"I'm an EE with extensive analog and digital design experience (for defense electronics, not for audio)"
So this is why our military has all the good stuff they do. I always assumed NASA reversed engineered alien technology. I should have known better. |
"02-05-15: Douglas_schroeder
"Fast" means not so much unless you are speaking of a system."
I'm not sure I understand, can you clarify? |
"02-05-15: Wolf_garcia
Fast, in this case, means how fast you bank account empties once you buy a Spectral item."
That's always the case. That's what credit cards are for.
"'Fast' and 'slow' should not be confused with 'bright' and 'dull'; these are entirely different things, even if an amp that is 'fast' is also 'bright'. There are different reasons for these things!"
We may not all have the same exact thing in mind when it comes to fast. After reading Douglas_schroeder's comment, I'm just not clear as to what he meant. |
"02-05-15: Psag
So far we've learned that Spectral is fast, MIT cables are slow and rolled off, and prices are too high. Anything else?"
People say I can get really annoying, really fast. |
"02-09-15: Csontos
I think it would be useful to get a subjective description of just what the attributes of a 'fast' amp are sonically. What does speed sound like in an amp in comparison to mediocrity? Anyone?"
All components contribute to a systems illusion of speed, so its hard to isolate just the amp. But overall, from a subjective perspective, you need to listen to how the system is reproducing the attack, resonance and decay of whatever instruments are on the recording. When the attack, or leading edge of a note is being highlighted more so than the other 2, you'll probably interpret that as speed, or PRAT. |
"02-09-15: Csontos
Can you give an example of an amp that is outstanding in this regard?"
I bought a Musical Fidelity A3.5 integrated. It had way too much attack, or speed. So much so, that unless you have a really dull sounding system that needs a band aid fix like that, it just wears you down and starts to sound like a gimmick. Its kind of hard to find an example like that any more, because most designers have been trying to get their designs to have more of a balanced sound to them. And for the most part, they've been successful. Tube designers try to get they're gear to have more SS qualities, and SS designers trying to get some tube aspects in their designs. That type of thing. |
"02-10-15: Csontos
Zd, I would think the opposite is the case in fact. Deliberately not designing true to life character seems to be the gimmick among tube amp designers especially. Just because of the well known quirky expectations of their market base. From what I gather, tubes sounding closer to ss is more trendy than vise versa. If the sound is 'balanced' as you say, it will display serious speed and attack...like reality does. If that's not what you want, it's okay to be honest and not obfuscate or try to reinvent the English language. "
You asked the question and for some reason, it looks like you're not happy because I was able to answer it. You make up all this crap and back it up with guesses. It doesn't work that way, regardless of what you think. The only way you can legitimately challenge my findings is if you have some of your own to back yourself up with. You can't do that. I've owned the amp and based my findings on reality. If you want someone to listen to you and take you seriously, then put your money where your mouth is and get one yourself. But we all know that's not going to happen, so keep reading the magazines, come up with more useless crap and keep us entertained.
"Btw, a soa amp will always display serious speed and attack."
Btw, more useless crap. Audio Note, Shindo, Jadis... The list goes on, and no, I'm not explaining it to you when you pretend like you don't understand. Everyone else will. (although you probably wouldn't be pretending) |
"02-11-15: Csontos
Zd, I do own a few amps. You clearly favor tubes so I responded commensurate with your bent. Not everyone considers your subjective view as reality btw. I'm perfectly happy with your answer. I just think it's bullshit, that's all. I expected as much. "
Well, it took you long enough. Trying to figure out how to "win" and make yourself look good. Take as long as you want, but you'll never get it. The secret to winning an argument is don't argue. Just use facts. Why? Because you can't argue facts. Facts are facts regardless of what you, me or anyone else says. Can't do a thing about it.
I referenced a Musical Fidelity A3.5. You can't agree or disagree with me, subjective or otherwise. Why? Again, because you never heard one. Its a factual statement. Neither one of can change it. But we know you'll try and fail anyway.
Also, wrong on my preference for tubes. I knew you wouldn't get the example. I don't have a preference for anything, I just pick what I think sounds best (from actually listening, not guesswork). Right now, my entire main system is all SS. |
"Have you forgotten that I'm never wrong?"
Well, no. In order to do that, I would have to believe it before I forget it. Regardless, the statement if factually incorrect. I proved that in my last post. |
"define/describe amplifier 'speed' from a subjective/sonic perspective. As yet, no one has given a description of what a 'fast' amp sounds like in comparison to something unremarkable."
If you recall, you did ask this question a few days ago. I did my best to give you an answer and you got mad at me because of it. Have another look.
"02-09-15: Csontos
I think it would be useful to get a subjective description of just what the attributes of a 'fast' amp are sonically. What does speed sound like in an amp in comparison to mediocrity? Anyone?"
"All components contribute to a systems illusion of speed, so its hard to isolate just the amp. But overall, from a subjective perspective, you need to listen to how the system is reproducing the attack, resonance and decay of whatever instruments are on the recording. When the attack, or leading edge of a note is being highlighted more so than the other 2, you'll probably interpret that as speed, or PRAT."
"02-09-15: Csontos
Can you give an example of an amp that is outstanding in this regard?"
"I bought a Musical Fidelity A3.5 integrated. It had way too much attack, or speed. So much so, that unless you have a really dull sounding system that needs a band aid fix like that, it just wears you down and starts to sound like a gimmick. Its kind of hard to find an example like that any more, because most designers have been trying to get their designs to have more of a balanced sound to them. And for the most part, they've been successful. Tube designers try to get they're gear to have more SS qualities, and SS designers trying to get some tube aspects in their designs. That type of thing.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
And for those answers, I got this.
"02-10-15: Csontos
Zd, I would think the opposite is the case in fact. Deliberately not designing true to life character seems to be the gimmick among tube amp designers especially. Just because of the well known quirky expectations of their market base. From what I gather, tubes sounding closer to ss is more trendy than vise versa. If the sound is 'balanced' as you say, it will display serious speed and attack...like reality does. If that's not what you want, it's okay to be honest and not obfuscate or try to reinvent the English language. "
"02-11-15: Csontos
Zd, I do own a few amps. You clearly favor tubes so I responded commensurate with your bent. Not everyone considers your subjective view as reality btw. I'm perfectly happy with your answer. I just think it's bullshit, that's all. I expected as much."
To sum up, you asked for a subjective opinion and I gave you one. Then you asked me for an example, so I gave you one. What exactly do you think the word subjective means? Maybe we don't think its the same thing. If someone else dares to give you an answer, are you going to attack them as well? |
"02-19-15: Csontos
But there's another question that hasn't come up and that's 'how much of an influence does a pre amp have in perceived speed'?"
Actually, I did bring that up. lol. All components in the system have an effect on a systems "speed". A good example is Naim because they are associated with the whole PRAT issue. I spoke to them and asked them about this and they suggested that I start off with a preamp if I really wanted to see what the Naim sound was all about. Ultimately, Naim wasn't for me, but its a good example of how other components effect a systems speed. When I said in my other post my MF integrated had a sound that was kind of like a "gimmick", for lack of a better term, there was just too much attack. It definitely had the speed that is a big part of the PRAT sound, but the sound fell short because there was no foundation to the music. For a more complete sound, and not necessarily just speed on the attack, but tempered with resonance and decay, some good examples would be my old ARC VT-100 and Quicksilver V-4's for tubes, and for SS, Ayre is the best I've heard in this respect. With these products, they components sense of speed is balanced with other qualities that give a more complete sound. |
"02-24-15: Atmasphere
We've had a polarity switch on our preamps since 1989. Its only audible if the recording uses a minimalist microphone technique, like two mics to record everything."
It took me years to finally hear that. Everyone always said that it was a bass issue, but to me, it sounds like a slight timing issue.
" Does anyone out there appreciate appropriate polarity for the recording?"
Its kind of hard to when the recording engineers don't. Its about a 50/50 split. |
"2)I disagree with the notion of a 50/50 split, because I believe that for most recordings neither setting can be thought of as being correct."
Just to clarify that, the 50/50 split seems to be the established mainstream opinion. Personally, I can't verify it, and think of as a rule of thumb that most people seem to go by.
"02-24-15: Ptss
I also believe most natural instrument music lovers will learn to appreciate the difference very easily when they have some coaching by a knowledgeable person who is not simply interested in selling a piece of equipment."
We may not be talking about the same thing. The polarity inversion that I'm referring to is a very subtle difference. So subtle in fact, that even though I could hear something happening when I invert phase, I couldn't even decide what position sounded better. Only in the last few years, and with a very detailed system that has excellent overall timing, can I reliably hear differences. But the difference is still fairly small.
Just to add one small thing to the discussion, most good CD players and digital separates also have a phase invert switch. So if your preamp doesn't have that feature, your digital source may. |
"02-25-15: Ptss
Also. I don't dispute That the recording process isn't often flawed; but I find the majority of classical and jazz very good. The people doing the recordings are serious about doing a good job."
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply the recording process was flawed. The way I've always understood it is that its like a coin toss. About half of the recordings are one polarity, and the other half are the opposite. But that doesn't mean that there's anything with the recording, and the "fix" would be to just hit the polarity button on your preamp or source. |
"02-25-15: Ptss
ZD. Again, perhaps for you to easily appreciate the difference you should invite me to tune up your system."
I don't doubt at all that this issue is something that you can easily hear. But we don't all perceive what we hear the same way. For example, we can both listen to the same system and have very different opinions on it. It doesn't mean one of us has more skill, or is a better listener, etc..., or anything else like that. We develop different priorities as to what we hear and don't hear, and if we like it or not. For me personally, I'm very sensitive to high frequencies. If the highs are not just as I like them, I can't listen to it. But, I know people that are just the opposite. They're not so picky about HF's, but they are with low frequencies. If the bass is not just right for them, they can't listen to the speaker. If I listen to that same system, though, I probably won't hear anything wrong with the bass. Or if I do, I would probably be able to tolerate it.
So, going back to our discussion on polarity, that may be one of the qualities that you're sensitive to. When we both listen to the same system, we can only focus on so much, but what we focus on may be completely different. The funny part of it all, is that we're not always aware that this type of thing is going on. And that's exactly why you really can't "force" recommend components to others like so often is the case. (Not accusing anyone here of that. Its just a general comment from what I see on this site overall.) |
"03-04-15: Omsed
"XXX brand is 'fast' and that makes it better" is just so much marketing hype. I find that threads like this have little to do with listening to music and more to do with wanting to fall in love with gear based on notions that some company puts forth to grab potential buyers. You plant an idea in someone's head, some meaningful percentage of folks will perceive that artifact due to the power of suggestion."
It seems to me that most of us are trying to describe speed as we hear it. I don't know how that equates to marketing hype, other than to try and avoid it. If you look back to some of the earlier posts, Csontos asked for a subjective description/definition of speed, and I suspect that most of us are just trying to answer that question. |
