Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8...OMG!!

@b_limo Thanks for keeping us posted on your experience with them! I’ve been following the thread and its awesome to see you guys having the same results as me. I absolutely love these cables..

@b_limo
On demo, I intermixed some other brand TOTL interconnects with AP Crystal Solos last month with moderate success. Won’t mention the brand, but highly respected but 2-3x the price of the APs, and a totally different design. Returned them. It kinda helped me to see staying with similar designs may be recommended.

I then decided to intermix same-brand AP Crystal Solo interconnects with the two models below the Crystal Solos (first the AP purple Oval One and then the black/yellow Copper Oval-In Micro) interconnects with some interesting and telling results.

I found if you place the Crystal Solo (OCC) interconnects upstream at your source (CD, DAC/Streamer or high end Tuner [FIRST in line]; you still retain a nice clear sound and larger and more open soundstage is mostly retained when you place the next downstream set (AP Oval One or AP Oval-In Copper Micros) between the preamplifier and amplifier(s), it essentially adds their signature about 50% into the results. The "blend" makes for another option and it does change the sound.

I have confirmed using the Crystal Solos (OCC copper Oval-in Micro, oval design) throughout the system end-to-end are by far the most pure, clear, covering the top end and bottom end frequencies with no rounding of the signal. When you intermix the AP Oval-In Copper Micro, it retains clarity with a bit more mid-bass and a slight rounding of the high-frequency (OFC copper, same oval design), slightly more grainy sounding but also sounds a bit fuller too, maybe a slight bass hump in the midrange, not bad - just different. Intermixing the lower version Oval One is a waste. Too grainy, downgrades the end result, not worth it to pair up with the higher cost OCC  Crystal Solos. The Copper Oval-In Micros is a decent end-to-end cable to use for the $, yet it’s definitely not as clear and smooth with "no grain" like the Solo Crystals are. An interesting test.

Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8...OMG!!

I seriously can’t believe what these cables are doing to the sound in my rig. I had them awhile ago and couldn’t justify the price (used) so I pulled back and returned them...

Yes. SAME HERE, exactly. Funny. I came full circle too, long reply if interested. Took a while to find an approach. :)

All system dependent of course but there is a DIFFERENT SOUND to the AP cables too up and down the lower line too.

I tried the AP Crystal Solos a while back, thought "too much $" for Solos, and returned them - just like you. Four months later sold some unused gear, tried various combos of my Cardas Parsec (nice, copper), in combination with my Apature JJ (silver-over-copper) interconnects. Had many pairs of Cardas too over the years (MicroTwin, Hexlink, Golden Cross, Belden 8402, AQ), now own Parsec, tried Clear Cygnus recently), li synergy with current system when streaming with ladder DAC in lossless. Just could not get it right when doubling up on the two pairs of Parsec (DAC-to-Pre) and (Pre-to-Mono-Amps) was too much of a good thing, too rolled off, loss of sound stage and depth. I kept going back and pulling one pair of Parsec (nice for $) and re-inserting my Apature JJ with silver-over-copper between pre-to-amp (tad too much detail or glare, more forward) and loss of sound stage I suspected. I run tube amps and so with lots of NOS front-end tubes could not regain the depth of stage I was use to over decade. "Had to be my cables", and sure enough. Spoke to Tech Rob at AP. He explained more about he Crystal Solo, yes they are copper "different extrusion process".

GO BACK and TRY IT AGAIN!, dealer demo:

1) AP Copper Oval-In MiCRO interconnects (1M) inserted (test #1)

• Liquid smooth, musical, a tad rolled off but nice, great for $. A peak in midrange and bass with highs rolled of a tad more. Could be nice for a brighter solid state amp like i used Cardas Golden line for a few decades. Not as revealing and less synergy top to bottom for my full tube amp system with tube DAC. Yes, ton’s of NOS tube rolling, it’s a cable issue for sure. Gap: still missing some stage depth and detail and resolution, but nice. Memorable. More of a wall of sound across speakers side to side. Have a slight veil over the top-end, which produces a more full bloom sound. Neat at first, something missing with detail. AND, I could not forget about former "Crystal Solo" that I did not give enough time to on my prior test four months ago. Break-in, really? Never let them rest last time, hmm. Back to dealer to grab the Solos again...
  

2) AP Solo Crystal Oval interconnects (1M) inserted (test #2)

• Instant detail, cleaner, and improved resolution, larger and deeper sound stage - immediately. Not as musical or milky smooth as the Copper Oval (at first). However the Solo has more twinkle coming through with detail, now in the opposite direction wondering IF they will smooth out, same as my first demo and return. Ah, dealer says "give them some time". Believer? Ah, we’ll see. Then I start reading people claiming "to give Solo Crystal first 20-100 hours of resting, settling in, cable tension relaxing" after being coiled up in a box. Decided to give them a lot more time, a week or more... we’ll see...
  
• After 20-hours I am starting to notice a slight more musicality coming through now and it’s NOT just me getting use to it. I appreciate the larger and deeper sound stage of the Crystal Solos too. At 20 hours my speakers have petty much disappeared now. Now running Cardas Parsec at sources/DAC and Solo Crystal between Preamp and Amps. Can flip-flop them for evermore clarity if needed. Subtle details way out there coming through now that I could not hear with Cardas Parsec, or AP Copper oval, or from my other Apature silver-over-copper ICs.  Nice, gonna keep the Solos for sure.

Decision:
Returned AP Copper Ovals (nice, musical, smooth, more veiled over), and bought the Crystal Solos (more open, bigger sound stage, more resolving) and giving them more time to settle in.

Other Info:
These AP cables provide a different tone and approach than any of my former Cardas. And, mixing is an option, so i am. Works well. Some say stay with like cables, I don't believe that any more. Each component has it's own internal wiring, and so I've learned to just try different ICs to figure out does/not work well. 

Final Solution:
Hybrid, mixed my Cardas on the front-end with AP on back-end between amp to preamp and now I’m getting a unique sound, Nice, not too detailed and not too milky smooth. Just about right for my system, amps, speakers, fine tune achieved. No more tube rolling! Done :)

stringreen5,363 posts
08-31-2019 11:59am
All cables sound different in different systems....I too found Cardas pretty bad in my system...but they might be wonderful in yours.

For sure, and all Cardas sound different too.  I've actually demo'd and owned a lot more Cardas than listed. Older series, Golden and Clear are very different lines. Some amazing cables with the right system (solid state or tube). Like you said, all "system dependent".

What electronics are you running and what Cardas did you own/try?

rodman
08-31-2019 3:29pm
Don’t know where the Big Silver Ovals fit, in the current AP food chain, but- mine aren’t going anywhere(unless I win the Lotto). I like them too much.

Rob at AP described the Big Silver as being a unique cable. Also noted it received Absolute Sound's 2018 Editors Choice award, fwiw. Noted as "not having harshness sometimes found in silver cables". The last (other brand) silver-over-copper ICs i tried had a glare, perhaps these don't, never tried them.  Very expensive $. My local dealer sells all versions and he likes the silver ovals quite a bit.    

on AP site:

"Constructed of pure silver over a stabilizing strand of oxygen-free copper, woven into our patented hollow oval geometry in an oval-coaxial configuration."

rodman999993,949 posts
09-01-2019 6:04am
..I believe silver(especially monocrystalline), being the best conducting metal extant, reveals more of what it’s presented, good or bad. iow: It(the conductor/interconnect/cable) gets blamed for what it’s fed(construction/dielectric are important, of course)...

Not sure which IC cable AP/Rob was referring to but said they have one with copper mains and a separate 3rd silver lead that gives yet another blend. Agree about source components. And,garbage in, garbage out too. I for one listen to a lot of old imperfect recordings, flaws and all. Playing the same blissful perfectly recorded tracks over too many times drives my wife nuts after testing ends. Back to music. LOL.

For years I ran some of the forgiving Cardas Golden Cross cables to help mask some of these bad recordings (with solid state gear) at a loss of the true sound stage, inner detail, and musicality now heard on some of the higher res remastered recordings. After 40+ years with SS gear (no more), past five years settled on a tube DAC, tube pre, tube mono blocks for part of it, and recently trying the Analysis Plus Crystal Solos between Pre-to-Amp has allowed the truth to come through as-is (good or bad). A nice balance so far. The 16-bit tube "ladder" DAC with the right interconnect cables has been interesting and super helpful too (tunable with tubes too), no longer listening to components and now listening to "music" again. Now the good cables allow one to hear what was always there, just had to let it come through :)



.....

b_limo  posts
09-01-2019 11:19am
..I actually purchased these cables instead of a nice sub because what these cables did overall for my system far exceeded what a sub did. The highs are there... and for me, most importantly, the soundstage and holographic imaging just reels me in. It’s actually hard to finish a post because the music commands my attention. I love it, and I love these cables!

Nice. With 35hrs+ on the AP Crystal Solo interconnects so far, going back and re-listening to many mid 1970s songs I've heard hundreds of times. Hearing nice tones, keyboards, guitars, piano is more natural, some added layering with nuances surfacing way out in the sound stage.  Nice easy listening at low volume level is a bonus! 

re: AP Crystal Solo Oval copper interconnects, update #2, pair #2. 

------------------------------------------------------------------
A note and question to other AP Crystal Solo owners, thanks:  

Just picked up a 2nd 1.5M pair of the Crystal Solo ICs to (test not mixing brands/types) to run identical cables between tube DAC to tube preamp and Preamp to tube Amps - end to end, all Solos. Removed my Cardas Parsec ICs which I like and they have their own sound/tone, decent at a lower price point, and maybe I'm just use to their particular tone having owned many Cardas ICs past 25+ years.  This writeup is premature, no doubt - just capturing thoughts. 

I can say I'm not yet use to the sound of the the recently new  AP Crystal Solo ICs when run end-to-end.  It's actually quite a bit different from what I even recall demoing Cardas Clear Cygnus which had an open and detailed (more neutral sound) compared to my older Cardas from the Cross lines which had a warmer and more veiled over sound which worked great for my  brighter SS amps and not as well with my tube gear.  Back to AP Solos... sorry, trying to rationalize this new sound with when doubling up with all AP solos; not broken in yet, fwiw.  

With AP Crystal Solos ICs I immediately noticed an even larger and deeper sound stage adding in the 2nd pair in-line, more detail and texture, with maybe a tad less fullness at first compared to my Cardas Parsec which are well broken in.  The AP Crystal Solos (both pairs) maybe have 60 hours on them max. Running two pairs, there is no hiding anything.  What goes in is what comes out (good or bad), almost to the degree it's as if I'm hearing things i've NEVER heard before on any of my prior amps or 20+ interconnects I've tested before.  It's clear all of my prior cables were leaving something on the table, and the AP Crystal Solos don't or not a lot. It's one of those IMO "watch out what you ask for" situations, or maybe I'm truly more use to a softer more veiled over sound. Another way to look at it is it sounds a lot better when I let my tube preamp and amps really warm up for 2+ hours, smooths out a tad more to compensate a bit I guess, for now.  

While these are still settling in, relaxing, whatever happens letting them play (~up to 300hrs ???) is kind of frustrating and intriguing to see IF anything really changes (at all) once I get to 100-150-300hrs. 
I'm not sure I really needed the 2nd pair, and intermixing brands was working well previously for my particular system.  Now with all AP Solos end to end, it's as if I have a completey different sound to multiple components, and hearing something quite different now as my particular system is highly sensitive to IC changes, for good or bad. :)  They sound quite a bit different from the AP cable one level below.  These are way more open and transparent, have the dielectric same as the upper end silvers have as I understand it now.


Comparing the first 2 hours to hour 35-60 does sound a wee bit smoother now, maybe.  The sound I'd characterize compared to my former smoother or neutral test ICs is this with AP Crystal Solo ICs:

Early Changes noticed at 35-60 hours:
-Larger sound stage (tall and wide too)
-Deeper sound stage (pushed back some more)
-Added layering (overtones,...reverb-ish harmonics?)
-Added detail at top, mids (not overly harsh though)
-Everything is faster, top to bottom (tight bass too)
-Change of tone(s); piano, guitar, voices are scary clear
-Cleaner and more open (for better or worse)
-Guitars have more grain, grunge, twang 
-Familiar songs do sound different (wasn't expecting this)
-Hearing things I've never heard before in songs 


300HRS ??? Break-In, Burn-In, Setting, Really?
I'm really curious to know impatiently WHAT actually changes with the sound after such a long break-in period. 

-Does it become more open or smoother?
-What changes after the full 300hrs, if anything?

jtcf694 posts
09-16-2019 3:07pm
Thank you for posting @decooney .I have no answers but I’m very interested in your impressions.I’m still letting my speaker cables and one ic break in.I’m hoping the sound opens up more but if not maybe a second ic (what brand to choose?) will do the trick.I’m hearing many details and layers but somehow at the same time it’s a little too dark and polite.

jtcf,
re: What brand/design/type to choose is personal taste IMO, depending on what you want to accomplish. I was in your shoes in a similar fashion. I knew my older cables from my former SS amps were soft (on purpose) and smooth but veiled over. I concluded this after trying some well known clear/open cables on demo with my current tube gear. The difference was not insignificant. I tend to favor a more lush sound but not at major expense of sound stage, clarity and depth. Maybe wanting my cake and eat it too -or- simply to find something "in between", 1/2 way - wishful thinking, maybe or maybe not. I kept reading about the the AP Crystal Solos after trying the regular ovals. Crystal Solo Ic Pair #1 worked well when placed at the source and paired with a softer cable downstream. However, I kept wondering if I was losing some sound stage or clarity as a result of having a mixed-matched pair of different types. Wanted to try two pairs of the same type. Sure enough. Everything seems to come at a compromise on my system one way or the other. 

As to your Question, yes, I did go with a 2nd pair of Analysis Plus Crystal Solo 1.5M interconnects to run between my tube preamp to tube mono amplifiers. At first they were almost too open, too clear, too clean but was told to be patient, let them relax, settle (in theory). Now in to the 2nd week they are plenty open but softening up a tad but only after I’m running the gear nice and warm 4+ hours. Not sure if I’ll part with my former Cardas Parsec, as I can swap them back in for an even softer sound with a 60 second swap. So far, liking the 2nd pair of AP Crystal Solos for my tube system. Its definitely worth trying the same or mixing and matching as an experiment, YMMV. Good Luck. Feel free to send a PM on Agon if needed.

jtcf700 posts
09-20-2019 1:05pm
Quick update - I gave the system a day off yesterday after reaching the 50+ hour mark.Today lo and behold....those Analysis Plus spcs are beginning to open up and lose the veil.They definitely need some time and a patient owner.

re: Break-in / Burn-in of new or used AP Crystal Solo Interconnects.

I had to check myself and wishful thinking.  A colleague just picked up a set of used AP Solos ICs too.  He said his were a tad bright at first, and they started to settle after some play time.  And, I just found a post by a member on AudioAsylum who's experience was identical to mine and yours (even with already-broken in cables). I could see a new set needing some cable relax time but was not quite onboard at first with used AP cables needing a setting in period.  I do know on many of my former Cardas they seemed to benefit after just sitting and relaxing for 2-3 weeks as in less tension after being coiled up for a while.  Still comparing the APs as time runs on.  

jtcf706 posts09-25-2019 8:41pm
...After the leap in SQ after 50 hours I've been mesmerized by how clear percussion nuances are becoming.I can almost see the drum kits...

Jtcf,
I'm stupidly still trying to figure out why the AP Crystal Copper Solos (OCC) sound so much more open and deeper sound stage compared to the (OFC) Copper oval ones just below them. The Cardas Clear Cygnus were similar but $300 more a pair, ouch.    Tried both Oval Ones and Crystal Solos from AP. The Solos are much more detailed and transparent than the cable one below it, and an engineer at AP told me the it's not just the design layout and "dialectic" but it's also the type of  ultra pure "extruded copper used in the Solo".  I saw a photo of the broken grain in OFC vs. OCC, quite different. OCC looks like is 90% solid with little fractures. OFC is all little bits and pieces in under a microscope view. Maybe thats part of it.  IMO, the Crystal Solos sound a bit closer to silver interconnects than other OFC copper (or) in comparison to many other high grade copper cables I've demoed, tried, or owned.  A buddy with triode amps and a major tube roller called me after running his recently acquired Solos this past week and told me he really likes them "a lot". He is now going back and re-rolling tubes in his amps, preamps, and more just to really hear the added benefit of the AP Crystal Solos - and he is a total anti-cable guy who only bought studio grade Belden, Mogami, Morrows prior. Not now, another AP convert. Works well in some systems and maybe not others. He noticed a rewarding difference too.  One pair is really good in my system. Two pairs end-end-end I'm still getting use to it or maybe more burn-in and settling time is required. It's almost too open and transparent at times, if that makes sense.  Not sure yet.. got some 100+ hours to go I guess.  Keep us updated on your progress over time too. 

jtcf710 posts
09-30-2019
12:35pm

...it can start to lose tone and timbre and become overly airy?Not enough "meat on the bones" ?...

...discovered an entire layer of background instrumentation that was never there before.The vocals were just spooky,I could hear the air rushing from her mouth...

Yes, exactly on both counts.  With another week on my ICs I notice a little bit more bottom end starting to come through, slightly.  Damn, maybe it really does take 200-300hrs for APs to settle in, ugh. 

Yes, and 100% thumbs up on tube gear with Herseys.  No doubt.
A buddy (with prior systems and limited space now) has spent the past five years optimizing his amps, sources, 6SN7 input & 6L6 output tubes, caps and cabling - fine tuning around the Herseys.

@jtcf 718 posts
10-05-2019 12:23pm
The Heresys were fun to listen to!This pair were manufacured in 1977.Great midrange but no detail on top,just hash.We figured new parts inside are needed,and some tweaking too.My brother was very impressed how the tubes made them come alive.
I'm resigned to waiting for these things as long as it takes.They already sound so much better than the Clear Days or Black Cat.But I'm with you,impatient to try a couple of other things to squeeze out the last bit of performance possible.

UPDATE#3:  
Was away this past week, let the AP Crystal Solos just sit, not playing, all systems off - left both pairs installed (recent new pair 1m, used pair 1.5M).  This morning I let me tube gear, tube DAC warm up for 1.5hrs and start playing at 2-2.5 hours, just streaming some regular play lists.  Well... as it turns out, as I'm playing all sorts of different lossless tracks, just streaming on Tidal Hi-Fi and normally about 50% of it can be kind of harsh to my ears, even with a 16bit ladder tube DAC.  Not today.  Woah...what's going on....And, right on the heels of purchasing a pair of TJFM 6SN7 input tubes  last night for my preamp, to see if my NOS Sylvanias are too bright with my tube preamp. They were not too bright until I tried these AP Solos the first time before letting them relax and settle in. So, back to listening this morning after some warmup.  I notice something is definitely different and not sure why.  

So, I start running through all sorts of different play lists thinking I'm just hitting well recorded tracks... then, start looking for tracks I know are normally harsh with older/bad recordings... I keep thinking its my ears or something else.  Nope.  For whatever friggin' voodoo magic reason, it's starting to sound plush, fuller, and just how the AP tech described could happen.  He told me it would "smooth out some more, just give it time".  Now I'm not even sure I need the TJFM input tubes, kinda sounding good as-is.  My buddy is now only 1 week into his AP Solo ICs.  I messaged him to be patient and give then a few more weeks to relax, settle, whatever it is - it does change after they've been played or sitting relaxed for 2-3+ weeks undisturbed, and YMMV. Very odd, unexpected, and improved!  

I thought I could only have one pair of AP Solo ICs max in the system, but after both pairs have been played beyond 100hrs and settled in more, both pairs are staying for sure. I guess the instructions (if read :) indicate up to ~300 hours of burn in time. I guess I want to believe that now. Wow, it’s not voodoo, it’s real I guess. Time has really favored these cables.

Same as you, correct, the imaging is really good and what’s blowing me away is the separation of instruments and sounds. Nothing is blurred or blended together like most if not all of my former copper cables and including my former silver-over-copper interconnects. All system dependent of course but really noticeable in my setup. It’s a pretty neat discovery to make so late in the game I guess. :) 

@jtcf720 posts
10-07-2019 9:46am
I know!Crazy isn’t it?Letting them rest seems to be important too.It’s hard to retain my dignity and keep from gushing.They are very special.
-----------------------------------------
@b_limo OP993 posts
10-07-2019 10:36am
I’ve never noticed cables sounding different by letting them rest as well. I noticed that myself over the past week or two as I’m not running music through my system daily anymore.

"tension released after being coiled up and then sitting for 2-3 weeks in the same position" is one explanation I received years ago from another cable mfg. As in, it flows more evenly once tension is gone and the cable strands are all relaxed. That’s 3 for 3. Either its true or we are all crazy wishful thinkers, haha.

Update#4:  After my updates to a friend who is a very practical and reasonably skeptical audio colleague broke down and bought a pair of AP Crystal Solo 1m interconnects for his triode amp system with horn speakers. He too experienced the overly open and bright sound first few days. Then, notified me and said it started smoothing out some after the first 3-4 days, and changing again (good to bad to good again) after 2 weeks. Today he confirmed they are  "keepers" for him too. However, we agreed - change one thing and it can cause one to look at fine tuning in other areas too. 

Now both of us agree we are hearing "things" we've never heard before in old recordings we've listened to many times prior using other (non-OCC) OFC copper or silver over copper interconnects. 

As a result, both of us are revisiting front-end input signal tubes (again) with our tube preamps to see what we can discover now that our interconnect cables have opened a new door.  Good fun. 

To @rodman99999
rodman999994,044 posts10-08-2019 7:30am@decooney- Off topic, but: what tube family, does your pre use?

Preamp:
6SN7 tubes on preamp. Two signal/input tubes and two driver tubes. A quad of N7s. Cary SLP-98 with F1 type of mods, caps, hexfreds. Now using Sylvania vintage 6SN7GT Black plates. Just ordered a set of TJ Fullmusic to try for fun, to hoard and save off the Sylvanias if possible.

Amp/Input:
12AU7 signal/input and 12AT7 driver tubes on each amp. Using Mullard vintage M8136 and CV4024 in these spots.

rodman999994,051 posts
10-08-2019 9:34am
Sylvania...two hole, bottom-gettered

I have a quad of the 2-hole bottom gettered now and they do sound nice and airy for sure. Used them for years on three different amps. Keepers for sure. But, with AP cables, maybe a change is in order.

Back to AP Crystal Solo ICs:
With the new and 1/2 way broken in interconnects (2 pairs), these tubes put me right on the edge of where I want to be. One pair mixed with another pair of full copper ICs in-stream is really nice. Add two pairs in the path and wow, it’s amazingly open, detailed, massively deep sound stage - but I lose a bit of lushness as it seems none of the signal gets rounded off (as designed). Why? What comes in is what comes out (as designed as I take it now). Nice, just more than I’m use to with hi-reso music content, even with a 16-bit ladder tube DAC . So, a few more considerations to try:

1) Let the AP ICs burn in some more beyond 150 hours (yes, likely).
2) Try some different (softer) input tubes on the preamp later; next. Premium Full Music 6SN7s are next.
3) Let my QS mono 120 tube amps, caps, burn in more past 300hrs (eliminate other variables).

An audio colleague friend of mine is reminding me again about "patience" when adding/changing components, tubes, cables, and letting things settle in. Even after 45 years of this with audio, every day is a new day of learning with audio it seems, and that’s what keeps it fun and interesting too.

**
Mixing Analysis Plus Crystal Solo cables within tube audio gear has been a new experience so far. Looking forward to more "experimentation", and now with these AP cables as others noted in this thread. :)
**

@jtcf 

I know, huh?!,..change one variable and I create two more.      Perhaps "Its the journey, not the destination" I guess ;) 

A buddy picked up a set of the AP Crystal Solo interconnects too. He's now in his 3rd week of use, letting them play and settle in. 

He too reported they are notably more open and detailed than his prior copper ICs he used from Belden and others. Maybe a tad less full sounding due to no rounding off of the high freq or mids now.

Reporting as I go...For a few days this past week it seemed like the solos sounded full, then the next day not, and maybe a week later back to more neutral.  Kind of a roller coaster during the first month of burn-in and settling.  

Both of us are liking the AP Crystal Solo ICs and how they tend to separate individual instruments - but also going back to now messing with tubes in our preamps and tubes in our DACs to pick up some of the fullness.

The AP Solos definitely have a larger and deeper sound stage for sure compared to other average copper ICs.  How they manage to not blend or not blur individual instruments on some tracks is quite interesting compared to all the other cables I've tried before... Hmmm.  

@rodman99999 
I've not mixed N7s lately with this setup, and plan to again soon, and exactly..will do. I parted with my last good sets with my prior amps I sold, and recently purchased a few others recently.  Will retry  in a few weeks. But, came across a new idea today with feedback from a friend who tried running yet a different tube in our same DACs and he kinda struck gold.  I may follow suit on that front. He says he's "keeping the AP cables now for sure", got it settled down a bit. Sounds promising. May try that too. One tube in DAC vs. (4) 6SN7s or (2) pairs mixed in my preamp. 

@jtcf yes, my buddy kinda solved it on his system today. We kept talking about going back and "messing with the source". He tried it, pulled out a brighter GE 5670 and went with a Tesla he had from his box, put it in the DAC and he said the issue is immediately Solved for him. Says the tone and presentation sits right about half way between the GE 5670 and the WE396A we've been running with our DACs. He likes this solution a lot.   Back to DAC tubes for me too, makes more sense to try this next. Will give it a go.  Will have to order this single tube soon. I sold my big Cary amp to a friend and working to get the big QS monos to sound how I want them, and taming the KT150s is a double-edge sword, it was much easier with my prior-prior amp with GL KT88s. That was a neat sound. Hang on to those QS monos, with the upgrades apparently they can be pretty darn sweet.  Good fun.  The AP cable experiment was to see what the amps would do at their best. Now for some fine tuning to smooth things back out, just a tad. Or, grow some more patience I guess :)                  

@b_limo   
Yes, if you find that link on "separation" AP Solos, Please post here.Good stuff. Thx. Glad to learn you guys are hearing the same in your rigs, cool.  

jtcf10-13-2019 1:07pm

@decooney I swapped out the 5977 mini tubes in the DAC for a pair of GL 6922 and your friend was spot on.A big thanks to both of you.It made quite a difference with the higher gain tubes.The system practically breathed a sigh of relief.
@geoffkait from what I’ve read, different configurations filter noise differently.Makes sense but I really don’t know.Shhh don’t tell anyone;-)

That’s great news, glad it worked for you. I’m still waiting for my replacements in a week or so. We’ve been talking how one can mess around making several changes, with little progress. And, then with persistence, finding that "one" thing that hits the spot and helps to bring everything into focus. Thumbs up! 

The AP Crystal Solos continue to reveal whatever is thrown at them.

This week I changed out vintage Sylvania 6SN7GT preamp tubes for new-production Tung-Sol tubes. A lot more burn-in required I gather. Nice and full sounding right off the bat. Clean but a bit dry and less texture in the first 10-20 hours. The AP Crystal Sol ICs do what they are suppose to do for sure. Hoping 80 more hours of burn-in will help. It’s worth a test I guess...maybe TJ Full Music next.

The AP Crystal Solo interconnect cables are a very nice pairing particularly when the synergy on the front end source is good. This is my conclusion. The AP Solos help it to sound greater when the right component match is achieved in order to take advantage of them.

UPDATE #4:
I’ve been running the new production re-issue Tung Sol 6SN7s in my tube preamp for the past three days solid. After some serious burn-in I like them, a LOT, and better than I thought I would. I’m not sure I’ll be so quick to put my vintage 6SN7s back in my preamp. There is a full triode effect coming through now, and the cables put it in focus for sure. The cables and tubes are staying put for a while. I find I'm not listening to components as much, and back to listening to music. A good sign.

@jtcf seems so. Thx.  

After these burn in a little more, I'll let them run for a bit (set them a aside a bit) and still have a pair of TJ Full Music 6SN7s coming a buddy talked me in to trying.  He's using them with his new AP  cables and his new DAC tube in his preamp.  He now says his AP solos are keepers but had to tune the front end a bit more to smooth things out since "everything comes through" with the APs Crystal Solos on his system too.  

Some people say cables don't make a difference. :)  In a revealing system they sure do and can make it better or worse when garbage-in garbage out applies. 

jtcf,
got your msg and i'll post it here after 3+ weeks of burn in.    

AP Solos Interconnects:  
The AP Crystal Solo IC cables settled ever so slightly, and while they are a little smoother now, they still can be like focusing a closeup high definition camera right up close to someone's face on video. They do not filter out much like some other overly stranded copper cables can do. With the Crystal Solos,  If you play nice smooth audio tracks, you hear nice smooth audio.  If the content is grainy or edgy streamed tracks, what goes in comes out.  What to do...

DAC Tube:
I went back to my DAC and pulled the tube originally on the edge of bright and transparent and replaced it with a much smoother and rich sounding tube to help remedy the situation.  The improvement is a tad less detail to lose some of the grain, however at some loss of soundstage size and depth. A tradeoff I guess.  

Preamp Tubes:
I pulled the new-production TS 6SN7 tubes and went back to NOS driver tubes and another new pair of input tubes for a different tone.  This helped some and Its "clear" pun intended, once you add AP Crystal Solos, every other change in the chain becomes that much more evident - tube changes too!  They let you hear it.  

Changing the tube on the DAC helped the most.  I'll put another few weeks on this configuration and reevaluate one last time.  

Conclusion:
Caving in. After trying several combos (over many years in different systems) I’ve concluded I cannot run two pairs of the exact same brand/type/model interconnects (in my system) from source to preamp to amps and enjoy the music. Intermixing CAN allow for the right amount of salt and pepper and spice.


Privately, a friend inside a well known manufacturer admitted this is something they realized can happen and now recommend people try it. Same goes for tubes as many leaned long before I did. Worth a try.

I just proved this as a viable option (in my system) in both directions, and people with symmetry obsessions can stop reading here, just kidding, kinda...

A) If I run two pairs of the AP Crystal Solos OCC RCAs, its too lean.

B) If i run two pairs of my Cardas it was too fat on older versions and too lean on newer versions.

C) INTERMIXING one AP Crystal Solo (OCC) pair and one Cardas Parsec pair works really well in my particular system. I have owned/tried many other Cardas models in the past.This led me to AP.

Choosing "C".  

Your Mileage May Vary. Done listening to cables and compensating tube and cap changes for a while, now back to music. If you get stuck, give intermixing a try - it’s another viable option :)

jtcf754 posts11-02-2019 11:26am@jtcf +1 Relax and enjoy:) Exactly what I'm doing now.Hoping to be able to post with my winning combo soon too.

Good to know.  Curious to see what you come up with.  If my system had most tubes that were super laid back, somewhat veiled over, and speakers that were not not revealing, I could probably make two pairs of the AP Crystal Solos in series work. Yes, I do lose some sound stage size and depth and micro detail when mixing in other non-AP Crystal cables for the 2nd pair.  That is the drawback. Kinda bummed as the AP Crystal Solos do so many other things really well, like no other cable I've ever tried in any of my current or prior systems.  

However the right mix of AP crystals with other type ICs in the signal path can produce a more pleasing tone and musical lushness. I ran into a similar situation with running two pairs of "Clear" Cygnus type cables with Cardas on loan.  The lower version cables like Parsec worked out much better in certain spots, only at the source.  Not doubled up. Same situation here.  Perhaps its just finding that "window" in each individuals setup and hearing sensitivity at certain frequencies.    

Found the midrange "spike and glare" culprit with my new AP Crystal ICs.

Swapped my new 1.0M (200hrs) pair to my amps, and moved the longer 1.5M pair (400hrs) to my DAC. Fixed. Also the sound stage and voices stepped back a little too, not so forward now, picked up some upper detail (not harsh), with added lower bass weight too. Makes absolutely no sense, but it worked.

Difference?
The only difference between the two pairs is (.5M) length, 200hrs more use on the longer pair and they are one year older.

I did read once on another forum where folks were complaining they were hearing digital glare running too short of RCA ICs with DACs.

Not sure why, but the results were instantaneous for whatever reason... I plan to call Rob at AP to see if they made any changes to types of purity of OCC copper or soldering used as a guess.... both of the same pairs of cables are still in the same signal path, just arranged in a different order now. Strange.

@jtcf 761 posts
11-09-2019 10:09pm
That is really interesting.I know that a too short digital cable is troublesome,but ics too?Every little thing really does matter even if it shouldn't.I'll be interested to hear what Rob says.I'm still waiting impatiently to demo other cables.The last piece of the puzzle I think.

It might be more believable if there was a difference in version or connector types or different type internal wire used, but these are the same version cables and visually in every way, just 1.0M vs. 1.5M and slight age/use difference - that's it.  My buddy ended up with a 2.0M pair of AP Crystal IC in a used system he purchased at an audio show.  I remember the MFG factory guy just saying the liked the longer ICs better in that particular all tube system.  While I've read it written many times over the years,  many note "use longer ICs" and "shorter speaker cables", perhaps some truth to this with digital source components. It's extra noticeable on more inferior recordings played via high resolution streaming services through my tube DAC. Yes, tried many different tubes in my DAC, different preamp tubes, and nothing rid that upper midrange glare.  Then swapping the 1.0M and 1.5M IC placement did at the DAC.  Kinda having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one. 

re: DIGITAL COAX RCA cable: ???
Some people praise this change while other's may not.  

REQUEST: 
Has anyone here tried or using the Analysis Plus Crystal Solo [DIGITAL COAX] cable in 1.0M or 1.5M in your rig?  Any notable difference? 

@jtcf
...I have a basic understanding of how reflections and timing errors distort the digital signal so finding one that is a perfect match is yet another adventure.

-----------------------

Okay, good to know. So let the experiment continue. I ordered a 1.5M coax AP Crystal Solo on a black friday sale. Not sure what to expect, but I’ve wanted to try this for a while completing the system with AP Crystal Solos. More than a few places I’ve read the shorter .5m and even 1.0m can produce more "reflection", bounce-back, and "glare" compared to a tad longer 1.5M.  I did not believe it myself until trying it and comparing. So, I tested it with ICs on my DAC to pre first and truly did see a difference, like it more. So, I’ll try the same with my Arcam streamer to DAC next, and need 1.5M regardless keeping them apart. Guess I should not be too quick to let go of my Cardas lightning and other cables yet til’ I let this new cable run for a while. Last piece to complete the chain with all AP Crystal Solos. 

re: "timing". Speaking of timing, I was driving myself batty past few weeks after adding some Jensen PIO bypass caps to the DAC, paralleled over some Mundorf Silver Gold Oils as the base caps in the tube DAC. Even up to 100hrs of burn-in I kept hearing something almost like an added reverb / out of timing effect on some instruments on good tracks. Almost a reverb (1.25x repeat sound) and blurring or smearing effect at times. I really noticed the difference with my AP Crystal Solo cables, not so much with my Cardas interconnects which tend to smooth over a bit more. Finally gave up and removed the bypass caps. As soon as they were removed, the timing issue was completely GONE - back to normal, nice clean smooth signal, improved sound stage too. It was really odd, and never had played with or experienced notable timing issues much except for tweeter/woofer mis-alignments in my own custom speakers. While I've had okay success with other bypass caps, components, this was a first and a surprise to a few audio friends. Perhaps just an incompatibility between two different type caps.

Trying the different AP cables has been a fun experiment, the Crystal Solos OCC copper version seems to be in it’s own lane if you like this type of sound, tone, sound stage changes - it’s unique. 

BURN-IN HYPE or REAL with AP cables ???

Not sure if I’m having one good or bad day with my ears either, but I could swear maybe these AP cables do tend to burn-in with more time. Is the recommended 300hrs of burn-in time the manufacturer for real, I don’t know, maybe so. They are finally starting to sound a little warmer with another 100hrs on them.

[Disregard] my former post about intermixing my Cardas and AP interconnects to achieve improved softer sound. It changed again... As things settled more past few weeks, I actually had to put the 2nd pair of AP Crystal Solo OCC interconnects back in the system. Its not nearly as lean now. No, its not just a matter of getting use to them. A quick swap back to other cables helps prove the differences and improvements over time.

Its changed enough that I’m going back and retrying different preamp tubes again, and the cables help to further show differences in tubes too.

As long as all gear is fully warmed up 1.5hrs+, the APs sound smoother than first 100hrs.

[Keeping it an all AP cable thread]

Goal and Score >> AP crystal solo Digital Coax in the house! <<

Next / AP Digi Crystal Solo Coax?
After replacing the input tubes on my preamp with smoother ones, further realizing what the AP Crystal Solo interconnect cables can do - i thought to myself [and reading for two more weeks about cables, jitter, and how it’s not just zeroes and ones] "I wondered what more the crystal solo DIGITAL COAX could offer - if anything"? Skeptical but willing.

Results:
Tone and added "texture" is coming through now, like never before. Now detail comes through yet digital glare and top-end harshness is pretty much eliminated. Music kinda just flows now, effortlessly at lower volumes.

How?
Not sure how but it’s as if the weak link (closer to the source, early in the chain) was eliminated and now both pairs of AP Crystal Solo interconnects and now the AP Crystal Solo Coax are all working together as a complete chain end-to-end, source to DAC to preamp to amps. While I cannot explain how or why, it works, well - for whatever reason.

YRMV your results may vary.

Enjoy!

Formerly messing with silver cables I equated "open" sounding designs with more detailed results too. Its pretty neat how these OCC copper crystal solo cables can be open, larger sound stage, and yet still smooth with detail at the same time. It just works.  

--------------------------------
re: BURN-IN up to ~300HRs
Straight from the horses mouth (the designer with various engineering and physics degrees and patents). He shared this with me today after my inquiry if all AP Crystal IC and Digital and Speaker cables take "300hrs" to burn in. He said this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
"I am sure there must be a difference but just about every reviewer has felt all cables take 300 hours to fully break-in"...

@b_limo
hi jack away! I‘m loving hearing about your tweaks. I’m learning alot from your journaling and I’m sure others are / will as well. I’ve been asking myself similar questions and your feedback is hugely appreciated! Thanks for the continual updating fellas 👍. Seriously, it is helpful and not going unnoticed.

Thanks for listing all of your equipment as well. It helps everyone reading this to know exactly where you are coming from. My amp/pre, dac (Anthem I-225, Bluesound Node 2i) is pretty entry level yet I can hear the same results as you guys are hearing.
Whenever I had used to try to break down what percentage of your money goes where, I’d allot 10-15% for cables. I thought that amount was actually high. Now I’d say 20-35% should be spent. Also, if you can swing a bunch of these Solo Crystals, you’ll be done forever and every component (speakers, amps, dacs, pre’s) will benefit. I would love to have heard my favorite personal system I ever owned, with these in place.

Tried again for the fourth time going back to decent former interconnects to check myself and hearing. No way, each time lasting about ten minutes immediately missing all sorts of things from my former cables when comparing to AP Crystal Solos [in my system].

After several listening sessions, there is more here to these particular AP crystal solo cables than I originally anticipated they would bring.

For Bright sounding systems (not a good match, likely):
If I had an overly bright solid state amplifier and super lean sounding speakers I’d stop here. These OCC cables are not passive EQ filters like some overly laid back heavy OFC copper cables. Unless you have poor hearing in upper frequencies, these might not fit well in some systems.

For Smooth sounding systems (yes, can be a nice improvement):
In a relatively smooth sounding system where the high frequencies are not overly accentuated, these cables can really shine - as the OCC copper and this design seems to bring forward everything.

Most Surprising Discovery (comparing to softer OFC copper cables):
#1 Sound stage increase (wide, tall, and deep), decay
#2 Added separation of instruments, truly a new experience.
#3 Added clarity to vocals, strings, detail, and some added texture.   
#4 Bass control and speed of bass was really kind of a surprise. Not mushy.  
#5 Deeper bass, not necessarily boomier. Lower bass detail comes from nowhere.  

It takes some getting use to at first if you are use to lower quality OFC cables or less. Sure, burn-in time, whatever...but the cables bring forth "more" of everything. Once I realized what was going on, really started liking them. Once acclimated its hard to go back to other cables :)

Tube amp owners (note):
You may find yourself revisiting your input tubes in preamps, DACs, input tubes on your amp(s). Once you hear what the interconnect cables offer when used end-to-end, it can trigger desires for further tuning to shape the tone as you will hear new things with capable gear, speakers. As for solid state amps/preamps, if it’s harsh - it’s going to expose it more. These cables are bitchen’ with really good tube pre/amps.

Burn-in:
Again, told 300hrs but I’m just enjoying the cables (as-is) for what they do now, willing to just listen and hoping they don’t change a lot, seem to be about the same at 200hrs for the past 50hrs, maybe just a micro detail smoother now after 150hrs. I did hear speaker cables take longer, maybe interconnects not quite 300hrs speaking with a few at mfg.

@jtcf
@decooney you have a whole loom now!I might end up with one too.I’m somewhat of a cable junkie and am still trying some different ics.But the speaker cables are staying forever.Somehow the Analysis ics keep finding their way back between the pre and amp,just a perfect fit apparently.But the digital cable and the ic between dac and pre I continue to "try just one more and I promise to quit" .Right.
The speaker cables are just so revealing it’s interesting to hear how each change is better/worse.I’ll write a little more about that later.

I gotta say, all priors with OFC copper and before I tried AP cables I could mix and match other cables and levels and achieve something to stick with for a while and leave it alone.

Once I tried the OCC copper with AP interconnects and started moving them around within my system, something really different occurred. Puzzling, actually. Then I had to try a second pair, and yes closing with the full loop with AP Crystal Digi Coax.

The OCC oval interconnect result is smoothness of copper and the detail of silver over copper blended together with a specific un-smeared type of sound top to bottom. Clear and smooth, not sure how else to describe it. Time will tell if the cables actually change or smooth out any more with long term use.  We will see...

Last update and post on AP "Crystal" OCC interconnects and lesson’s learned. 
Heads up, these specific OCC copper cables may cause you to completely re-evaluate other pieces of your gear after 60 days of use, burn-in, and using these ICs end-to-end now throughout my entire two channel audio system.

Yes, the Analysis Plus Crystal Solos open up pandoras box. Both good and bad come with them, whatever the source and recording is.

These Crystal Sol IC cables and the partner Crystal Digi Coax cable from AP forced me to go back and completely re-evaluate and re-tube my tube preamp and the re-tube the input tubes on my mono tube amplifiers.

Once opening the floodgates with the crystal (OCC copper) AP interconnect cables, watch out what you ask for as it all comes through with larger sound. Sure, burn in helps over time but it does not tame or mask any garbage recordings coming through like some thick OFC copper cables can do. These cables do what they are supposed to do, if you let them. Takes patience. Can be rewarding once you figure out how all the different pieces are working together (good or bad) end-to-end from source>cables>audio components>speaker cables>speakers.

Solution:
Re-tubed preamp with more lush tubes.
Re-tubed monoblock amps with more lush input tubes.

Result:
No edge, no harshness, larger soundstage, more musical midrange, no loss of upper end detail - yes, it’s possible. Now I can listen to most everything streamed (fair to good recordings) in Redbook CD lossless format. And, of course any great recording on CD or Streaming sounds great all of the time. Piano sounds like piano.  Guitar sounds like guitars should.  Voices are improved and it catches you by surprise some times when running these end-to-end throughout your system.    

As a reverse upgrade test, I revisited prior lower version interconnects from AP and other brands.  The difference is not subtle in comparison IF the rest of the system is up to par to take advantage of the AP Crystal Solo cables. Now I'm finding other cables I formerly used and tested to be closed in, having less texture and less enjoyable tone.  Also, while I can't be certain, with more time on these cables they really do seem to be settling in and it's not me just getting use to the sound.  

Analysis Plus"Crystal OCC":

16 months later, the AP Crystal Solo RCA interconnects definitely smoothed out and filled out. A very long settling in period. Patience is absolutely required for these.

Former founder/owner Mark Markel of Analysis Plus (now passed on) was spot on. He told me it would take 200-300hrs to finally settle. Recently compared to other very well known IC cables at 3x the price since too, keeping the AP Crystals!

Can hear things waaaay out there, at LOW volume too. Top end is there, smooth, no loss of detail, and bottom end really starts coming in after long burn in time. Thanks to Mark up there, wherever you are. :)

FYI, we are referring more so to the Crystal copper "OCC" version of the Analysis Plus speaker cables and interconnect cables and digital coax cables in OCC. OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) in the AP patented "Oval" design. In comparison to prior OFC cables. 

https://satinaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/satin-occ-ofc.jpg

@b_limo
The big silver ovals result in more upper end detail. I had silvers in another brand before going back to AP OCC copper "Crystal RCA interconnects fwiw.

For grins, every once in a while I’ll swap back to other various OFC copper ICs in higher grades of other brands (on demo-loan) and OFC have grain, not as smooth, not as expansive in the sound stage as the OCC copper crystals. Also, noticed once they sat in place for a while the OCC Crystals seem to have an element of lower micro dynamics in the bass region. It’s very noticeable when using the tube mono block amplifiers too. If I swap back to OFC, that ultra low bass register tends to disappear. An added benefit I was not expecting with AP oval design OCC Crystal copper interconnects