Anyone listen to Zu Audio's Definition Mk3?

Oops..."neorotic" was a spell error and not a reference to new eroticism. ;-). Please replace with "neurotic"

Well...I've placed my order for the Mk.IV's. I've been using the Mk 1.9's for the last ~3.5 years. I've been using Atma-Sphere M60's and love the purity, speed and transparency. Hope the MkIV's take me even farther down the path to musical bliss?!

One area I haven't been able to get "right" in my current room is the truly 3D holographic effect. It's really the only remaining "high end attribute" that I'm missing. I've had this attribute in a couple of other systems/rooms (i.e. Avalon Eclipse/Manley Neo Classic and, not quite to same degree, Druids/Atma M60's). Do the Mk IV's improve upon the previous models regarding this attribute?

Nearly 10 years ago I heard a most amazing thing at a dealer in Indy. Speakers were Proac Response models ( not sure which model, around $7000), driven by Cary 805's. I swear I could make out the lips, neck, body, legs of musicians...it was so "dense, palpable, and 3D" that it really was hard to believe. Is this kind of experience possible with the Mk IV's and a proper SET?

I have tried a Melody 300B SET (~8w/ch) with my Def 1.5's before upgrading them to 1.9 and it was a huge disappointment. They really sounded like there were pillows blocking the speaker compared to my Atma-Sphere's. The Atma's were far better in every attribute...by a large margin. I do not intend to ever give up my M60's, but am curious if an 845 SET with the Def Mk IV's has the potential to duplicate what I heard with the Proac/Cary 805?

Audio language seems to be fairly inadequate to describe how each of us hears/feels the music. I apologize if my ramble is unclear...mostly just excited to hear what the MkIV's can do and wonder if that last unfulfilled audio attribute can be integrated with all the others fully sated by my current Definition system? I refuse to trade any of the strengths of my current system though!

Thanks for any guidance!

Agear, I'm fully aware that I'm seeking the "Holy Grail"...aren't we all? I've been on the merry-go-round for 25 years, chasing one more elusive "attribute", usually at the expense of another. With the Zu's, however, I don't feel any desire to risk all the wonderful, music-serving attributes for the "possibility" of acquiring that last one. If this comes across as unnecessarily cautious, it's because my audio journey has highlighted how easy it is to find myself back on that "merry-go-round".

I would love to hear Glory's experience regarding that final attribute. Why has Audiogon eliminated the ability to e-mail a fellow member?

I do remain skeptical that my path lies through solid state amplication for a variety of reasons, but I'm cautiously open-minded to it. Keeping the hyperbole to a minimum, more often than not (though not always), tube amplication has brought me closer to my music-serving attributes, whereas quality solid state more often required the sacrifice of at least one music-serving attribute to gain another.

A recent example: I purchased a pair of Clayton M200's (pure class A, 200w/ch) to use as a "change up". It's certainly overkill from a power standpoint with the Definitions, but by most accounts the Clayton amps are truly outstanding SS amps. There is no grain that I'm overtly aware of, harmonics are very good, bass control and impact is impressive, highs are open and extended. Yet as good as the Claytons are and given the clearly superior and visceral bass, I "feel" that I'm giving something up in comparison to the Atma's. It could be (and probably is) simply that the Atma's are a better match for THIS speaker, but I've had many more experiences similar to this over the years.

Agree that room and setup are critical and have had mixed results via better PC's and cables. I currently use PS Audio Premier for all but amps, though sometimes plug the M60's into it as well with no noticeable deleterious effects.

>Charles1dad - "In your case OTL seems to fit your desires, for Phil and myself SET is preferred"<

To this point, OTL has been my preference on appropriate speakers; however, in fairness, I have only tried one SET with the Zu's in my room. The Melody 300B SET mono's were definitely not an improvement even over a modest Marantz SS integrated, much less the Atma M60's. That being said, the most beguiling sound I've heard was in a dealer showroom with Proac Response speakers and Cary 805 SET. So, I suppose I'm holding out hope that the right SET can bring me even closer to the music?

>Agear - "By 'holy grail', I did not imply your quest for 3D tangibility was mystical or unrealistic"<

I think I know what you meant, though it's elusiveness for most of us certainly makes it seem "mystical" at times.

>Agear - "I too have made inept, stumbling attempts at system building while chasing various sonic attributes"<

I could not have described my own pursuits at times any better. It is this concern with "sonic dead-ends" that makes me cautious about wholesale changes. Within the last few months, I toyed with the idea of buying the Coincident Pure Reference Extreme. On paper, it seems to have much of what seems to work for me (easy to drive, full range, simple crossovers) with the potential for improved 3D soundstaging and the possibility of finding the "holy grail" with the right amp. Unfortunately, I had to stop the insanity and recognize all the things that I absolutely love about the Zu's. The potential for chasing a few possibly better sonic attributes while unknowingly (at first) giving up some of what I love from the Zu's is too big of a risk for me. Make sense?

>213Cobra - "Start with your Atmasphere and draw your own conclusions. It's a great combination to begin knowing your next move, if one is warranted"<

If I understand you correctly, you are saying to experiment with amps, presumably good SET's, and determine if this is the correct path for me? That is, indeed, what I am thinking of doing.

Phil, I've read much of what you have written on the Audion 845 Black Shadows in this and other threads. I've researched Sophia, Audion, Cary, and Mastersound 845 amps fairly thoroughly. From what I have read, I think the Audion may be closest to what I'm looking for, IF SET is what I'm looking for. Does that make sense? Are there any distributors in the US that would allow an in-home audition?

>>Agear wrote: <<

All that aside, I was wondering about what you are "not" hearing currently vis–à–vis your sonic memory of that glorious sound? Is there a single variable that you are able to pin down? Do you think the Atmas are a tad too lean? Your source? Do cables make much of an impact in your system? Speaker positioning have much influence (as Phil suggested)?

The Zu/Atma-Sphere combo was a huge step forward in the area of "tone density", dynamic and tonal shadings, and macrodynamics compared to previous systems. That said, and ignoring for the moment the aural 3D processing Phil mentioned, I "think" that what is missing is additional weight/density in the lower midrange (WITHOUT lessening transparency) and additional "air" on the top. Of course, I'm not entirely sure since there are likely other elements that conspired to give that "glorious" illusion in addition to the frequency related ones mentioned above. I'm hopeful that the MkIV's add some of the "air" and I'm considering if the appropriate SET can provide the lower midrange tone density without lessening transparency.

For power I have a dedicated 100 amp subpanel with 4 dedicated lines and run a PS Audio Premier as well. I did the dedicated subpanel with an eye toward possibly placing an isolation transformer between the main panel and the sub, but have not followed through with that option yet. Not entirely sure how to handle grounding...main reason I haven't completed that.

My source is the Metric Halo LIO-8, fed by a Macbook pro and Pure Music software. I've had alot of sources prior, but the three best were: MH LIO-8, Berkely Alpha, Esoteric UX-3 with Statement mod from Steve Huntley of Great Northern sound.

In a head-to-head in my current system, the LIO-8 was far superior to the Berkely Alpha, both fed directly to the Atma Amps. The Berkely was fed by my Windows XP music server via Media Monkey and Lynx AES Digital Soundcard (all .wav files) and the LIO-8 was fed by Macbook Pro via Firewire and itunes/Puremusic (all .aiff files converted from .wav files above).

The Esoteric was outstanding in a prior system, but I had sold it before going the Zu route so no comparison was possible. Incidently, I did extensive testing with the Berkely both in to my Atma-Sphere MP1 MkIII preamp and direct to the amps and found direct to the amps superior. This was the first time in my experience that direct to amps was superior to having a good preamp in between. As a result, I sold my MP1 and freed up some cash...always nice.

The system is not too sensitive to cables, though differences are clearly heard. Just tried some Iso-Clean speaker cables and after a month or so of "playing" decided my Zu Ibis are preferable. The Iso-Clean cables did bass outstandingly, but seemed to lose a smidge of inner detail and top-end air in comparison...not a direction I want to move.

Positioning makes a significant difference in my room, but not as much as some other systems in other rooms that I've had. In a way this makes it harder because differences between great and ok are not as evident so tend to not spend as much time worrying about it (good and bad I suppose, but mostly good from my standpoint...less audio neurosis).

>Gopher wrote:

That was the area to my ears atma was weakest. Transparency, resolution, low bass extension--I'll concede those things.

I use the M60's and if you read carefully I said the "Zu/Atma system" moved me in that direction, not Atma alone. And I suppose I should qualify that technically the Melody 300B SET monos I owned had greater "tone density", but were thick as mud and severely lacking in transparency relative to the Atma's. I wouldn't say the Melodys moved me in the direction of "tone density" because they gave up so many other things most of us, but especially me, value in our music listening.

Keithr, do the Sophia's still use the 206 driver tube? Are the amps tube rectified or SS...do you have an opinion on the differences between the two? Having a difficult time finding up to date info on the Sophia's. Thanks!

Agear wrote:

do you think reinserting a tube pre-amp would ameliorate some of what you are missing, particularly lower midrange density? I know you have already done that experiment, but...

Well...I was fully in your camp on this issue several years ago. My friend and I listened extensively with and without a good PRE in the system with both my Audio Aero Capitole CD player and his Resolution Audio Opus with Ref mod from Steve Huntley at GNSC. At that time, even with the SS Rowland Capri pre, we both preferred the sound WITH a pre in the chain.

With the Berkeley, using an Atma-Sphere MP1 MkIII pre with V-caps and caddock resistor package, we both preferred the Berkeley direct. What's more, anyone who has lived with an MP1 MkIII will attest that it is incredibly transparent, musical, bold, neutral with the exception of a slight emphasis in the lower midrange, yet we both preferred it direct.

Agear wrote:

I know many feel that the Metric Halo and Berkeley dacs are too "digital" sounding and converted to tubed products like the Lampizator.

I could understand how one might come to that conclusion, particularly if they use some of the "ultra resolution" type speakers/equipment that masquerade as "neutral", but sound leached of body to me. I don't find either the Berkeley or the LIO-8 remotely "digital" sounding, but the LIO-8 was more "real" sounding to me. I happen to agree with Barry Diament that the use of a switching PS is not a disqualifier for top performance. Every design is greater than - or lesser than - a sum of it's parts. BJ (Metric Halo) knows his stuff and I judge this solely on the quality of sound it delivers. Trust me...I have a little vanity in me and if the LIO-8 wasn't outstanding, I'd have irresistible desires to find a more "high-end looking" source. It is butt-ugly, but it sounds wonderful!

Keithr, you mentioned Sophia's "latest chassis". Have they changed the "form factor" from wider and shallow to narrower and deeper? Thanks!

Glory wrote:

Atma amp moved me closer to real live music than any of the SET amps I had in my system. The MH 8 is a great dac.

Agreed on MH LIO-8. I've only experimented with the Melody 300B SET mono's and, at least in direct comparison to the Atma's, the lack of transparency, lack of speed, and general "mudiness" was not for me. On the other hand, prior to buying the Atma's and Definitions, the Melody was a nice amp on my Druids, bettering my Marantz integrated in most areas, but not all. On the Definitions, unfortunately, it was quite a different outcome. Perhaps they just couldn't handle the 6 ohm nom load of the Defs, yet the Atma's could? Go figure.

Glory wrote:

I found the MM running with a LPS to be a noisy little guy killing all my attempts to go to the next level. I had to by a Lampizator transport that took the MM out of transport duties. Now all is dead silent in the system.

I'm not following this? What is the MM and the LPS?

Glory wrote:

To complete the final piece I grabbed a Dale Pitcher Power Bridge that was, to me, a true breakthrough in AC power supply. The Power Bridge makes my Def2 the Def10 SE SA. It runs my transport/Dac.

The Power Bridge runs only your transport and Dac? And it made this big of a difference in your opinion? Have you ever tried the PS Audio Premier or other reconstituted power devices? Seems from a noise/isolation standpoint this would be far more effective? Color me curious.

Gopher wrote:

Thanks for clarifying, I can appreciate those observations. Interestingly, I'm using a Melody KT88 integrated myself these days which I like, but it is cleaner, more linear tube then the 300B, imo.

One thing I have overlooked is that the Melody 300B did work well with my Zu Druids, a 12 ohm load versus the Def's 6 ohm load. I never did do a Atma/Melody comparison on the Druids, but my gut tells me the "winner" would have been the same, though perhaps not to the same degree...not really sure.

Gopher wrote:

Enjoy your pairing! There is nothing wrong with Atma-sphere. :)

I hope I didn't come across as argumentative? I do notice that when responding to threads with an ipad my tone sometimes comes across like an impetuous child. It takes so long to type with a single finger (or two) that I tend to shorten, and perhaps, coarsen, my words.

SpiritofMusic, when do you expect your Def4's and when do you plan to audition the Audion or Berning amps?

Glory, thanks for the clarification...if I was on Computeraudiophile, I'd have picked it up immediately, but since so few here seem to use computer audio (yet) the acronyms went right over my head.

Thank you to all who have answered my questions...lots to digest. I plan to work on some basics, some amp stands (Atma's are setting on a cherry shelf which is laying flat on a tile floor, and speaker positioning as I wait for my Def4's (probably a month or so).

After I optimize what I have and enjoy/get familiar with the Def4's for awhile, I will inquire about auditioning an Audion or Sophia 845 based SET. This seems to be a fundamental question that begs an answer...will the right SET do it for me or am I a hopeless OTL lover? If SET is it, I probably won't sell my Atma-Sphere's...just really loved what they've done for my musical enjoyment in so many different systems. I'll keep them as my 2nd set of amps should I desire a "change up" from time to time...unless, of course, the SET experience is truly paradigm-shifting I suppose. Never know till you try.

As some of you receive your Def4's, please keep posting here...we've got some great commentary already from GSM, Cobra, and others. It'd be a shame if others didn't share their thoughts/experiences with the Def4's. Besides...I'm stuck getting my fix vicariously for at least a month...help an audiophool out, would ya?!! :-)

Keithr wrote:

The amps are the only ones I've heard that do strings as well as Shindo--which says something. SET spooky midrange of course is there. Only negative thus far is a bit of midrange glare, which I believe is Chinese tube related. Have a pair of RCA NOS 6ns7s that I will drop in soon

When you say they do strings well, are you referring to bowed, or plucked, solo or massed? I'm curious if the langauge you used is meant to convey excellence in timbre, harmonic richness, transient capability, inner detail or possibly all of the above and more I didn't list?

How bad is the midrange glare? Definitely curious if this is wholly a tube issue or just mostly mitigated by changing tubes.

In an earlier post you made, you mentioned you had tried the Audion Black Shadows, but they were very noisy. Phil then replied stating the problem was found to be a failed bridged rectifier (or something similar?) and stated another audition would be undertaken along with the Sophia? Do you still plan to compare the Sophia and the Audion? Thanks!

KeithR, have you experimented with 6SN7's in the Sophia's to eliminate the slight midrange glare? How are they sounding with the Def's?

Thanks

Definition Mk IV's are in the house!! First listen (without a minute of burnin) showed great potential; however, they have a tightness that is not natural (burnin issue I assume?).

I had been doing a great deal of listening to my previous Mk1.9's lately as I tried several different amps (more on that later) so the differences between the speakers are REALLY obvious to me. Inner detail, microdynamics, macrodynamics, and top-to-bottom coherency are all improved upon in dramatic fashion compared to the 1.9's. The top treble, even in this unplayed state is more open and expansive.

I will say the sound quality is changing rapidly in the first few hours of play...not really better, however. Seems bass has gone AWOL (receded in level relative to rest of frequencies), the sound is punchier (they were punchy from the beginning so this is not necessarily "better"). All told, my impression is that these speakers need hours of play before they start revealing all that great inner detail and micro/macro dynamics in a natural way, rather than a punchy way. Anybody else notice this during the early hours of play? How long before they "relax" a bit?

I have them playing music at a moderate volume level and will continue to play them throughout the day and weekend straight. Does anyone have an informed opinion on whether playing the Purist Audio Burnin CD for extended periods will help hasten the burnin?

Wow…this thread has been “all around this world” to borrow a Grateful Dead song title. I could say the same for the 2 months just passed since I received my DefIV’s. I won’t bore you with the non audio related and only a little on the non- Zu Def IV related (some amp trials)

To cut to the chase and fill in the details later, I am listening to some wonderful sound coming from my Def IV’s as I type. It is open, coherent, surprisingly more transparent than my already transparent 1.9’s, beautifully sweet, and most importantly, musically engaging. Sean just left my house an hour ago after having hand delivered a new pair of Def IV’s and picked up my old pair of Def IV’s.

My original pair had a problem with the Hypex amp in one of the speakers. I can’t say enough about Sean’s commitment to making sure the problem was solved and that I was happy with the results. He didn’t need to build and deliver a new pair for me, but he insisted that this would give him the peace of mind that I was fully satisfied with the speaker. I can say unequivocally…I am more than satisfied with the speaker. And Sean’s efforts to fix the problem and ensure I was happy as a customer means a great deal to me. I was already a “Zu fan”, loving my Druids and prior 1.9’s , but this speaker, the Def IV, and Sean’s efforts and communication throughout this period have made me a “Zu Groupie”! Great guy! Great company! Truly Great Sound!

Hours after I first posted in May about receiving my Def IV’s I noticed a low frequency oscillation with no signal going to it. I measured it electrically at the speaker binding posts with my Fluke and found it to vary from ~16 Hz to ~20 Hz depending on parametric EQ settings. Amplitude was as high as 5 Volts at full volume setting on the Hypex. Of course, at this level, the doors and walls in the room would visibly shake. What I was hearing was a somewhat higher frequency than that, though below a 60Hz AC. If I had to guess, what I was hearing was the 2nd and/or 3rd harmonic of what I measured.

The result of all this is that whether for psychological reasons or physical reasons, I had a difficult time enjoying the sound, even with the EQ settings down low enough to not induce a measurable oscillation in that speaker. In direct comparison with my 1.9’s, the 4’s lost and lost consistently. That is definitely not the case today…the 4’s are a very significant upgrade over my 1.9’s!

While I waited for Sean to build and deliver a new pair, I listened to my 1.9’s. I took the time to determine if SET amps would move me in a direction I preferred compared to my Atma-Sphere M60’s. I bought a used Cary 805AE from a dealer in Indy…it definitely was not my cup of tea and certainly not worth experimenting with different tubes to improve it. Sold it and lost a bunch of money . I demo’d old chassis Sophia 845 SET monoblocks and there was much to like, even a hint of midrange magic. Alas, it seemed to impart too much of its own signature, a signature that included a bit of upper midrange glare, for me to be happy long term. It didn’t help that the mfg insisted that I not try an 845B tube (“amps are tuned for the A tube, don’t change tubes”) and not to worry about biasing the tubes (you cannot bias the old chassis amps without going inside the chassis), so I returned the amps to Sophia. I am still very curious about the Audion Black Shadows and also the ASR Emitter Exclusive, so I may seek answers there in the future. However, given how wonderful the sound is through the Atma-Sphere / Def IV right now, I am, indeed, content for the moment.

Glory – agreed re: Atma-Sphere amps. I’ve owned the MA1 MkII.2 ~8 years ago and liked them for what they did. I upgraded to the MA1 MkIII’s (after a brief run with high power SS, Parasound JC1’s) and loved the added finesse and a touch of sweetness on top the MkIII brought. With the M60 MkIII.1’s and Cu-foil Teflon Vcaps, driving a relatively easy load in the Def 1.9 and now Def4, there is much to love about their sonic merits. Comments from you and others regarding the ASR are intriguing. In time, I hope to be able to hear them to determine for myself whether they possess the combination of unique attributes that “float my boat”.

213Cobra – your comments are interesting re: Audion/Sophia amps. What I noticed with the Sophia’s in reference to the M60’s is that they were a little sweeter, had a little more “density” to the midrange tone, and a little more sense of coherency or “cut from the same cloth” sound (at least from upper bass to treble); however, the latter seemed, upon further listening, to be a coloration imparted on all music and ultimately became a bit of a distraction. There was also something going on in the upper midrange / lower treble that showed up on some tracks. Wished the mfg would have been more supportive of a tube roll to see if it addressed this issue, but he was not and I had limited time to evaluate them. The Atma M60’s had significantly more drive, a larger soundstage, more air on top & weight on bottom, though none of the aforementioned was perceived as lacking while listening to the Sophia’s. I have heard that the Sophia’s have a lower noise floor than the Audion’s? Although noise didn’t significantly factor into my evaluation of the Sophia, I wouldn’t want it to be too much higher. Can this be a distraction with the Audions?

Agear – thanks for your explanation of how you came to your current views regarding amplifiers. I always find the path one has charted in this hobby (as well as the associated knowledge and relationships) to be illuminating. It seems some sections of the path are almost universally crossed, yet depending on too many variables to list, each of us, at any given time, find ourselves at a unique point on our own path. And as such, each of us are differently inclined at any given moment to move in one direction or another. Enough philosophizing. I am curious about the NCore from Hypex…read one of their white papers and, although over my head technically, was interesting nonetheless. There seems to be enthusiasm, if not true potential, in the class D approach. Consider me a casually interested bystander at the moment though.

SpiritofMusic – dude, you are going to be stoked with your new Def IV’s!! I listened/watched several concerts last night with my wife. Sound quality from digital out of the Oppo Blue Ray to the LIO-8 has never been as good as firewire from MBP to LIO-8, yet the sound quality improvement with the Def IV’s was dramatic. My wife is generally skeptical and not terribly interested in “sound quality”, yet she was visibly excited about what she was hearing and how “smooth” it is and “voices are so much clearer” and “I can hear the other instruments better” and “I hear what that bass guy is playing now” and “I could listen all night at this volume…it doesn’t hurt after awhile like before” It’s definitely a winner in our household and to echo what others have said…it is a SIGNIFICANT upgrade from the 1.9.

Thanks David...your explanation was helpful. I can't seem to find any images of the bottom of the Def 4's, but what I can see of the sub/plinth from the side it looks like there would be plenty of space in the corners for the 2 spike end, but that the single spike side would necessarily not be in a corner and have considerably less area...think circle circumscribing the inside of a square; the corners of the square have spare area, whereas the midpoint of the side would be touching the circle (very close anyway). Is this correct?

Markpao - thanks. It does confirm what I expected...not alot of room for the 3rd spike. Oh wait...there's an aluminum "grating" on the bottom. Is that correct? That would alleviate a fair amount of concern.

Thanks.

Dave - how do you manage to place the Def4's on the Sistrum sp-101 stand? Is there a stable and large enough surface on the bottom plinth to allow placement on the 3 spikes? It seems it could be a bit unhealthy for the sub if its misplaced or knocked off the spikes? Am I missing something?

Thanks.

Hi Dave - yeah I was directing the question to you...we've spoke before re. Def4's and other system building/tweaking subjects about 9 months ago.

My admittedly neorotic concern is that when I bear-hug the Def's and set them on the spikes my aim is off and the spike comes in contact with the surround of the sub driver. Or, a too aggressive bump or shove (for positioning) causes the speaker to slide slightly on the spikes and punctures the sub surround. Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly how open (and vulnerable) the sub driver is or how much flat usable space is on the bottom plinth?

Thanks,

Jordan