Any Herron VTPH-2 Phono Stage Owners out there?


Has anyone recently purchased a VTPH-2? Any thoughts compared to other phono stages costing around the same price of $3,600? That still is a lot of money and a lot of good competition out there. I was also looking at a couple of the Sutherland units (the DUO and the 20/20).

Another concern is that I have a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated Amp and was wondering how another tube phono stage would sound with the tube phono stage? Is it better to Mix solid state phono stage with a Tube Amp or keep it all the same (all tubes or all solid state?). My turntable is a VPI Prime with Ortofon Quintet black cartridge. Thanks!
djfst

Showing 8 responses by bdp24

Well, here's your chance. There is a VTPH-2 just listed on AudiogoN tonight (Sunday, 6-7) for $2500.
I didn't want to have to pay for the MC section of a VTPH-2 (I'm a "committed" Decca/London user; some people think "we" should be committed!), so I contacted Keith. He told me he had a PH-1mc trade-in that he could convert into a custom PH-1mm, and I took him up on his offer. He went way beyond what could be expected of him, lowering the gain a couple dB (which simultaneously increases the amp's headroom, a good thing with a 5mV output cartridge like the Decca) by using 12AT7's in place of two of the 12AX7's, putting in the 15k resistance and 220pF capacitance the London Reference calls for (although Harvey Rosenburg suggested years ago that I start with 1000pF!), and some updates to the original PH-1 circuit. Keith was at last weekends T.H.E. Show in Irvine, and his system (with Audio Physic speakers) sounded great!
Most of the difference between the VTPH-1 and VTPH-2 is in the mc section, which was one reason I didn't want to spend so much more for the 2. I have no doubt the 2 is worth the extra $ for mc use, but I don't need the extra gain of the 2---in fact, quite the opposite. Decca/Londons put out 5mV at 1000Hz! ALL phono amps sacrifice their overhead characteristics to get the higher gain needed by low-output mc cartridges. The Decca/London is not for everyone, any more than electrostatic loudspeakers are. But they have a characteristic NO other cartridge has, no matter the cost; the immediacy and dynamics of a Decca/London cartridge are unmatched by any other. A D/L cartridge compared to any other is just like the difference between a direct-to-disc LP and any LP made from a tape recording---the difference is that dramatic. A lot of people had a Decca in the 60's and early 70's, but many eventually tired of it's shortcomings, and with the improvements in moving coil designs and head amps in the mid-70's, gladly gave up the immediacy to get better tracking, less microphonics, etc. But John Wright at Decca didn't stop working on it's design either, and with the Super Gold remedied many of the older Decca's failings. Then the Deccapod cured the weak mounting system, as did the Jubilee model. Now the Reference brings the D/L into the 21st Century, and solves all of it's problems. But they're still not for everyone! I got a call from Harvey Rosenburg in the mid-80's, and he passed on to me a small amount of his vast Decca knowledge and wisdom. The resistance and capacitance loading of the Decca provides electrical damping to the cartridge (Harvey recommended starting with 1000pF of capacitance!), and mechanical damping does the rest. A Decca was used in the development of the Cransfield turntable, manufactured by Max Townshend as the "Rock". I can't imagine having a D/L and not a Townshend Rock TT, but people do. Yeah, it's a little more work to play an LP on a Rock than a normal table, but to me it's worth it!
Lew, Harvey recommended 10k to 15k resistance, and 1000pF to 1mF (!) capacitance, using .33mF himself. But every Decca was different. There was a device named the "Decade Capacitance Box" that would allow capacitance to be adjusted; with it you found the sound you wanted, and you would then install capacitors in your pre-amp of the value you decided upon.

A Decca/London is never going to be as refined or delicate as some, but, just like everything else in Hi-Fi, each listener has to determine what aspects of reproduced sound are most responsible for a satisfying musical experience. To me, there is the Decca, and then there is everything else. My friend Brooks Berdan would just shake his head and smile when the subject came up! They can sound rather brash, but part of that is because they put so much mechanical energy back into the arm, they reveal any weakness in an arm's bearings or the arm tubes stiffness and resonance. That's true of all low-compliance cartridges, though. The change to a line-contact stylus profile starting with the Super Gold helped with tracking, but that is still a concern. I completely understand a person's misgivings and apprehensions about Decca/Londons, and they really aren't for everyone. But they make music sound so much more like live music (which IS brash!) than anything else, I just can't quit her!
Think about what Keith Herron did in my case: He took a used pre-amp that was discontinued ten years ago and reengineered it to meet my specific and unusual needs. Knowing I would want as much headroom as his design was capable of, and that I would forfeit some un-needed gain to get it, he replaced two of the stock phono amp's 12AX7 tubes with 12AT7's, listened to the amp, substituted some parts to maximize it's sound quality, burned in the amp, and sent along the unused 12AX7's incase I wanted to try the amp with them installed. All for $1225 shipped! He then emailed to verify that the PH-1mm had arrived safely!! I can't imagine anyone else going to all that trouble for what is chump change---his time is surely worth far more than the hours he put into my amp. I made sure to go to his room at last weekends T.H.E. Show in Irvine (wherein he was getting great sound, one of the couple of best systems I heard all weekend), and he couldn't have been nicer. He talked about tube swapping, the sound of passive parts, etc., and I'm telling you he is a happy, non-egocentric, down-to-earth guy. Maybe it's being from and in the Midwest, 'cause another guy I spent some time talking with was a very similar kinda guy---Bill Johnson.
Keith Herron's championing of infinite loading is just one example of his creative mind, free of doctrine and dogma, but informed by knowledge and experience. Plus he's a musician!
Shows what I know! It's the first I heard of it, but I don't follow developments in the world of MC's. ALL those guys named are brilliant, glad every one of them is working in the field of our passion. Music in our homes at our whim---how fortunate are we to live in such times! When I listen to Bach and the others whose manuscripts have survived through the centuries, I always marvel at the fact that only the privileged wealthy heard their music when it was new, and often only once. We peasants (speaking for myself ;-) can hear their masterpieces any time we want, in our own homes. Not even a King could do that!
Speaking of the Zesto phono stage (and the Decca cartridge as I did above), at the last Irvine T.H.E. Show I asked George about the 47K/15K resistance switch incorporated in the amp, thinking the choice of 15K could be for only one reason---the Decca/London cartridges (some models specify 22K, the Reference 15K). George confirmed my suspicion, saying he had friends whose favorite cartridge is the Decca/London (as is mine, two of them). In his column in the new Stereophile (December), Art Dudley discovers (about time!) why we Decca lovers prefer it to all others.