Gmorris,please don't get me wrong.I know nothing more about the Phantom than you or anyone else.I, personally,don't like the loss of damping capability on the newer arm.I know it still has the fluid,but as I understand it,the 2.2 damping is more critical.A disadvantage?Possibly,yet after all I have learned about the tuneability of the 2.2,I don't want to give that up.
Also,if you look at many of the popular cartridges reviewed,and favored,in the mainstream mags(dreck as they are,the mags,not the cartridges)you have a shift towards higher mass designs.EX:Myabi-appx.13 gms/Dynavector XV-1s-14 gms.Koetsus 12 gms./Titan 12 gms.Graham's own cartridge 14.5 gms.NOW I most likely am wrong here,and admit to it,however,in looking at a Capitolistic market, Graham stands to sell a hell of alot more arms by being more universally acceptable,hence a much more massive design,like the Phantom.
I have mentioned in the past that van den Hul feels a much lower mass over the record groove yields better results.So does the Air Tangent people.Who ever said that the 2.2 is overtly resonant in design,once you know how to tune into the fluid's signature traits?Who wants a Graham/Sme-5 hybrid,which is what the Phantom seems to be,to me.Does adding the cute "magna-glide" lock-in capability really afford one the "UNIQUE" sound of a true uni-pivot?A true uni-pivot should NOT be restricted in movement,IMO!There is a real advantage to that "SOUND".I could see where one would NOT want the sideways(not the movie,which was great BTW)flexure,if you had a fairly heavy cartridge,but my cart. is only 7 gms.Anyway,the 2.2, in structural rigidity, is Extremely Rigid,on it's own.The way my mindset works(not very well,actually,if I have to go on, like this),I would have "LOVED" and had "HOPED" the Phantom was going to be much more like the UNIQUE,but RARER than a rare orchid species,Shroder Reference.NO BEARING FRICTION AT ALL.NO DAMPING FLUID TO FOTZ AROUND WITH!That is what I had hoped for,with all the delays and all.Instead what I see is a 2.2 on STEROIDS.I got rid of my SME-5 some years back.I'll bet the difference between those two arms is not that great!!Before I offend anyone,let me admit that I'm sure some of my comments are just rationalization,though I do feel this way.It's just that I'd really hoped for Graham to REALLY do something GREAT after all the hoopla,regarding his BRILLIANT marketing of the PHANTOM.I expected,and would have gotten in line,to see an arm that ELIMINATED ANY FLUID,through the use of what a TRUE magnaglide design(vertically and horizontally)would have aforded us!
To really let myself off the hook(so I don't feel guilt when I get WACKED,by responses),if I had a significantly heavier cart. I'd probably consider a Phantom,if I did not LOVE Air Bearings so much.Any more money spent by me,on arms, would take me there!! |
If I were to run a cartridge this heavy,I would not use the 2.2.You would most likely get excellent results with the new(more massive) PHANTOM.There are many relatively heavy cartridges now in favor,in this hobby,which IMO only,seems to have partially influenced the arrival of the "SUPERB"(happy guys?)and heavier PHANTOM! |
Steve,I have NO DOUBT that the arm IS great.I did not realize you owned one.If I were running a heavier cart. than what I have now,or, if I ever upgrade to a higher mass one,there is no question I would seriously consider a Phantom.So long as I didn't go for an air bearing design,which I love,but,they are a pain to run(tubing,pumps etc.).And, it is here,in this thread, that I'm not kibbitzing you!!However,think how great it would be if the magnets were both vertically and horizontally applied.Well,I can always dream!!Good luck,and I hope you get real pleasure from your records. |
Splaskin,glad that we are keeping this a nice and polite debate,or I would not comment any further.I really never should have made ANY comments regarding the newer arm,since any of my thoughts are STRICTLY an uneducated opinion on a product I have never even seen.Who am I anyway?Just a hobbyist like anyone else reading this thread,but critical analysis can be fun.What the heck is Neutral Balance,other than marketing speak?Do you imply the 2.2 or other top arms,like the Triplaner are NOT neutral in balance?Also,I don't see why the new BIGGY arm is more "MEANINGFULLY" lower in resonance than the low resonance of the 2.2 tube(ever check how non resonant ceramic is?)I mean if you want to be rediculously picky,I guess you could say that the 2.2 tube is LESS resonant than the Phantom,since there is another JOINT in the new tube!I have never measured,nor do I care to,and I assume you are merely mouthing what you have read,so,we'll call this one a draw.As for the locking collar,who cares.The collar on the 2.2 is military spec!Even if the Phantom is more structurally rigid here,the problem of resonance STILL rests squarely with the bearing/damping.That my friend has NOT really been addressed,unless you want to recite some more of the web-site.
That being said,I NEVER implied,anywhere,that I'd hoped for a low mass design from Graham.He has a great track record,that I obviously like,or I would not own his products(which I do),or recommend them,which I do as well.All I'm expressing is my own opinion of what I'd have liked to see the Phantom as being,rather than what it actually is(on paper,since I have not seen it).My opinion is not empty,though,since I feel I know what the weaknesses of the 2.2 are.To me,and this is my real dissapointment(though,as I've said,it means nada)is that he did not eliminate "BEARING CONTACT/metal interface" that needs damping fluid to control it(resonance).Hey,this is my own hang up.It's just that The "Magnaglide" feature,to me,is a halfway measure.TO ME,once again.I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.Just having some spirited fun,around a topic that I know a "little" about,through 4 years with the 2.2,and about30 yrs with other arms.This still only makes me a hobbyist with some experience,NOT an expert,so don't get too overloaded by my comments.You can always get even in your next post.
What I did state I was dissapointed about,was the fact that this Phantom could have been/would have been FRIGGIN GREAT if he had gone all the way with the magnets,and somehow totally eliminated the BEARING contact point alltogether.Maybe Shroder has a patent on this,but that would have eliminated any metal to metal contact,that needs resonance control,ie. damping.Get it?If you have experience in this hobby,and I'm sure you do,as you seem sincerely intelligent in your responses,then you must know the advantage of products like air bearing arms/platter bearings/suspensions.Why should I get excited about the Phantom,massive/chubby or whatever, when I STILL have to FOTZ around with that damn fluid to damp the bearing resonance.The Platine table from France uses magnets to keep the platter from making contact with the bearing.CUTE and EFFECTIVE!
So I feel, that my hope, that Bob Graham would have gone to this extent,to me alone,is not such a dumb argument,even if I'm dumb to even be wasting time here instead of listening to my music.The magna-glide is cute.To have taken it all the way(no metal contact needing fluid damping)would have been the ULTIMATE,and was what I was hoping for.Big deal,it's just a hobby.
As for this more massive means less resonance bit,that's being marketed,I just don't buy into the fact that suddenly the 2.2 has resonances that are addressed in the Phantom.The damn thing STILL needs DAMPING OF THE BEARING.Anyone owning a Graham knows that this is a pain in the ass.Where is the big Progressive step forward.Bigger,wider,more massive,china finish?It's all in the damping,which is still a BIG issue!!It should have been eliminated,like ME,from this thread!
Please take some of this with a little "tongue in cheek",I don't think I can handle to many "let's get sirspeedy" responses. |
Recommended,and preferred are TWO different varients.I'm sure my 2.2 would work with a Koetsu "ONIX"(as in stone)body design.Never in my wildest dreams would I be tempted to put that match together!
Gmorris,it is perfectly "Legal" for you to rationalize your decisions,any way you care to.Please don't try to "Bait me" though.I've been at this hobby too long. |
Bigdog,unfortunately the wine is probably not really all that good,knowing my friend.However there will be alot of it.Good for me.Bad for tweaking.
As for the cable issue.One friend I am going over to,tomorrow,has a fantastic set-up.Truly world class sound,regardless of price.His system has been developed through years of careful attention to detail.He is a HUGE record collector,and could probably buy an Island in the Bahamas if he ever sold his stuff.Literally "Everything" of note ever discussed in any of the Mags.He actually wrote the Mercury column for TAS.So,he knows his shit.My point being,he has absolutely "CHEAP" crapola(actually,only in price,not performance)cables.I'm talking 10 bucks per eight ft. run.No longer manufactured.The sound in his rig is "INCREDIBLE",and on 22year old speakers(Heavily modded).
I have heard these cables elsewhere and they stunk.Obviously,all systems are cable dependant.All components interact differently.I feel that the "laws of the universe" don't apply to his room.The sound is that good.Probably has something to do with "String Theory",and "Worm Holes".Who knows?Everyone who has gone over to him,manufacturers as well,are bowled over by his sound.Including me.Oh yeah,I hate him too!
However,one can learn alot about their own set-up,by listening,with an open mind,to systems like this one!!We all,too often rationalize the money we just spent on our own stuff,and don't really like to admit something is really better.A defense mechanism,probably.
Friend #2 will be auditioned later in the eve.He has MEGABUCK cables.MEGABUCK power cords(actually he's obsessed with PC's).Newer stuff(Kharma based equip.- good stuff).This set-up,although really good,is just not in the same league as the older set-up,with the cheapo cables.This is universally felt by our audio group.Nothing wrong with the equip,just that the synergy isn't as good.My system falls into this latter category as well.
Moral:We NEVER know how something will sound unless it is auditioned.Forget reviewers.They are just HOBBYISTS,like us.We have to do the legwork for ourselves.Personally,I'm getting tired of this tweaking cycle,but my system has improved in leaps and bounds.I try to have an open mind,and like to think things through.
I have read that Purist Audio offers loaner cables as a test of effectiveness,for some customers.NOW THAT is how one can have the questions of comparisons answered!! |
Steve,if you fail to post these results I WILL come looking for you!! |
I can't argue AT ALL with your rather well thought out points Thomasheisig. |
Dear Frank,please don't get so touchy regarding any of my posts.As you know I respect you,and your seemingly fine arms.I was the one to start a post asking about your arm,some time ago.I admit to being on a fence regarding my 2 choices.Yours and the Phantom.However I'm just one yutz,who happens to LOVE analog,owning thousands of fine LP's.I'm ONLY frustrated over the fact that so many products that interest me are SO difficult to audition.I'm not about to get on a plane to see and hear one.I come from a time when almost everything was an hour ride away,at most.The problem is MINE,not yours.
PS In the future I will keep my BIG MOUTH closed as regarding any product that could affect potential sales,which are SO deserved by all of YOU fine designers!!I mean it!! |
Splaskin,read my comments more carefully!I never said I thought the Phantom could not handle my cartridge!!I said I felt(and it was only my opinion)the 2.2 was a better match for a low mass cart. like mine.Read van den Hul's comments,on mass over the record groove,before you start to interpret my thoughts to suit you!!
By the way,I am SURE the Phantom will prove to be a great arm. |
I'm not doubting the superb performance afforded by the move to a Phantom.However ,I'd like to see some comments from those that have moved from the 2.2 to a Phantom,running a cartridge that is lighter in weight than those already mentioned.The Phantom,apparently has a much higher mass arm-tube,and would,obviously work better with the higher mass cartridges(compared to a 2.2).So,let's not be so quick to bury the 2.2!So far the Koetsu's mentioned are MUCH higher in weight than my 7 gm Transfiguration,and I'm just still a little suspicious of the sudden additional mass of that armtube,in light of the fact that Graham's own Nightingale is 14.5gms!So,the jury is out on how much more performance can be obtained,over the 2.2,until enough feedback with lower mass cartridges is funneled through this forum.BELIEVE ME,I hope my suspicion, that the Phantom is actually only better with heavier cartridges,is proven wrong!!If the envelope is to be pushed,let Graham give it a "GOOD SCHTUUP"!! |
Splaskin,took a look at your system on Audio Asylum."I Hate You Too"!!
Just kidding.Great stuff!!
Actually there are some "Concept" similarities between yours,and mine.I'll save that for another time.Good luck.
Tomorrow I take the day off,WHEW,to go over to 2 friend's homes.Both audio/fanatics.Doing some arm tweaking/tube rolling etc.Oh yeah,forgot to mention some serious MERLOT will be on hand.I'll probably be too blitzed to apply correct fluid damping!!This is our little secret Splaskin.My friend won't know.I'm his set-up man.HEH,HEH,HEH!! |
Gmorris,please report back when you actually "DO" the listening,to determine what compatibility issues are brought out by varied weights in cartridge design.Your 30 years in the hobby should weigh heavily in knowing this,already!BTW,please take any jabs,from me,as just typical debate,as though we were having a GOOD TUSSLE at a commonly shared listening session.I just had one this past weekend,and am still leaving my "Curad's" in place for a few more days.Seems some of my best audio-pals "LOVE" to give the criticism,BUT GOOD,but don't like to receive it.
Recent cause of latest club debate==="The ground loop hum you are hearing is having no impact on the music perceived".==followed by fisticuffs.OUCH!! |
Bob,thanks for your post.Actually my typing is REALLY SLOW.However I will run REALLY FAST to HE 2005 in hopes that you have a PHANTOM on display,in a working set-up.
Please,please consider this.Too many designers are missing potential customers,when relying on dealers who either don't care to assist in "proper" analog systems,in favor of digital(easy)sales.The alternative is that there are almost NO dealers who can,or want to "Accurately" set up a table/arm/cartridge anymore.You must know this.As you probably know,it took me forever to learn proper damping techniques.A good "OLDEN DAY" dealer could have shortened this path.I don't claim to be anything other than a hobbyist, with some of my own opinions.I guess a good support network,as in some years back,would quell any concerns I may,and still do,have.You must understand that this stuff is getting expensive,and with a college tuition,as well as a medical student to support,I reserve the right to "Rationalize" a bit, it's human!
Please,in the case of HE 2005,don't be like some other designers who,though understandably limited in time, expect potential sales to occur by word of mouth as opposed to "in the flesh" exposure.Sorry for the excessive verbage.Can't help myself.Sort of like my unchecked upgrade "BUG"!! |
Frank,you forgot to take ROUND TRIP into consideration.Let alone the cost to me,or anyone else taking time off.In my case,from my business.Take that all into account and you'd be giving your arm away if you were so nice as to discount expenses.The offer,I'm sure, was meant in a good spirit,and appreciated,but the "little woman" at home would make me pay DEARLY.I guess I'll have to live with what I currently own,for a while longer.
Anyway,as you pointed out,and what any well heeled audiobuff already knows,something like a tonearm "SHOULD" be judged in one's own set-up,unless you are intimately familiar with the NEW system at hand.My complaint about the loss of good dealers,revisited.
I do want to thank you and Bob Graham for your fascinating(to me)responses.I'm impressed,and kind of surprised that in a HOBBY-RELATED site,the dialog could be such that they could garnish responses from proven designers like you two.Sort of humbles me,a bit,about keeping my mouth shut(although I have been at this 37 yrs)and am still free to express opinions "Learned" from owning said products.
At the very least,I'm really getting paranoid about my propensity for excessive word count!!Anyway,it is now SPRINGTIME here in New Jersey,and I'll be out practicing my first love,TENNIS,so I doubt if I'll be boring anyone in the near future,unless I decide to analyse new tennis racket technology should my backhand go astray!!Anyone know of any good tennis websites?Good luck to all!! |
Bob,in lieu of the fact that I have a Vacuum table,would the magna-glide feature help me that much.I have a 7.5 gm Transfiguration Temper-v coupled to a 2.2.
I was not going to post anymore,as you stated you didn't have time to respond seperately,but you broke your rule(ha,ha)with your last thread.Anyway,if you chose not to respond,I'll see either you or a rep,from Musical Surroundings,at HE-2005.Either way is fine with me.Thanks. |
Gmorris,Wow,you have a really great memory.I'm happy for you,in that you love the Phantom(actually,what's not to love?).I saw it at HE-2005,and it seems to be a fine product.Good luck!!Actually,my latest little project is tube rolling my phono section.With the price of some NOS tubes,you can almost buy a new Phantom.How sad is that??? |
Bigdog,I think you should change your name to "LUCKYDOG".
PS--I HATE YOU!!
PPS--Splaskin,you bring up a VERY important question, regarding the asking around about phono cables.I and my friend have the IC-70.Wonderful performers,but I have heard that the Purist Audio Venustas is superior.The arm to phono stage connection is probably the most important cable in a set-up(I read this on many occassions,not my words here,so I don't mean to be confrontational).I have put out threads asking about "REALLY PRIMO",as in costly,cables,in comparison to the IC-70 and never got a response.Probably 'cause I'm so obnoxious.Maybe a response can come from this thread.I'm open to any feedback,as I have A/B'd the IC-70 with the 30 and heard a huge diff.So,to me,this can be a very sensitive area in phono reproduction!Also,I see you own my favorite table.Basis Vac/Debut.That is one product I lust for.I know other tables are regarded more highly,but,that's the one I want.Some day.After all college and medical school tuitions are paid for!!The sacrifices we make,at the expense of our hobby!!! |
Regardless of any doubts that I may have regarding the Phantom(and let's face it,I don't delude myself into thinking I'm anymore than "just an audio geek",my daughter's description,not mine,though true),Bob Graham,STILL has a KILLER(as in great)reputation of introducing fabulous products.He,also,has a real knack for tweaking the hell out of them in reasonably priced updates.That is one reason why I "Love" the superb and proven 2.2.
In all honesty,and realizing that my fascination(fantasy)about owning a linear tracker will never happen,due to the "PAIN IN THE ASS" factor of set up, and maintaining the BEAST,I would say that the PHANTOM and SHRODER REFERENCE,with an outside shot of the new 12.6 inch VPI(no damping fluid in this design)look,to me only,to be the REAL DEAL for any potential contenders to either championship belts.I haven't heard a big deal made over the Basis design,and don't know if IMMEDIA is in the game anymore!Oh,yeah!There is always the SME stuff.Been around forever.Hard to kill.
What ever happened to that fascinating DYNAVECTOR arm of years ago.I had a friend who had one running,with a custom Japanes table,on Beveridge Speakers.KOetsu Onyx Platinum Cart.What a COOL set-up he had,and what a nice guy.We'd stay at his penthouse pad,audioing out until 3 or 4 am.Those were the days.He was a retired antique dealer,and while we listened to his rig he would dimly light up his original(real) tiger rug,with full size head intact!.Scared the crap out of us, if too imbibed.No non-stop criticism,of differing audio philosophies.No criticising other people's equipment choices.Just great fun,and sound!!
Is it too late for me to add a new "NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION? |
Dr.Steve,please give it plenty of break in time.Also,you're a "Mensch"!! |
