Anybody out there re-cantilever their cartridge with a Soundsmith Contact Line diamond ?

I thought I was in the clear, but now I’m informed that a Contact Line Diamond stylus with three times the contact area, picks up a ton of surface noise off the record. So much so that the surface noise can become forward on all but the most pristine records. So much so that the surface noise becomes intrusive.

If this statement could be true then the best stylus would be Conical, but it’s the worst ever. So the advanced profiles will bring you the music, accuracy and less record wear. However, comparing to MicroRidge his Contact Line is not an improvement, but also very nice profile.

When people proceed with SoundSmith retipping i would ask why not just buy SoundSmith MI cartridge instead ? Only his own cartridges were designed for use his cantilevers/diamonds. Cartridges from other manufacturers designed for use with different cantilevers/diamonds and it’s a complex question why "x" cartridge is better than "y" cartridge.

Your Dynavector is a $850 cartridge and you can buy plenty of amazing cartridges for the same price or even lower.

Maybe it’s time to try something different? Or you are so in love with DV-20x2 ? SoundSmith can definitely bring your Dyna back to life, but if you like his vision i would look at his own cartridges instead (they are reasonably priced and he could service them at very low price too).

Audiogon has no shortage of naysayers who will defend “manufacturers’ original” against everything.

As much as a bunch of people who will always claim that refurbished cartridge is better than the original. So why do we need the originals if refurbished always better ?

When i ask those guys they can’t compare side to side (at the same time) the original versus same model refurbished. This is a problem. Normally people biased by the fact that their broken cart is back to life for less than the original manufacturer charge for retip or exchange, and they are happy about it.

There are so many technical aspects in cartridge design that people don’t understand. Each cartridge is different. I believe that people at SoundSmith learned a lot to make their own cartridge. In terms of service this is definitely the best option. As for the sound quality i hope SoundSmith cartridge owners can chime in and make a comments.

As for "chakster", although your contributions maybe well intended, they do not address the question, you do not appear to have any personal experiences in dealing with Soundsmith’s work, therefore your input adds up to nothing but conjecture and a waste of everyone’s time including your own. Perhaps in the future you’ll consider directing your energies in less vacuous pursuits.

I believe my statemend does not hurt your feelings?

SoundSmith retipped many thousand cartridges from all over the world (from very old to brand new). Peter is one of the well known retippers, there are many in every part of the world.

I decided NOT to proceed with SoundSmith cantilever/stylus for my ex ZYX Premium 4D SB, because this cartridge has unique cantilever that no one can provide, there is no equal replacement from any retipper in the world. That cantilever was made exclusively for ZYX. This is one of the reson this cartridge cost $5000 and factory exchange (instead of retip) will cost 60% of the retail price. Why i did not proceed with relatively cheap (compared to ZYX factory exchange) SoundSmith service? See J.Carr quote below.

I have personal experience with another qualified and highly regarded retipper from another country, and i have compared retipped/refurbished cartridge to original cartridge (same model), i must say that the difference was huge and not in favor of refurbished cartridge. In my case one Boron Pipe cantilever was replaced with another (different) Boron Rod cantilever with the same stylus profile, but slightly different mass. So i will never ever retip/refurbish any cartridge. My cartridge was Technics 205c mk4 and it was MM cartridge, not MC. I have a few more different cartridges retipped/refurbished, never again!

If you don’t want to study the subject and all you need is some other members to tell you "yes, go for it" then it’s up to you. Your cartridge is not special and i think you can theoretically upgrade to a better cantilever and stylus.

But this is not universal rule and does not apply for every cartridge if you want to know the full story.

No one can explain better than J.Carr who is a (Lyra) cartridge designer himself. And this is what he said:

To retip a cartridge that was originally equipped with a stylus made by one manufacturer with one made by a different manufacturer is like rebuilding a Porsche engine with Jaguar pistons and crankshaft - the components used for rebuilding may be of high quality, but the design philosophy is rather different from the original.

Still, as one poster wrote above, changing only the stylus will alter the sound less than if the cantilever material is changed. When a cartridge is designed, the designer will consider the moving mass (sum of the stylus, cantilever and coils), the resonant character of the cantilever, and the (sonic) propagation velocity of the cantilever (affected by the cantilever’s mass and rigidity), then choose the suspension and dampers accordingly. If you change the cantilever material, you are effectively throwing the original designer’s calculations away.

Try to understand what a cartridge designer explained on this forum once.

Some people just don’t want to understand it, they just trying to save money of third-party service instead of original designer service. They can refurbish many cartridges making a very strange hybrids out of the genius original design. It may be impressive for you, but not for me, because i know what i’m talking about.

I would rather buy another original cartridge (and i did that many times) instead and it’s far more reasonable when the cartridge is about $800 like your Dyna.

For under $500 you could buy a Dynavector KARAT 23RS with unique short Ruby cantilever and Micro Ridge stylus. Here is the interview with Dynavector cartridge designer. I paid $400 for NOS on ebay last year. This is a whole new cartridge (much better than yours), but you will pay more to SoundSmith just for refurbishing (for new cantilever and new tip). Makes no sense to me, maybe it’s ok for you.

@thehorn Let me ask you a few questions:

If you, or anybody else, is so happy about refurbished cartridges then why not just buy all the cartridges broken for peanuts and send them to SoundSmith ? A broken ZYX cost $250 instead of $5000. Sounds like a good plan ? Just add $350-700 for SS rebuild. Genius ? Are you sure ?

Maybe some people just don’t understand or they don’t know yet that SoundSmith refurbished is "always better than the original" ? Right ? Or not ?

For those people J.Carr’s opinion is not the authority at all, they always think they know better than one of the most advanced cartridge designer (the owner of Lyra brand).

It’s funny to look at reaction of some members when they can read different opinion, but it’s important to hear both sides to make your own conclusion. This is why i am posting here. A few member doesn’t like it, but i don’t care.

Your cartridge available cheaper from other dealers and i hope you can make your own search, also a component retail price stated in this review as $850.

Anyone can buy a better cartridge even for $350-450, for example the Audio-Technica AT-ML150 OCC with Beryllium Cantilever (much better than Aluminum) and MicroLine stylus (one of the best ever). This is MM cartridge. In my previous post i have mentioned a LOMC cartridge for nearly the same price with exotic cantilever. Now you can compare SS prices for cantilevers like Boron or Ruby with the most advanced diamonds. They are more expensive than entirely new cartridges. Taking in count what J.Carr said i would never spend on refurbishing when the original (better) cartridges available for the same price.

This is my personal opinion as a cartridge collector. I’ve had 4 Dynavector cartridges, the last one on the shelf is KARAT DV-17D2. I have never seen a refurbished cartridge that can be better than the original cartridge (if we’re talking about good ones). Even if you can upgrade an inferior cartridge with better cantilever/stylus there will be another original cartridge that will much be better.

And yes, in this aspect i trust J.Carr more than to anyone else on here, becase they are not cartridge designers (unfortunately).

Cartridge refurbishing service is a compromise and a good business too, some vendors can do the quality job, some can’t. I’ve seen under macro lens many cartridges, including refurbished carts. SS can do the excellent job, but not better than the origina cartridge designer (when it comes to a good cartridges).  

For this reason i have recommended SoundSmith cartridges originally designed by Peter L. as a good alternative to any refurbished carts. You have to watch his lecture and you will see why he prefer an MI over MC.

For anyone who continually posting that all cantilevers are the same and comes from the same manufacturers, please show me a Boron cantilever like this one designed and patended by ZYX for their Airy, Premium 4D and related expensive models. I’m tired to post this example, but this is in fact a unique cantilever construction and none of the vendors can do the same, they does not have access to this cantilever type.

As for the vintage types of the cantilever i must say they are all different, there are many of them, they are not the same and made individually for specific cartridge designer. Even aluminum cantilevers are all different. Even when you change one Boron to another Boron they are not the same. Ruby, Diamond, Beryllium are also different, there are many different Ruby, different Beryllium, different Diamond cantilevers. And the diamonds are also completely different. So you have no idea what a retipper will use as an alternative even if the type of cantilever (or stylus profile) is the same as the original. Especially if the original cantilever was made 35 years ago and replaced to something made today. I’ve checked maybe more than 50 top cartridges from the 70s/80s (and some new carts too) under macro lens and took a pictures of each of them. Different manufacturer have been using different cantilevers and different diamonds.

Retippers normally limited to one of each type, no more (made today).
Some cheaper retippers can use donors (parts replaced from used cartridges).

Always buy an originals, don't bother with the crap

Good luck

@jsbail

Are you saying I can get a better sounding cartridge for $450 than I will get back from Soundsmith? I understand it will not sound identical the original, but I expect it will sound great. Why wouldn’t I do this?

This is the reason why i don’t understand people who buy LOMC cartridges from one manufacturer to rebuild them with a third party vendor. The logic behind this process is what i don’t understand. Lyra cartridge designer himself explained everything about it right on this forum.

The question is why do you need Lyra cartridge if you ended up with SoundSmith / Lyra hybrid ?

Why not just buy a SoundSmith cartridge instead ?
or another original Lyra cartridge if they can’t help you with your Lyra ?

Or why do you think a Lyra refurbished by SoundSmith is any better than original Lyra ?

If you think so why do you think you can’t find another cartridge that can be better than Lyra or Soundsmith ?

And yes, you can find a great NOS cartridges for $450-700, it can be very nice MM/MI or even LOMC

If you like LOMC i clearly remember what i paid for my NOS Dynavector Karat 23RS MR Ruby (Micro Ridge) sealed in the box, it was no more than $450 and it is a very nice LOMC in my opinion.

When I posted my sample to Axel he installed an new boron
cantilever and his ''nude Shibata'' instead of this ''remarkable''
ZYX cantilever. Why do you think that this way of installing the
stylus is better than usual? Or, to put this otherwise, why is one
extra tube necessary?

@nandric

I don't know why Nakatsuka-San designed this cantilever instead of using conventional cantilevers from suppliers. Maybe because he designed all the best MC cartridges in the past for brands like Monster Cable etc with conventional Boron cantilevers and after so many years he has found something better ? So many innovations in ZYX cartridges. 

When this stylus is wear off the new stylus can't be glued instead. So the whole new cantilever/stylus combo will be needed which is much more expensive than stylus only exchange. Or so I think because of my own experience.

So do you think he made it like that to serve his customers with a new cartridge instead ? The reason is to make in more difficult for re-tippers ? Maybe, i must say his cartridges are very expensive and he's free to choose a business model for him and his brand. 

BTW what I admire in Axel's work is his persistence to do his
job. As I wrote in my ''irreparable carts'' thread those glued
together plastic bodies have no ''entrance'' possibility to their
inside parts. How then should an ''retipper'' fix, say, the damping
 or the coils of such cart? Axel cut and drilled the body to get
inside. I don't believe other retipper will even try to do this.
BTW he was not able to fix this way my Sony XL 88 D.
This Sony was of the same ''plastic glued together body''.

It is because your personal relations with Axel, hope he's ok ? I think when re-tipper will accept a cartridge like that it will make his job even more expensive, still not guaranteed. 

When i read all these i think that taking in count all the risk and expenses on such exotic cartridges it is better to stay away from re-tippers, instead it is more logical to invest in original cartridge (same, next model or different one from another manufacturer). 

But i want to ask everybody:

If one must decide between ORIGINAL from the manufacturer and RE-TIPPED/re-furbished cartridge from someone else, which one would you get ? 

I think this is the answer for each of us. 

Some people just like to mess around with broken stuff. 

Regarding cartridges I've learned that many people on audiogon are happy to stick to one cartridge and even when it's broken they would like to invest even more in the dead horse. Some of them paid crazy amount of money to VdH to refurbish MM cartridges!

This is clearly not my philosophy. New or NOS original cartridge, even used original cartridge, is better than refurbished cartridge if this original cartridge is a good one. If it was a bad cartridge then maybe it is possible to upgrade it. This is what i think. 

And BTW Peter Ledermann keep telling us in every lecture than MI is better than all those LOMC... and he's the one who refurbished millions of cartridges. Having such unique experience do you believe he's able to design his own perfect cartridge? I think so ... But why then people sending him those broken cartridges from different manufacturers, it is some sort of sect? Stick to one cartridge forever because of what?  And when it's Lyra why not just listen to J.Carr's opinion about re-tipping process and the result ? No, they don't want to listen to J.Carr, they want SoundSmith, then why not just buy SoundSmith cartridge if Peter Ledermann always promote MI instead of LOMC ? 

And more important: Why people are buying very expensive cartridges if they can't afford manufacturer's service or exchange program? Why ?