Analog vs Digital Confusion

I think all these opinions are fair expressions of people's experience. One
of the concerns I always have when people ask me about entering into
vinyl is whether they will get a true picture of what a vinyl front end is
capable of on a modest budget. If the 5k has to include the cost of the
phono pre, that puts you into a budget of pretty modest turntable/arms,
when adding a decent cartridge. I raised a similar issue on another forum,
which is whether in this price range, you are really getting the true measure
of what vinyl is capable of. Buying used may help you up the ante, but as I
kept improving the vinyl front end and associated phono stage, the level of
musical 'rightness' kept improving. And it's not just about spending money,
it is also dependent on the sonic character of the phono pre as well as a
good tone arm and a turntable that doesn't have obvious colorations.

I was trying to avoid the endless debate here over which is better in any absolute sense, and attempting to address the questions of a possible new entrant into vinyl as to what to expect. We could fight endlessly over the digital v analog debate, and I'm not sure that's productive. For what it's worth, I am vinyl only, but if I didn't have more than 40 years of records accumulated, and was on a budget, I'm not sure that vinyl is the right way in~ unless a substantial measure of top level vinyl performance can be achieved on a modest budget. That was the previous question I posed....

It may be helpful to divide the vinyl universe into two rough camps: the
dyed-in-the-wool all analog brigade, which is one of the reasons so many of
the pricey 'audiophile' reissues are of old records. This also includes the
fact that many of those records in original pressings are hard to find,
extremely expensive and rarely in mint condition. When
remastered using digital, you'll get an array of complaints about the sonics-
witness the controversy over the new Beatles set on vinyl. (But even
remasters that remain purely analog are often disappointing compared to
the originals for a variety of reasons). And, as you are no doubt aware,
there is a huge market for
old records, whether just standard issue pop, or collectible gems in all
genres because these predate the digital era.
At the same time, there's lot's of new music that has been mastered
digitally that sounds pretty good on vinyl. I don't make direct comparisons
to CDs because I don't have any digital playback in my main system, it is
vinyl only. But I'm happy to listen to new music, and buy a modest amount.
Some sounds terrific.
I would assume that entering into vinyl, you'd have an opportunity to
experience all sorts of vinyl: old records, reissues/remasters and new
music that is likely to have been recorded/mastered digitally.
I suppose there is one other argument: that 'limitations' of vinyl mask some
of the inherent nastiness of digital. But I don't think there's much validity to
that argument these days. First, digital has come a long way since its
introduction, both in terms of the gear and the know-how to use it in
recording and mastering. Second, a first rate vinyl set-up doesn't really
have to suffer many limitations in its ability to deliver very transparent, lively
sonics.
So, what i think you wind up with is the ability to playback some real jewels
from a by gone era and be amazed at the amount of sonic information in
those grooves; to try some of the better remasters of old records that you
wouldn't likely be able to find or want to buy at collector prices, and you can
still listen to many, not all of the latest releases on vinyl, when released in a
medium that may not be 'better' than digital but is still pretty
good.
Postscript: even before the advent of digital, there were still horrible
recordings, and over a good vinyl rig, you'll hear the good, the bad, and the
ugly.

One of the joys of vinyl for me is discovering, or rediscovering older records I own but either haven't listened to in decades or never knew I had. A few examples:
On my way to looking for something else, I found a very nice 6-eye of Take Five. I know it has been reissued recently, but this old Columbia record sounds amazing;
Blood, Sweat and Tears- standard issue Columbia from back in the day- amazing sonics and music.
I did break down and buy an OOP copy of 88 Basie St. on 45rpm. It is just a marvel.
I started acquiring records in the late 60's as a teen. Still have virtually all of them. I continued to buy in college, and law school and as I started working, though I had much less time to listen.
When CD entered and records were banished from the store shelves, I increased my record buying by a magnitude. Every town, city or country i visited involved buying records. And, working 6-7 days a week, I only had a chance to listen occasionally, to a limited number. After more than 40 years, I have accumulated a substantial collection- not all of it great, or super collectible (though some is). With a transition out of the fulltime practice of law after 32 years, I now have time to enjoy this collection, which continues to grow, selectively. (Of course, if someone offered a substantial collection to me today, I would buy it if it was priced appropriately). Not sure if this makes sense for someone just starting on vinyl, but there's still a ton out there, and if you are willing to take a chance, e-bay has a wealth of stuff- I'm not talking about the thousand dollar records, but the 8 and 10 dollar ones. With a good record cleaning machine, a willingness to take a chance and some research, you can probably have an even easier time of it today than I did, haunting dealers, searching through bins, and hauling records home on airplanes and in cabs. Granted, you have to trust a 'visual grade' and the seller's good faith, but you aren't going to be able to accomplish much more in a record store.

DcTom: if you are a young late 50's (or even early 60's) kinda guy, we are
roughly the same age. Love your table, too :) Yeah, so many albums, so
little time. But, now that I have the time, I'm really enjoying the process of
discovery. And, I love finding something 50 years old that sounds killer.
Musically, I'm still learning my way around the jazz world, other than the
obvious stuff. Classical, I kinda come and go, depending on mood- I went
through a 'big choral' period and a 'cello' period, what I should really do is
just sit down and listen to symphonies, but there's only so much of one type
of music or a single composer that I can take in a single session; I mix it up,
I'll go from some Sibelius to Led Zep to some old Verve or Pablo jazz
record. BTW, that 45 rpm version of 88 Basie St., which somebody had
recommended to me is just an unbelievably good record, musically and
sonically. And, the remaster of Sachmo doing St. James Infirmary is
wickedly entertaining. But, i've found gems on e-bay used for cheap that
have cleaned up great. Not doing ultrasonic cleaning yet, but that's to
come- I was waiting for the dust to settle on the Audio Desk.
For the OP, re TT recommendations, (and I'm shooting in the dark a little
here, so invite help), isn't there a very good VPI that retails for 6k with arm?
I'd buy something like that used, if you can. Believe me, you can hear a
difference in turntables and for the price of entry, you should start with
something very good.
Cartridge, I think you could get by with a high level Grado or Soundsmith
MM or iron; I know that in the under 3K category, the Lyras are supposed
to be very good (I owned some of the higher end Lyras at one point, but I
think the newer ones are little less analytical)- however that would blow
your budget. So, if I had to trade off, i'd buy the better table/arm and a good
not state of the art, but not cheapy cartridge.
Phono stage, real cheap somebody on another forum was touting a
Hagerman Bugle which is like 149 dollars among the uber cheapies. I have
no idea what that sounds like. I know some people liked the older EAR but i
think it has to be modded to get the most out of it; those aren't terribly
expensive, but my impression is that it is a little euphonic without tweaking.
I know the Sutherland battery stages were considered 'pretty good' but I
can't speak from first hand experience. I will tell you that a really good
phono stage makes a world of difference- I went from a very highly
regarded one that was by no means cheap to a different one recently, and
it was a night and day difference in system performance. And it isn't just a
question of throwing money at it- that's sort of the point: even a big ticket
one didn't do as well as another big ticket one in my system. So, I guess
where I come out is spend the money on the table/arm, used, buy a good
but not extravagant cartridge, which you will upgrade later, and let's hear
from others on good phono stages that can be found used. I know some
folks here like the Herron, the Zestos is too new to find cheaply. I also think
some folks liked the Fosgate, but i think that one, used, is still a little too
new to find at bargain basement prices. Not a lot of help, but a start....
Oh, and as Les_ Creative pointed out, you're gonna need a vinyl cleaning
machine sooner than later to listen to the records properly. Just buy a VPI
16.5 when you have an extra 600 bucks and don't worry about all the
better ones for now (but get some good fluids).