understanding the relationship between objective measured room response and my subjective perceptions of the sound in my own room and system.
Thanks for all the very useful info.
Tim |
Hello douglas_schroeder,
I have never employed 4 to 12 15" woofers in my room or systems in different configurations of large drivers reaching down well below 20 Hz. I've only employed a maximum of 4 10" woofers/subs in a single optimized configuration, that reach down to 20 Hz, but not likely much deeper, and were included in the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system I've been utilizing in my room and systems for the past 5 years.
Since employing the AK Debra 4-sub DBA system, however, I have become very familiar in experiencing and enjoying very high quality bass performance that you very aptly describe as having the qualities of "gradations of power, dynamics, smoothness, ease, tonality, etc." I would only suggest adding speed, accuracy, detail and naturalness to your list.
But your apparent endorsement of employing subs with larger woofers and in quantities beyond 4 subs to reproduce bass well below 20 Hz and even further improve bass performance, both surprises and somewhat confuses me.
It's my understanding that reproduced bass tones below 20 Hz are not audible, mainly just vibrate things around the room including parts of our bodies, there are very few musical instruments that produce bass below 20 Hz with pipe organs being the only ones I'm aware of and there being virtually no commercially available music recordings containing bass frequencies below 20 Hz.
I prefer bass that sounds and feels natural like when music is played, heard and felt live in person at smaller venues, not like over-amplified arena rock bass. What am I misunderstanding about music bass below 20Hz?
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello jwmorris/John,
I just wanted to respond to a few of your statements on your last post:
"Oh, by the way, my in room response is +/- 3 db from 100 to 6 Hz." and "There are frequencies below 20Hz used in some of today’s music".
Your profile has no system details and I’m wondering if you could list the main speakers and subs you use in your system? It seems like you use your system for both stereo music and HT playback, just as I do.
Your stated in-room bass response of +/- 3 db from 100 to 6 Hz is impressive. My Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system only has a bass response of +/- 3 db from 100 to 20 Hz.
However, I’m fairly certain that 4K Ultra HD Bluray discs and streaming videos don’t contain any audio content below 20 Hz. I’m virtually 100% certain that no commercially available stereo music content, whether issued on LP, CD, SACD or Hi-Res digital file, contains any audio music content below 20 Hz because not one of the numerous individuals, that I’ve asked to identify a single specific example of a stereo music recording with bass below 20 Hz, has been able to do so. I’ve even searched for a single example myself without any luck. Can you name a single example? Anybody reading this thread know of a single example?
My main point, which I believe you likely agree with, is that it makes little sense to have an audio system capable of bass down to 6 Hz if there’s no HT or music content that contains bass that deep. Are you sure you’re not listening and feeling bass that’s going down to 20 Hz and just thinking it’s going down to 6 Hz?
In my room, even bass down to only 20 Hz sounds and feels very deep with powerful impact and realism on both HT and music. I don’t perceive I’m missing a thing.
Tim
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phusis: "This is tangential to your former examples of arguments in the vein of "there’s no stereo information in the bass, neither recorded nor perceived; symmetrical placement of subs is moot (at a not specified cross-over frequency)" etc., and it goes to show what you’d like to feel better about while trying to convince others into believing as well. Sorry to be blunt about this." jwmorris:"I found a Spotify list of music with content below 20Hz using Google, I have not played this list. The search took about 5 minutes:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1Of0wCy23zikiR2kdzNeCo" Hello phusis and jwmorris, I think it's best if we consider these as separate issues: 1. Recorded 4K Ultra Hd Bluray bass content. I had stated: "I’m fairly certain that 4K Ultra HD Bluray discs and streaming videos don’t contain any audio content below 20 Hz. " I believe my statement is generally correct but I'm willing to concede the fact that there is recorded sub 20 Hz bass existing on numerous 4K Bluray discs if individuals are willing to invest the time, effort and equipment required to retrieve and play it back. I'm not interested in doing so but I understand there are other HT enthusiasts that enjoy plumbing the bass depths of their HT systems. 2. Recorded stereo music content. Acoustic scientists have proven that humans cannot localize, which means to determine where a sound is coming from, bass frequency tones below about 80 Hz but are increasingly adept at localizing tones as the frequency of the tone increases from about 80 Hz up to the human audible high frequency limit of about 20,000 Hz. Recording engineers, of course, were aware of these facts and are the reason virtually all of them have been summing all the bass below about 100 Hz to mono on their master recording mixes for all music content formats for the past 60-70 years. This means there's no recorded stereo bass information on music content on Phusis, your link on your last post to a Spotify site, that you stated lists music recordings containing bass below 20 Hz, did not work and connect me to this list. Can you please correct this and repost the link? You do realize that you conflated several separate but related bass issues when you stated ""This is tangential to your former examples of arguments in the vein of "there’s no stereo information in the bass, neither recorded nor perceived; symmetrical placement of subs is moot (at a not specified cross-over frequency)" etc., and it goes to show what you’d like to feel better about while trying to convince others into believing as well. Sorry to be blunt about this.", right? You conflated the separate issues of whether there are any music recordings in any format that contain bass below 20 Hz with whether this deep bass is recorded in stereo and whether individuals would be capable of perceiving the deep bass as stereo even if the bass below 20 Hz actually was recorded in stereo. My point is that all the following conditions have to be met for you to be correct about the viability of achieving true stereo deep bass in your system: 1. At least a single commercially available music recording with bass content below 20 Hz has to exist. 2. This deep bass must be recorded in stereo. 3. A left and right channel sub needs to be setup, and 4. You need to be able to localize bass frequency tones below 80 Hz. Pending the validity of your Spotify list, I don't currently believe any of these conditions have been yet met. Fortunately however, none of this matters if you do the following: 1. Play any music recording with bass content down to 20 Hz. 2. This bass must be summed to mono as the overwhelming majority of commercially available recordings already are. 3. All your subs are run in mono mode and positioned in the room for optimum bass response at your listening seat. 4. You will not be able to localize any of the deep bass coming from any of your subs but you'll still perceive the deep bass as stereo, with the deep bass seeming to originate from the proper instrument in the sound stage image illusion. This is possible because the fundamental deep bass tones down to 20 Hz and under 80 Hz, which we cannot localize, are being reproduced by the subs in mono. But the deep bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental tones which reach above the 80 Hz threshold, which we can localize, are being reproduced by your main speakers in stereo. You'll be able to perceive the deep bass as stereo bass because our amazing brains are able to associate the bass harmonics or overtones coming from your main stereo speakers with the much deeper bass fundamental tones coming from your subs. It all works like a charm and works with any recording whether the bass extends below 20 Hz and recorded in stereo or not. For example, the double bass will be perceived as being positioned at the front left of the sound stage image and the drums will be perceived as being positioned at the rear center of the sound stage image with solid and stable image illusions. |
Hello millercarbon, You know we both completely agree, based on personal experience, about how exceptionally effective the 4-sub DBAs are in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers. The topic on this thread had switched a bit and was recently about whether anyone knew of any commercially available music recordings that contained bass below 20 Hz. Phusis then posted some comments that raised the issue again about whether or not deep bass under 80 Hz was recorded in true stereo and whether individuals can localize bass below 80 Hz even if the music was actually recorded in true stereo bass. I think we both know how extremely rare it is for anyone being able to identify a single music recording that's commercially available with any bass content below 20 Hz and that, even if one is proven to exist, I think the odds that the bass was also recorded in true stereo below 80 Hz and not summed to mono, is lroughly zero. My current concern is that we're veering away from the main subject the OP, smodtactical, is concerned with. His main concern seems to be how he can achieve very good bass response in his future very large 30'x30' room for music that will also perform very well for HT use. Can he achieve this using large subs or will it require smaller, sealed subs to perform very well, especially on music. Smodtactical, please correct me if I didn't summarize your main concerns correctly. My suggestion is that you'll likely find it easier to get very good bass performance in your future large room than it would be in a smaller room. This belief is mainly based on the fact that bass soundwaves are omnidirectional, are physically much longer and behave much differently in any given room than midrange and treble soundwaves behave. Midrange/treble soundwaves are highly directional, physically much shorter and, therefore, behave much differently in any given room than bass soundwaves do. In smaller sized rooms,I've found it's best to get the bass sounding right in the room first and then optimally position the main speakers in the room, in relation to the designated listening seat, for midrange/treble and imaging performance. 'm not certain this approach works as well in larger rooms but I don't see why it wouldn't. In theory, I believe it should be easier. Smodtactical, I think you have several options to get the bass right in your future room. But I realize I'll need to more specifically need to understand your goals and budget to best tailor the options I'm thinking about to your requirements. Generally, I'd like to know if your priority is quality or cost and how important convenience is to you in terms of setup and use. My options all consist of a minimum of 2 subs. I know that 2 subs will perform about twice as well as a single and 4 subs about twice as well as 2. Here are some of the general options I'm currently considering for your room: 1. Start with a pair of Captivator RS2 or similar large subs and position them each optimally in your room using the crawl method. If you only use a pair of subs, the optimum positioning of each sub is very important and unlikely to consist of just positioning one by each of your main speakers. You'll need to be open to placing each sub sequentially in your room where the bass sounds the best to you at your listening seat and not where they conveniently fit in your room. This could require rearranging furniture and other room décor. A variation on any of these options is to add a 3rd and even 4th sub to to create what's called a distributed bass array (DBA) system. The advantages of a DBA system are that the bass will have increased bass power and bass dynamics capacity when the content calls for it since the bass is cumulative, each sub will be operating well below its limits for lower distortion, the bass will be perceived as smoother, faster, more detailed, even better integrated with the main speakers and this high quality bass will be perceived throughout the entire room, not just at the designated listening seat. 2. Start with a pair of smaller REL 812S subs optimally positioned using the crawl method. If this is deficient in any way, you could add a 3rd and even 4th 812S sub until it meets your requirements. I believe using smaller and less expensive subs as additional subs might work almost as well as additional 812S subs. I also believe the 812S subs have the very convenient advantage of offering wireless connections. 3. Start with a pair of Syzygy SLF870 subs as a less costly option. These are newer subs that have received very good reviews and are also offer wireless connections. I believe the guy who started this company formerly worked for REL. Here's a link to their site: http://syzygyacoustics.com/4. Buy a complete 4-sub DBA system for about $3K total, such as the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra bass system. This is what I use in my smaller 23'x16' room and it works spectacularly well. I know these are designed to provide high quality bass performance similar to being in a bigger room, but I think this system would work at least as well in a larger room such as yours. However, I'd suggest contacting Duke or James Romeyn at AK to make sure they agree. Here's a review of the Swarm in The Absolute Sound that I found gives a very accurate description of the bass performance level to expect: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/Best of wishes, Tim |
Hello phusis and jwmorris,
I think our disagreements and differences expressed on this thread can be boiled down to a difference in preferences and priorities. I could go into detail but I believe it basically comes down to both of your top priorities seeming to be the optimum bass extension of your sub systems for HT Bluray 4K Ultra HD audio performance and my top priority being the optimum bass quality of my sub system for 2-ch stereo music hi-res digital music file audio performance. I think both are enjoyable and worthy goals. But why can't we have both?
It's my understanding that current direct to hi-res digital recording technology is capable of recording deep bass content below 20 Hz on both digital music files and 4K Ultra HD Bluray discs. Given the factual limits of human hearing, of course, it would make little sense to record this deep bass as discrete stereo channels and the bass below 80 Hz would be summed to mono during the mixing stage for both music and HT audio recordings.
I think this would be a big step forward in the quality of the listening experiences involved with both music and HT audio. This would just require consumers possessing high quality subs capable of reproducing such deep bass frequencies, including my upgrading my 4 subs to ones of higher quality capable of reproducing bass frequencies accurately down to single digits.
Of course this would probably also destroy most regular consumer subs and sound bars that couldn't handle single digit bass frequencies, but that's a reasonable sacrifice, right?
Tim
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Hello John,
I've always built my systems based on the assumption that bass content on virtually all music and HT source material (LPs, CDs, SACDs, DVD and Bluray, digital files, etc.) only had bass extension down to 20 Hz since any recorded bass below 20 Hz was generally filtered out at the mixing stage.
I've been almost certain this assumption was correct and the complete story until you and phusis informed me that a group of AVS forum members had figured out a method, using a mini-DSP, that allows the retrieval of any bass content still existing on numerous specific Bluray and DVD discs that's below 20 Hz.
This was the first I was aware this was even possible on certain discs, so I wanted to thank both of you for bringing this to my attention. As I stated, I'm very satisfied with my current system's bass performance on both music and HT even though it's currently restricted to only 20 Hz in bass extension.
However, I am curious about experiencing how I would perceive even further bass extension in my room and system. I understand I would need to upgrade my current Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system, or at least the existing four 4 ohm passive subs with 10" aluminum long-throw drivers it uses, along with adding a mini-DSP unit to realize high quality deep bass below 20 Hz. Even then, I understand this deeper bass would only accessible on certain HT Bluray and DVDs. I think whether I decide to proceed depends on your answer to the following question:
Does the mini-DSP also allow retrieval of deeper bass content on audio only discs such as CDs and SACDs?
Thanks,
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Hello phusis,
Thanks for your detailed response. I now have a much better understanding of your system preferences, priorities and goals. I looked at your system pic and description on your profile page and admire the unique and independent path you decided to take on your personal audio journey.
Your system certainly looks unique, interesting, beautiful and impressive, I'd love to hear it, or a similar one, in action sometime. You're obviously telling the truth about the size and weight of TH subs. I like the looks of your subs and main speakers but, if I was to switch to THs in my system and living room, my wife would likely be chasing me around our house with a large frying pan targeted at my head.
I have a limited understanding of the appeal of horn speakers, their efficiency, sound qualities, dynamics and ease even at very high SPLs. The first pair of speakers I purchased as an adult in about 1979, was a brand new pair of the original Klipsch Heresy speakers, in unfinished birch wood to save some money, for exactly $300/pair.
I really enjoyed those speakers during college with a TT, 40 watt ss Yamaha CR640 receiver and no sub. I still regret not knowing enough about audio at that time to at least try using a tube amp with them. Now I use 1,200 watt class D monoblock amps with a pair of inefficient planar-magnetic speakers and 4 subs. Oh well.
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello phusis,
Despite our differences of opinion on certain specific audio subjects we’ve previously had, overall it seems to me that our system perspectives, preferences, goals and journeys may be more similar than different.
I believe the metaphor of an audio journey we all take is very descriptive and accurate. We all begin at a certain point, with a system that reflects our lack of knowledge, experience and $ at that specific point in time. Looking at our systems at today’s specific point in time, our current systems almost certainly are very different than our initial systems. However, our current systems still generally reflect our current, or recent, levels of accumulated knowledge, experience and $, just as our initial audio systems did.
How did we get from there to here?
I believe it’s exactly the result of what you stated:
”Well, I guess when I see something that catches my interest on this exciting journey of ours, and that speaks to the accumulated and randomly selected bits and pieces of info that enters one’s mind (and one deems important, for whatever reason), I go for it- no matter the consensus or gist among audiophiles.”
Well, what do you know?, we’ve both been following very similar paths on our audio journeys, following our own personal levels of accumulated knowledge, experience, preferences and goals. But we both wound up having unique but very different systems? Excellent, that’s exactly how our audio journeys are meant to evolve, with no two being identical but all reflecting our personal preferences I would describe my overall system goal is the sound qualities you’d experience listening to live blues, jazz or rock music at a smaller venue with good acoustics. I enjoy the experience of hearing music played live and in person, especially the full range sound from deepest bass to highest treble, the power of bass notes that can be felt as well as heard and the powerful dynamics of musical instruments and human voices when heard live in person.
I’ve found that the lack of powerful, seemingly effortless and unlimited bass and bass dynamics are the best indicator that you’re listening to reproduced music from a recording rather than actual live music. The power and dynamics of higher pitched instruments and voices are, of course, also important in conveying the perception that you’re listening to live music. It’s just that using my Magnepan 3.7i main speakers, I’v found it relatively easy to get the mid and treble frequencies sounding tonally accurate, with live sounding impact, dynamics and holographic imaging.
I’ve found getting the bass sounding right, however, is much more difficult in most rooms than getting the rest of the audible spectrum sounding right. I understand the valid reasons for this reality but won’t digress to describe them in detail right now.
Fortunately, The AK Debra 4-sub DBA system has proven to be an excellent complement to the 3.7i speakers in my system. My main speakers reproduce bass in a very similar manner to how they reproduce the rest of the audio spectrum, fast, smooth, detailed and coherently, but they only have a rated bass extension of 35 Hz. I run them full range and run the 4 subs in mono mode with a crossover frequency of 40 Hz. This extends my system’s bass down to 20 Hz and the speed, smoothness and detail of the bass results in a seamless overall sound integration with the 3.7l main speakers.
This all has resulted in my being very satisfied with my current system. I’ve really been enjoying the perception of the musicians performing live in my room or being present at the venue at a live performance. depending on the recording played.
Thank you for your kind invitation for a demo of your horn system if I’m ever near your home in Scandinavia. I’d love to do so but, unfortunately, I don’t get up near your neighborhood too often. Of course, if you ever find yourself in the American Midwest near Indiana, you’re always welcome to drop my my place for a demo, too.
Best wishes,
Tim
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twoleftears,
You can do this with the AK Swarm and Debra DBA passive subs, front firing but terminals on the bottom and controls on the amp/control unit.member hleeid has a Swarm in his small office with 1 sub on the floor and 3 on shelves near the ceiling and firing toward it. He’s stated it saved a lot of floor space and sounds very good. He posted fairly recently on this thread.
Tim
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I agree with millercarbon and brotw, DBAs excel at providing very fast, smooth, detailed bass throughout the entire room, not just at a designated LP. The bass is also capable of being as powerful and dynamic as the music or HT content calls for because there's 4 of them operating in mono as a collective group.
Based on my experience utilizing a 4-sub Audio Kinesis Debra DBA system for the past 5 years, the main benefit is the perception that there is a complete absence of bass peaks, dips, nulls, muddiness, boominess and ringing. I consider the bass quality as near state of the art in my room/system and cannot identify any actual bass deficencies.
As I understand it, the benefits of utilizing multiple subs begin to be realized with the deployment of 2 subs in a given room, especially when both subs are optimally and precisely positioned in relation to the LP. It's also very important that the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls are optimally set on each sub for these benefits to be realized.
Based on my prior usage of 2 self-amplified subs in my room/system, I would describe these benefits as the beginning of realizing the benefits of using a 4-sub DBA system. The bass begins to sound faster, smoother, more detailed, more powerful and dynamic, better blended with the main speakers and very good overall. My experience transitioning to 4 subs resulted in even further improvements in all of these bass qualities and the overall bass quality improved from very good to what I consider near state of the art.
To answer brotw's question about whether one can attain an approximation of a DBA's bass quality performance utilizing just 2 higher powered subs with room correction, therefore, I believe the answer is a qualified yes, depending on whether an individual is satisfied having this high quality bass restricted to a single designated LP in the room.
However, I'm less convinced of the positive effects of room correction hardware/software and room treatments on overall in-room bass performance. Of course, this could be the result of never utilizing room correction, and only recently utilizing room treatments, in any of my own multi-sub room/system configurations. I was concerned about adding bass room treatments recommended by GIK after a room analysis, 2 stacked TriTrap bass traps in all 4 corners and some other 5.5" thick bass trap panels spread about, but they've had no negative bass effects in my room.
As to room correction hardware/software, I suspect that having ruler flat bass response in a room may not sound as good as we might expect.
So brotw, my best answer to your question is a definite...... maybe.
Tim
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brotw: " I believe room correction has the benefit of improving the tonality of the rooms bass response at the LP. Of all the speakers and amps that have made their way through my listening room, not one did not benefit from dsp. Music sounded more coherent and live with tighter bass and imaging every time I flipped on the Dirac filter. The mixed phase filters are great, and perhaps they are correcting the speaker crossovers and room all in one. "
Hello brotw,
I think it’s best that I just accept your claim as fact that room correction/DSP/Dirac have had positive effects on your systems. I also realize individuals are unlikely to improve their system’s performance without having the sense to learn from the experiences of others and taking the initiative to actually audition the promising suggestions in their own systems.
However, I’m a bit confused about exactly what component you’ve been utilizing in your systems that contains DSP/Dirac filtering capability, can you let us know?
My prior preamp was the Parasound Halo P5 with bass management, so I am very familiar with that unit. Imho, it’s a good preamp with a very neutral sonic signature. I now use a Levinson 326S preamp in my system. I didn’t see a purpose in having 3 bass management systems, one with controls on the back of the P5, one incorporated into my Oppo 205 Bluray/CD/SACD player and the one with controls on the front of my AK Debra 4-sub amp/control unit. I also liked the improved tonal quality and more 3 dimensional sound stage I perceived with the 326S in my system.
However, I think the P5’s bass managent could prove very useful in your system, especially if used to reduce the bass duties of your Line Magnetic 508ia SET tube class A 48w/ch integrated amp.
I believe your best solution is utilizing a pair of good quality self-amplified subs in your room. You could connect both subs to your P5, set the P5’s bass management controls so that all bass frequencies below about 60 Hz are sent to the subs and all frequencies at or above about 60 Hz are sent to your 508ia. I think this would likely eliminate your 3-5db suckout near 50 Hz and improve the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance of your 508ia and main speakers combination.
You could then optimize the overall system performance and balance by making small adjustments to the low and high pass crossover frequency control settings on the P5 by ear and preferences.
For best results, I recommend precisely locating each sub in your room, and in relation to your LP, sequentially utilizing the ’sub crawl method’. You can google it for details.
Tim
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phusis: "
What is your reply other than to essentially advocate, or indeed advertise for a multi-sub set-up with smaller drivers? We know it works excellently, yes, but sorry - it’s not the primary relevance of this thread. The OP asked whether BIG subs are viable for 2-channel music, and they most certainly are while bringing to the table possible advantages few get to experience, because large size isn’t desirable or otherwise allowed for. Nothing holds anyone from going the DBA-route with big subs - now that would be awesome, and with proper designs it’s a win-win."
Hello phusis,
Good points and fair enough. It's obviously true that I highly recommend the AK Swarm or Debra 4-sub DBA systems that use one smaller 10" driver in each of its relatively small sub cabinets, admittedly ad nauseum and unapologetically, mainly because it's proven to be so exceptionally effective in my own room/system, as well as numerous other A'gon members' rooms/systems, and because I know it's a reliable, relatively affordable and relatively simple method to attain near sota bass
performance, that's flat down to 20 Hz, in virtually any room and with virtually any pair of main speakers. What's not to like, right?
But I agree with you. let's just agree to concur on all that and rightfully focus on the OP's inquiry. I get the impression from this thread that the OP, smodtactical, has learned quite a bit, and has done a considerable amount of research on his own, concerning the attainment of good bass performance through the use of subs and bass systems. He also seems to have an admirably open mind as well as the courage, curiosity and spirit of adventure necessary to consider and explore various options.
Contrary to apparently popular belief, I've always realized there's multiple methods of achieving very good and well integrated system bass performance besides simply buying and installing a complete AK Swarm or Debra DBA system.
In fact, I learned of the 4-sub distributed bass array concept before learning of it being sold in complete kit form by AK.
At this point about 7 years ago, I had already proven to myself, through personal experimentation and experience, that very good bass performance could be achieved at my designated listening seat through the use of 2 good quality and precisely positioned subs. I also learned that this dual sub concept was scalable, since larger subs performed equally well but just with greater bass impact and dynamics, and that there's no requirement that the subs utilized are the same brand, model, size or even type (sealed or ported). I discovered combining a sealed sub with a ported sub works equally well and that the overall bass extension perceived extends to the depth of the sub with the deepest rated bass extension, which is almost always the ported sub.
I was originally intending to create a custom 4-sub DBA for my combination 2-ch music and HT system using a pair of the JL F112 subs with a 12" driver each and a pair of the JL F110 subs with a 10" driver each.
But then I learned about the AK Swarm complete kit DBA for $2,800 and started noodling . My custom JL DBA would cost about $15,000 at the time 5 years ago:
- Sure, the custom JL DBA would likely go a bit deeper than the AK DBA's 20 Hz, but how deep did I need?
- I'm not a bass-head at all and much prefer high quality bass.
- Besides, I don't think there's much if any available music or HT source material that has content below about 20 Hz.
-With a custom DBA, I'd need to optimally adjust the level, crossover frequency and phase controls on all 4 subs individually. On the AK DBA, I'd only need to optimally adjust these three controls once on the supplied amp/control unit for all four subs and the bass system as a whole.
- It'd be a lot easier accommodating the four AK DBA's 1'x1'x28" subs in our living room than four larger subs.
- Hmm, I could save over $12,000, get near sota bass performance down to a flat 20 Hz and it'd be simpler to optimally setup?
Long story short...ish, I bought the AK complete kit and it's exceeded my expectations plus made me smile for over 5 years thus far.
From what I've read and experienced however, I still think smodtactical's idea of using 4 large subs,in a DBA configuration for music and HT would likely perform very well. But I suspect a combo pair of larger and smaller subs, or an AK DBA, would probably perform at least as well.
I think his bass preferences and his budget wll, and should be, the key factors in his choice.
Tim
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phusis:
"Well-integrating subs IS about pursuing High Fidelity in its truer sense and certainly not like "added ketchup to some kind of gourmet food," but rather about making the intend of gourmet food taste gourmet in the first place. This applies to both music and HT reproduction; when the capacity is properly at hand you won't need "compensation" gain-wise in an HT-system, and it complements music as well."
I completely agree with phusis. High fidelity reproduction of the bottom two octaves of bass on music recordings, through the incorporation of 2 or more optimally positioned and configured subs in a system, is one of the most effective methods available to obtain near state of the art bass performance that is powerful, fast, smooth, dynamic, articulate, realistic. seamlessly integrated with the main speakers with a sense of effortlessness and naturalness in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers.
Those dismissing the effectiveness of the scientifically proven method of utilizing multiple subs in a room/system(see the works of Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd Toole and Todd Welki for details) as analogous to pouring ketchup on gourmet food or other tropes, are simply proclaiming their complete lack of knowledge and experience with this method.
For those lacking knowledge and experience concerning the effectiveness of multiple subs, I suggest gaining knowledge through online research, gaining experience by auditioning multiple sub bass systems and determining the concept's effectiveness for yourself.
Tim
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Hello tellefsen,
It seems like you have figured how to integrate your pair of subs very well into your system. You may not have experimented with the Swarm concept yet but you certainly have experimented with the multiple sub concept and now have valuable personal experience with its benefits. Congrats on your adventurous spirit and bass system!
Tim
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Hello phusis, Wow, I was a bit surprised that this thread is still continuing. I don't have any disagreements with anything stated in the linked article but think it may be a bit technical for some consumers to completely comprehend and apply the information usefully to their own buying and system building decisions. I believe most consumers seeking better bass in their rooms/systems would prefer to purchase subs or bass systems that have intelligently incorporated the best and most relevant bass reproduction knowledge and technology into their products. My main point being that some consumers have taken the time and have the interest in knowing the details of how to attain very good bass performance in their domestic rooms and many, most?, don't and just want a simple and affordable solution. You, some others on this thread and I understand that getting good bass performance is more complex than just plopping down a sub in a convenient room location. I think it's best if we keep things as simple as possible for this thread to be beneficial to the largest number of readers. For example, I think we agree that multiple subs will typically provide much better bass performance than a single sub in virtually any room and that 3 to 4 subs will generally provide even better bass performance. A pair of well positioned, good quality subs is usually sufficient for achieving good bass performance at a single designated listening position and 3-4 subs are usually sufficient for achieving good bass performance throughout the entire room, which is important for HT setups with multiple listening positions. If consumers want very good bass performance throughout their entire room, the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra 4-sub distributed bass array complete kits for about $3K are a simple, relatively affordable and very high quality solution. Here's an Absolute Sound review of the Swarm:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/
Tim |
Hello smodtactical,
"
Do big subwoofers just automatically mean someone is a bass head and the bass they are getting is of poor quality? Many people here said that a well designed large subwoofer is not inferior or slower than a small subwoofer. Do you disagree with that sentiment?"
No, I don't think using big subwoofers automatically means someone is a bass-head and they're relegated to poor quality bass. I believe there's a variety of viable options using 2 or more subs to incorporate better bass performance in the lowest 2 octave range, about 16-32 Hz in frequency, into one's system and room.
Unfortunately, I just understand I lack the knowledge and personal experience of the various possible options, including the use of various sub sizes, to confidently and reliably state how well large subs perform on music and HT as compared to multiple smaller subs.
I can tell you with complete confidence and certainty that the AK Swarm or Debra DBA , utilizing 4 rather small subs and priced at a complete kit price of about $3K, will provide near sota bass response for music and HT.
I suspect that 4 larger subs in a similar DBA configuration, however, would perform at least as well or likely even better than either AK system. The best suggestion I can offer you is to select 4 larger subs, from a vendor with a liberal return policy, and give it a try. The main drawbacks would be the time, effort and the required optimum setting of the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls on each sub individually.
"
Besides, I don't think there's much if any available music or HT source material that has content below about 20 Hz."Another statement I see often. Pipe organs can go below 20 hz and I find frequencies below 20 hz provide an incredible sense of space, scale, growl of the organ that I really love. Also lots of my EDM/techno/ambient goes below 20 hz. So I think there is value there."
I formerly believed commercially available music and HT content had bass extension below 20 Hz, too. But then someone asked me to identify a single commercially available music or HT recording as an example. I searched for a while but couldn't find a single example, not even one. Of course, you're more than welcome to try and find an example if you'd like.
The closest I could find was a group of guys that discovered an arcane method for retrieving any sub 20 Hz content from some discs if any trace of the original master recording with deeper bass extension was still accessible. They maintained a list of such discs that did on some online site I've forgotten. Talk about bass-heads.
Best wishes,
Tim |
