@quickjack1234 Check out Magico's Titan subwoofer, then check out Martin Logan's Balanced Force 212 and 210. These three are the best commercial subs out there. They all still need a proper active crossover.
Anyone else excited for this Borresen subwoofer?!!!
It seems quite unique...(as one might expect from Michael B).
Borresen Subwoofer - Michael Borresen Interview
Showing 8 responses by mijostyn
@phusis and @atmasphere are making a lot of sense here. Most of the distortion created by subwoofers is not coming from their drivers, but from their enclosures, the room and poor integration. Using large and or multiple drivers that have well designed, well ventilated motors is the best way to eliminate distortion on the part of the drivers by minimizing excursions, keeping the driver's suspension well within its linear zone. After that it is all about enclosure design and construction, the layout of the room, the use of multiple units against walls and in corners and proper (digital) bass management. It is difficult to determine what crossover and slope are going to sound best in any given system. It is a trial and error process. You have to have an assortment of choices to find the right solution. This is next to impossible in the analog domain and no problem in the digital domain. In my current setup I tried 5 different solutions before finding the right one, 120Hz @ 84 dB/oct. both high and low pass filters. 120Hz works for me because the subs I use are clean up to 200Hz, they are stereo, taking 120Hz and under away from my main speakers, full range ESLs, cleans them up dramatically and increases headroom by at least 10dB. I get away with it because I can utilize a very steep digital filters which keeps the subs out of the midrange. I did not know this was going to work until I tried it. There are multiple methods to integrate subwoofers. Most of them I would characterize as unfortunate. Subwoofers still have a terrible reputation in some circles because of this problem. Using analog bass management, it is easier to make a system sound worse with subwoofers than better. |
@deep_333 You are not understanding the physics of the situation deep. A powerful amp with a very low output impedance completely controls to motion of a well designed subwoofer driver. Music (sound) is not a series of stop and go traffic lights. It is a conglomeration of sine waves. As soon as the cone passes the equilibrium point it starts decelerating gradually until it passes the zenith then it accelerates toward the equilibrium point again. The cone never stops, it just changes direction all under control of the amplifier and powerful magnets. Subwoofers do need help in other areas to provide that "you are there" intensity of a live performance, but servo control is not one of them. I owned a pair of Velodynes once. One of them is serving as a base for a fish tank. |
@deep_333 I am deep into control systems. I have been using room control and digital bass management since 1996 not to mention I design and build my own subwoofers. One of today's excellent low distortion subwoofer drivers 12" and larger, used in adequate quantities for the environment have no need for servo anything. |
@deep_333 What you just stated to @m-db is marketing hyperbole without any basis in reality. The right term is powerful bass. Powerful bass requires the ability to move a large volume of air in a controlled fashion. This generally means large or multiple drivers with powerful amplifiers that have extremely low output impedances. Most importantly it takes enclosures that do not resonate, rattle or shake. Servo drives are an excuse for poor and undersized drivers in crappy enclosures. Digital Room control and EQ are far more important features for bass management. Next, all of the brands I mentioned also make 4 channel preamps for stereo systems, 2 main speakers and 2 subwoofers. DEQX only makes preamps for stereo systems. All those brands you mentioned do not have the engineering capability to pull off preamps like the DEQX Pre8, the Trinnov Amethyst, the Anthem STR and the MiniDSP SHD series. Digital Bass Management is critical for adequate subwoofer performance. Without it you are living in the stone age. |
@m-db Yes, every last one. The phono stage is run balanced into a Lynx Hilo, a studio ADC/DAC/switcher/digital gain controller type thing. The Hilo is then connected to a DEQX Pre8 by an AES EBU cable. The DEQX is a new digital processor/preamp with a 4 way digital crossover, bass management, parametric EQ, room control and streaming via a Volumio processor. I use Qobuz. @phusis If you want accurate bass open baffle subwoofers are the last thing you want to do. You do need multiple drivers to get anywhere, but in a sealed system preferable arrayed as a line source. Line sources project power and minimize room interaction. The problem as always with subwoofers is putting the drivers into enclosures that are not musical instruments. |
@deep_333 Not at all! Many units out there give you the ability to adjust delay. The Aussies call it launch time. These include units by DEQX, Anthem, MiniDSP and Trinnov. It is an absolute necessity for sub integration. |
It is a copy of the Sonos subwoofer and its very low end response below 30Hz will be limited although digital signal processing can improve this a little. The person speaking made one large mistake. He called the speaker a dipole. It is not a dipole, it is a bipole. With dipoles the rear wave is 180 degrees out of phase with the front wave. with Bipoles the rear wave is in phase with the front wave. Slot loading the drivers can produce impressive results. The problem with these enclosures is the four large side panels and the top and bottom will be difficult to control and will tend to resonate. It is certainly a design worth listening to. Like any subwoofer a 2 way crossover is required. I do not like smaller drivers trying to make low bass. They tend to have higher resonance frequencies which cuts off their response below and they are not in any way "faster" than larger drivers that do not have to work nearly as hard producing very low frequencies. The smaller driver tends to have higher distortion levels. There is no replacement for displacement. Subwoofers never fair better in the middle of the room. This is where their efficiency is lowest. Up against a wall you get 3dB better efficiency. In a corner 6dB better. This means lower levels of distortion. Some will say this increases room interaction, not if you use two or more subwoofers. If you form a line array with subwoofers you can minimize room interaction. My own feelings about the subject are here https://imgur.com/user/mijostyn/posts |