Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music?

     @noble100, I apologize for the delay in replying to this thread. The Mini-Dsp helps optimize the information on ANY audio format. It can be used in a variety of ways, one of which is optimizing up to four sub-woofers. If using the Mini-Dsp for sub-woofers you can adjust the timing, volume, delay and more for each sub-woofer individually.  Separate adjustments for each sub-woofer would also require a separate amplifier channel for each sub.  

     If you want to further optimize your system, In My Humble Opinion, the first thing to do is measure your in room response, or after the health scare is over, have someone else measure it for you. During the measurement phase, use one speaker as a timing reference and correctly time all of your speakers to work together. In my room, correct timing made a big difference.

     After measurements and timing adjustments, if you still want to improve your system, I suggest doing some reading on the Mini-Dsp and consider using it to optimize what you already have. I believe most enthusiast change speakers without ever hearing them at their best. Once/If you reach the limit of what your speakers can do, then consider replacements.

     Another option available after the health scare is to find someone near you with different speakers, that will demo their system for you. Listening to someone else’s room and equipment is a great way to make new friends and hear something different. If you like what you hear then you can decide if and how to implement the changes in your room. 

Stay Safe!   

John

You don't know what you are missing until you experience it. 

Frequencies below 20Hz add realism when watching movies. In real life if a train rolls by, or there is a gun shot or explosion, there are frequencies you feel. The sensation added by low level deep frequencies can contribute to emotion during movies. The ability to reproduce those frequencies is a good thing. 

There are frequencies below 20Hz used in some of today's music. 

Smodtactical, the best advice you have received is to listen. When things settle down from the virus, find as many listening opportunities as you can. Continue to do research here and other sites. 

The construction of your room matters (concrete or suspended floor etc.) Your preference for bass matters. Some people love sealed subs, others do not. 

I have two JTR S2 subwoofers in a 14x29x8 room. I use a mini-dsp to adjust the subs. There are times I have caught myself thinking, wow, I paid all that money for these subs and I can't even hear them. Then the music or sound track calls for it and I get a big smile across my face. These subs are special. 

You are planning a large room, bass requires displacement of air. Larger drivers move more air. 

I am in SC. You are welcome to come listen when things are safer. Oh, by the way, my in room response is +/- 3 db from 100 to 6 Hz. I have also added a BOSS platform as detailed in The Hideaway Theater thread on another forum. Large sub-woofers can be great!

Enjoy the journey, and have fun!

John    

Smodtactical,
     The subs I bought were being sold used, locally. A friend who had listened to my system before suggested I needed large sub-woofers. That same friend told me these were available. I listened the first day without purchasing, after that I could not get them out of my mind.    

The S2 is my first sealed sub-woofer and I must admit, they took some getting used too. I never realized it but I like/am used to distortion. These subs are so different than what I have ever heard before. They are tuneful, effortless, and can send you running for the remote. I know it is a cliche but I am hearing things in familiar movies and music I did not realize were there. 

The JTR 4000 promises to be a pretty amazing sub-woofer. The JTR 2400 would probably be easier to place and is also special.   

My advice is don't spend any money yet. Research as much as you can (Google is your friend here),  give appropriate weight to opinions that have actually heard the speakers in question, and listen for yourself. 

   

@phusis is absolutely correct. There is content below 20Hz and each individual must decide tor themselves if that content is worth pursuing. 

@noble100  It is true some movies are released with bass filtered content. There is a group of  enthusiast that have created a way to measure each movie, and display the average and maximum level of content at each frequency. They then found a way to use a mini-dsp to restore the filtered content.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2995212-bass-eq-filtered-movies.html  

I found a Spotify list of music with content below 20Hz using Google, I have not played this list. The search took about 5 minutes:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1Of0wCy23zikiR2kdzNeCo

The 1960 VW Karmann Ghia came with a 36 HP engine. The top speed was 72 MPH. The top speed of a BMW 528 xi is 155 MPH. Both cars cars can drive 70 MPH, but the driving experience will be very different. The BMW will reach speeds that are seen in daily use with extreme ease and comfort.

The same applies to speakers. You may be able to get a speaker to play at 30 HZ but if it is struggling to do so, distortion goes up and the sound is affected. That is the reason we have sub-woofers, they take over where our main speakers are challenged. A large sub-woofer, with a numerically lower frequency limit can take playing ability one step beyond a sub-woofer limited to 20 Hz. A sub-woofer that can play clear, distortion free, sound at reasonable levels below 20 Hz is completely at ease at with content above 20 Hz, that difference can be heard.    
     
I use Vandersteen speakers in my multi-channel system. I use Innersound Eros in my office system. I will try and get some system information up this week. I also plan on trying to show my system measurements as well but if I show you mine, you have to show me yours (system measurements that is...). 

Back to the original question...
In my room, using large sub-woofers, I can select two channel operation and be enveloped by music so much that I forget I am not listening in multi-channel mode.  

Stay safe everyone 

https://www.certifiedautosound.com/basshead-songs-put-your-subwoofer-system-to-the-test/?hilite=%27bass%27%2C%27below%27%2C%2720hz%27

 

We sorted through about 75 tracks using Adobe Audition. Audition allows us to look at the spectral content of a track quickly to find out how low it extends. We’ve included spectral content charts for each track that shows frequency along the vertical scale, time across the horizontal scale and amplitude shown as color intensity from black through purple and orange.... (continued)

The monologue introduction to “Boom Boom Pow” by will.i.am builds to a crescendo from the 45-second mark, peaking with infrasonic information from :50 to 1:03. Content during this time extends solidly down to 7 Hz. There is another drop at 2:18, and the section from 3:13 to 3:42 contains a lot of infrasonic content. If your system is up to the challenge, this track has it all: a solid conventional bass line and enough content below 20Hz to make any true basshead happy!

Another all-time-classic classical recording is Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture. This recording is known for its jaw-dropping cannon blasts at the end. When played back on a vinyl record, all but the very best turntable configurations will result in the needle jumping out of the track as the cannons go off. The first five cannon blasts appear at 12:36 into the track. The second and most impressive group begins at 14:41, with the blast at 14:55 containing low-frequency energy that extends down to nearly DC levels. Call it one to two Hertz if you want – it makes no difference.

     As enthusiast enamored with our equipment, in our room, in our opinion we have to be careful not to be closed minded. I do not believe most enthusiast start with a great system. Great systems usually evolve over time. Most enthusiast come to a forum seeking advice and/or to learn from other people’s knowledge and experience.  

     We read, research, hear, or hear about a new way of doing things and we explore the new information. If we are open minded our joy of the hobby and our systems are improved. If we are determined to be closed minded, we do not grow. If we are determined to be closed minded we miss out on possible system improvements.

     If we insist our way is “The” only way we hinder/limit our own growth. If we openly criticize equipment and experiences with no credible experiences we could possibly hinder the growth of others. In those cases we should always remember to include “In My Opinion/Experience” etc.  
 
    I read more than I post. I try not to criticize anyone’s personal preference of speakers etc. I have heard multi-subwoofer setups. I actually considered purchasing a SWARM setup. I have experimented with a third subwoofer in my room. I have also experienced sub-woofer systems capable of Ultra Low Frequencies (ULF). I am very happy with my system but I am also very aware it can be improved.

     None of our systems are perfect. None of us know everything. None of us should attempt to invalidate the experience of someone else based on our own experience. The goal should always be to learn more/understand more. The goal should always be to improve and increase our enjoyment of music and the music playback systems. Some have forgotten this, others never knew it.      

After reading the above I found this on google:

  https://www.google.com/search?ei=sCONXpbEEZKuytMPpN21GA&q=how+low+does+the+bass+extend+in+the+1812+overture&oq=how+low+does+the+bass+extend+in+the+1812+overature&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgUIIRCgAToECAAQRzoOCAAQ6gIQtAIQmgEQ5QI6BQgAEJECOgIIADoFCAAQgwE6BAgAEEM6BggAEBYQHjoICCEQFhAdEB46BAghEAo6BQghEKsCSjYIFxIyMzM1ZzEyNGcxMjdnMTQ4ZzEzMmcxMjJnMTk3ZzEwN2c4NWcxMDJnMjIzZzEyOGcxNTZKHggYEhoxZzFnMWcxZzFnMWcxZzFnMWcxZzNnNWczNFD51QNYvNEEYL7nBGgAcAJ4A4AByQKIAfE_kgEIOS4zNS43LjKYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6sAEG&sclient=psy-ab

 

The cannon shots from the famous Telarc 1812 Overture are at 8Hz. The 64-foot pipe on the world's largest organs have a frequency of 8Hz, the lowest note on a double bass is 41Hz, and the fundamental frequency of the tuba is 16Hz.

@noble100  I agree the priorities of any system can be very different. The priorities of the person mixing the music or sound track also come into play. The bottom line is we each spend our time, and hard earned money where it matters to us most.  

The question of destroying consumer subs and sound bars is the entire reason behind the BEQ thread linked earlier. Someone discovered that some film companies were reducing low bass content in blu-rays and DVD to prevent damaging consumer equipment. 

That makes sense. But if you have invested the time and money to have a system capable of sub 20 Hz performance you can get that filtered information back using BEQ. 

I did not plan on having a system capable of ultra low frequencies. The sub-woofers I bought were available less than 30 minutes away. I thought it was a great opportunity to own a pair of world class sub-woofers, so I made the purchase. 

I do not believe I am lacking in quality or quantity. I have added some screen shots of my room measurements to my profile. I will try and add some pictures soon. The next thing on my wish list is some room treatments. 


@phusis Thank you!


John

       

@noble100 if you are willing to invest some time learning REW, I think it would really help you understand what is happening in your room. I have experimented with the software but I need to invest more time. The friend that suggested I buy my current sub-woofers offered to measure and set them up for me. 
 
After my friend setup a flat response curve I learned that my ears do not hear the same as a microphone. I adjusted my response to what sounded good to my ear. I did save my previous measurements so that I can always return to a relatively flat response. Now that I have adjusted I am  curious how my measurements have changed.

It sounds like your setup is well thought out. I use an OPPO 103 in the basement system. My pre-amplifier has a home theater equalization setting. It also offers settings for 2 channel or multi-channel music. I can save sub bass adjustments according to the various settings (cinema, music, Dolby etc). When I select the music or cinema modes my bass settings are loaded. 

Good luck with your measurements, I hope you find audio bliss.

John