Any one measured the EMI/RFI attenuation performance of audiophile power conditioners?

I am adding a separate column for frequency range specified/mentioned.

This will give a complete set of info which is as available on the product page/in manuals.

So as the anlysis of these figures availble, I can conclude that for most of the audiophile grade power conditioner manufacturer, the available specs are usless as they do not tell the whole story except for the Audioquest which tells specs only at Lab specs & not the real world scenarios.

Synergestic reseach is not publishing any spec at all even for their 28K unit which is criminal IMO. Considering the price of these units not disclosing the full specs can be considered very dubious. Whie Audioquest has discolsed their lab setting specs, they are sub-par and even $70 Schaffner filter has better noise reduction performance (which also specifies only lab condition vaues) which is the main function of all these units.

The only one to stand out of all these is EMI Filter by OnFilter, as they provide data for real world values instead of just Lab setting vaues & their performnce is very impressive indeed and that too at a lower price than all other audiophile counterparts.

Audio_phool

@tvad Thanks for the reply. Just curious how did you measure the EMI/RFI? It's supposed to across the range o frequency, so did you use any sophisticated tool to measure it?

Also it's quite interestig that you did not hear any difference in your system after using the Cleansweep filter. Idealy one would expect some difference when EMI/RFI is removed from the power, so did you search for any answer as to why there was no chnage inspite of the product being very effective at doing what it's supposed to do?

Audio_phool

@12many As per your experience I can only conclude that a well built/designed electronic component will take care of all EMI/RFI, which is the case for your 2 Ch system. Since AVR are ussualy built with less care as compared to electronics for 2 ch, you are able to hear the EMI from Washing machine. As far as the DC is concerned theoretically there would be zero EMI on DC, but in reality some till gets transffered even to DC, thats the reason why in AVR you are able to hear the washing machine as all those electronic components work on DC. So in short we might be overreacting to the need of a power conditioning from the point of it's impact on SQ.

@tvad I had a look at the meter you mentioned, looks like pretty basic meter with not sure how it's arriving at the values (it must be averaging, but not sure how), still it's a meaurement which is better than no measurement at all.

Audio_phool

@tvad though I have tech background, I don't want to purchase something for just couple of measurements, it will be waste money.

Looks like the trifield device is being used by many though I cannot exactly makeout how it's measuring and what to make out of it except some number increasing/decreasing

Audio_phool

@vonhelmholtz Going off grid is better option, but that doesn't not answer my original question about measurements of power conditioning  products from Synergistic research, Shunyata etc. which given their price point, should be available from manufacturer himself. I'm not denying the improvements that you have heard with Everest 8000, but I read their patent on Noise Isolation Chamber and found that they are just running the power cables trough tubes filled with silica beads and/or mixed with Rochelle salt. So I'm very sceptical about the actual effectiveness of this method unless hard facts in the form of measurements are provided by the manufacturer.

@vk_onfilter thank you for taking time to reply. I agree to you that ideally power should not have any impt on the SQ, but if one has dirty power and it gets cleaned up then one should be able to hear the impact of it.

Regarding your point of measurements using Amazon grade instrument, while it's better than nothing but it does not really help in assessing the real life effectiveness and especially frequency spectrum where it is making any impact. It's like being in the middle of ocean and moving, you know you are moving but whether you armving in the right direction or not you don't get to know. To be more specific a lot of commercial products which are cheaply built ignore one of the main affect area of of around 100Khz which is caused by SMPS in LED and others, but if you use cheap device you won't know if it's really acting there.

Regards,

Audio_fool

@vonhelmholtz Sure I will communicate directly with Richard Rodgers. Hopefully they will be ready to share actual performance data.

Regards,

Audio_phool

@vonhelmholtz I had written to Shunyata as per your suggestion asking them for the measurements & below is the response related to measurements.

"We've published our own measurements on our up-market Everest and Denali power distributors that show a -68dB down at 1mHz noise measurement, which is top in the field.

@tonywinga completely agree with you on the part that one cannot say what and howuch improvement one can hear from adding a power conditioner in your system as there are a lot of variables included. Since the only job of this piece is to decrease the EMI/RFI from the power line, it’s a completely objective parameter to measure and report which these audiophile companies are giving a complete miss, hence my original post.

Audio_phool

@tonywinga I don't understand whats in the performance data which needs to be kept secret even though the method of achieving the performance can be proprietary and hence method can be kept secret. In fact performance numbers are a thing to boast & if I was the mrketing head i will use them everywhere to market the product unless they are terrible & hence need to be kept secret.

Your example of Automotive industry exactly confirms the point which i said, except for the Audiophile industry, every other industry has standard norms and specs to be met, else the product is useless. In audio while sound is highly subjective and hence cannot be standardised the way it's done for other things, power conditioning or EMI reduction is something very well established & measurable thing, yet audiophile grade manufacturers of these products choose to ignore the specification and/or performance data.

@deep_333 I never said any of these products don't make the improvement/changes to the sound. My post was regarding lack of objective measurements/performance data for something which is completely objective. Will FDA accept a new drug if tomorrow the manufactrer will just say I saw improvement in a patient's condition?

Audio_phool

@deep_333 do youself a favor and get out of audio rabbit hole to see that even $10-$20 commodity grade EMI filters have the specs/data published. So if me insisting on specs/measurements is going to get you worked up so much; it's better for you to say goodbye. Else you have a job to keep these manufacturers alive in the audio industry, as they won't survive outside Audiophilia with this way.

Audio_phool

@vonhelmholtz I think you mis-read/interpreted my post. I was not highlighting the importance of noise reduction at 1Mhz, it was highlighted by Shunyata in response to my query about the performance data. They claimed that their Everest & Denali to have 68dB noise suppression at 1 MHz which is best in the field. But then I cited the example of $60 worth of filter from Schaffner to have Noise reduction of 70dB in common mode and 80dB in differential mode at 1MHz.
 

I am of the opinion that impact of power conditioning on SQ is dependent on various factors such as equipment, state of power, person's hearing etc. & hence can not be easily measured. But the performance of a power conditioner in terms of noise reduction is completely objective and measurable.

Audio_phool

@vk_onfilter I saw the productline of your company which looks impressive & you seem to serve diverse industries including chip manufacturing, R&D centers etc. and you have provided the performance chart for your products. Besides you seem to have more than 40 years of experience in the field of EMI/RFI reduction/compliance. Is application of EMI/RFI filtering to audio any special than other industries you serve which allows one to not to specify the performance data? Can such practice will be acceptable if the same product was to used in other industries than in Audio?

Audio_phool

@deep_333 Your example is a very poor one. Since you quoted that only one manufacturer existed, then obviously you had no other choice to find a workaround. So it doen’t apply to current situation as you have a neumerous manufacturers providing the product. Besides power for Audio isn’t anything really special either so don’t try to make it sound something very special. It’s attitude of audiophiles of accepting subjectivity in every thing under the sun has lead to manufacturers take advantage.

Besides even though I have technical lnowledge and come from research background I don’t think engineering degree is needed to understand the need of measurements for power conditioning products which cost and arm and leg. Just common sense is needed.

@tonywinga I doubt those certifications will cost so much that power conditioners costing tens of grands cannot cover it. Besides Im not going to get into cables, thats another debatable topic.

Audio_phool

@tonywinga I am in the market searching for a power conditioner. So having the specifications and performance data will help me compare the options I have and make an informed decision.

I agree that speaker manufacturers do mot provide the data of individual drivers or electronics manufacturers do not provide info on the noise reduction incorporated. But for speaker manufacturer providing the specification of the entire speaker is more important than the individual one, hence specification of sensitivity, impedance & (in many cases) frequency response & in case of the electronics, they do provide the specification pertaining to the function of their product, e.g. if it's a pre-amp then they provide the gain & S/N ratio, impedances etc. Noise reduction is part of design which will mean how careful designer is to eliminate noises. Since thats not the primary function of that electronic they can skip on specifying how much reduction is achived through designing.

But in case of power conditioner it's main function is to reduce the EMI/Noise & manufacturers are omitting on specifying how well it's doing the job which it is supposed to do. Now imagine if Power amp, pre-amp or even DACs manufacturers stopped publishing all the specs? Isn't that problematic?

@vk_onfilter Thank you very much for the detailed reply. I appreciate your view on accepting both objectivity and subjectivity whereever applicable.
 

@deep_333 do read the response of vk_onfilter & let that sink in.

Audio_phool

@tonywinga thanks for pointing it out. I wonder why they kept it in user manual where no prospective buyer is likely to look into. Though these are not exactly what I am looking for but better than not having anything.

Audio_phool

@tonywinga Thank you for pointing out the user manual part. Now I have created a table of values for EMI/RFI Noise reduction based on available/published spec. Took me some time to gather all info. But I think its a worthwhile exercise.

For any Power conditioner/Filter, it’s primary function is to reduce EMI/RFI noise on the mains line. Hence it’s objective performance is of high importance here. Now the performance of this noise filtering is evaluated based on the following parameters.

1. Noise reductionvalue:- The EMI Reduction value is expressed in the units of dB. Higher the value, better is the attenuation performance. Sometimes it’s also expressed as -ve dB value in that case lower the number better is the attenuation performance.
2. Frequency Range :- The performance of filter is not linear or constant over frequency range hence usually the graph of attenuation is plotted for range of frequency (Just like frequency response of speakers). For normal house hold scenario where noise is generated because of SMPS in LEDs, TV, fridges, washing machines etc, it’s frequency range usually lies around 100-150 KHz hence performance of any filter in this frequency range is crucial.

3. Mode :- EMI/RFI noise attenuation is measured in two modes Differntial Mode (DM) which is measured between live (hot) and neutral (cold) line (differential currents flow in opposite directions through the source and return path) and Common Mode (CM) which is about noise that flows in the same direction in a pair of lines (common mode currents flow in the same direction through the source and return path, completing the circuit through the ground path). Typically DM noise reduction values will be higher than CM mode values at a given frequency value & at the same load value. In both cases having higher values is desirable.
4. Load Values :- Typical Lab setting measurements are done with 50 ohms load and 50 ohms output impedance of power supply. These values often time look good (Schaffner publishes these lab values). But real world load and powerline impedances are anything but 50 ohms. Hence the realworld scenario would look like 0.1/100 where 0.1 ohm is the output impedance of powerline and 100 ohm is the load value or vice a versa 100/0.1. Schaffner removed the realworld performance data from their data sheets because it’s performance was worse in the area where it mattered the most viz. in 100Khz region.

Hence from above four points one can see what all needs to be looked at when looking for noise attenuation performance of any filter. So if any manufacturer specifies just a random number like PS audio for example, it doesn’t make any sense from the actual performance standpoint. Instead start asking for the hard facts based on these thingsfor the amount of money that we pay for these products.

@kennyc Yeah, now that you have pointed out, I can see that I had already answerd my own question. The table above puts hard facts around it.

Audio_phool

@cleeds not everyone has the option/luxury of trying all at home. So listening is not always the viable option. Why you want to defend these manufacturers for not providing specs is beyond me. Besides if you don't find anything wrong with zero specs for a power conditioner costing $28K then may God help you.

@vk_onfilter thank you for providing the real information and not something which these audiophile companies keep on blabbering.

Regards,

Audio_phool

@cleeds  you don't get home audition from dealers all over the world. So that option is out of the question. So is the option of return from online dealers.

My system which retails north of USD 30K, I have bought it blind without any audition. So when you don't have option to try before  , you purchase blindly.

Lastly something like power conditioner whose performance cometely objective, you are fine to buy it without seeing any specs or being fine with lack of specs (even if it costs 28K) is funny in the first place. Will you do the same thing with sports car even if they didn't mention a single spec about engine, performance etc.?

Audio_phool

@tvad I live in India. @cleeds From your comments I can completely understand that you have no idea whatso ever about Indian HiFi scenario. And since you have no clue about the scene hence your ignorant remarks.

My system is rocking and I don't even feel for a second thst there is any component that I don't like in my chain or I should have tried to listen to some component before buying.

Besides coming to the original point, for power conditioner there is no part of it's performance which is subjective. Every aspect of power conditner objective and it can be measured. Hence allowing audiophile power conditioner manufacturer not to publish complete specs when they cost so much is completely absurd & there is no room to say you can decide the performance by audtioning it at home. Besides I have shown in the table how murky this audiophile power conditioner business is. If you still want to support this practice, then may god save you.

Audio_phool

@tvad I don't post there, neither I take Aamir's reviews very seriously as I don't find much value in his methodology. It's a bit like gun in the hand of a monkey (take this as an idiom and not the literal comparison) & now he has a following. I am very much aware of subjectivity in this hobby but at the same time I very well know where I can be objective.

Audio_phool

@tvad You have made a very good and important point that you could not discern any audible effect between several regarded power conditioners. This is in turn related to correlation between EM reduction and sound improvements.

@tonywinga I forgot to look up Furman. anyway I have looked up it's specs and they are as below.

Prestige Series P-2400 AR Power Conditioner : Filteration performance
10 10dB @ 10KHz, 40dB @ 100KHz, 50dB @ 500KHz. No mention of mode or load.

Prestige Series P-2400 IT Power Conditioner : Filteration performance
For Differential mode 10 10dB @ 10KHz, 40dB @ 100KHz, 50dB @ 500KHz

For Common mode 80dB @ 20KHz, 40dB @ 20KHz to 1 MHz No mention of load for both modes.
 

These specs are in line with other Audiophile grade power conditioners, nothing very different.
The reason why I don't really want to correlate SQ with EMI reduction is because of multiple factors which are as below.
1. EMI/Filteration Performance :- This is obvious factor which doesn't need any explanation.

2. EMI/RFI on power line :- Now we don't really measure how much polluted our li nes are before we even use an power conditioning. So if a line is very clean then  even if best power conditioner is used it will not really have any impact on SQ.

3. Power Design of the component :- Some companies recommend plugging directly into the wall outlet. In those case & other cases here power stage is very well designed and takes care of dirty power is naturally going to sound same as with any power conditioner.

4. Personal bias and hearing ability :- Everyone has differnt hearing ability and not everyone can distinguish the changes which are subtle. Besides bias is very true and it can change one's perception to a large amount the way he percieves changes in SQ.

So if you consider all this you will understand why it's not a great idea to find correlation between SQ and EMI reduction.
While all said, I am not going to challange your experience as that what you have heard/experienced.
I think vk_onfilter has also described the impact of EMI filtering in line with my view in one of his earlier post

Audio_phool