A common reality check on most audiophiles is that their habit has made retirement a more distant reality. Often I find tax time a prime time to benefit from this phenomenon. The tweaks are like a drug addiction a habit out of control. Lets get real, explain using physics how a solid state amp is going to sound different on a stand or floor, that is, enough to pass a double blind test. No offense to those who use syrupy terms like sound stage, lushness etc. I was once caught in that cat racing after its tail. Do your self and wallet a favor, invite a impartial neighbor or friend over to double blind test you. I bet that you will end up saving tons of cash by not buying things common sense would tell you not to. Good luck, life is a big picture, don't burn all your beans in one pot. |
A common reality check on most audiophiles is that their habit has made retirement a more distant reality. Often I find tax time a prime time to benefit from this phenomenon. The tweaks are like a drug addiction a habit out of control. Lets get real, explain using physics how a solid state amp is going to sound different on a stand or floor, that is, enough to pass a double blind test. No offense to those who use syrupy terms like sound stage, lushness etc. I was once caught in that cat racing after its tail. Do your self and wallet a favor, invite a impartial neighbor or friend over to double blind test you. I bet that you will end up saving tons of cash by not buying things common sense would tell you not to. Good luck, life is a big picture, don't burn all your beans in one pot. |
Just a quick follow up, Ejlif must have misunderstood me. I said have a neighbor switch stands for amp around or no stand at all with you not looking and see if you can tell the difference. We call hear what we want to hear and that can be a very costly mistake in many ways. |
I enjoy Stereophile Magazine myself, Garfish. Emotion seems to have taken on two different definitions, however, in this case. Somewhat like the difference between a soccer mob upset because their team is in jepordy of losing a game and rather than seeing how is the best team that day they attach the opposing team. That really does not decide anything except that the crowd is not mature. Musical emotion should carry you into another world but not discussions about silicon and machine screws. |
My PhD work is in the field of prob testing. I suggest anyone that is willing to be humilated try a double blind test. A wordy explanation does nothing but convince the less sophisticated that you must be right since you devoted such good grammer and time to your explanation. I have sent every audiophile home with their tail between their legs on things they think they hear. I find this fun helping people save money for retirement and time with their family. Good luck but lets get back to reality. |
Albertporter send me an e-mail and we can discuss a double blind test. Please understand I don't have an axe to grind except to blow the smoke from the obvious nonsense. I have been involved with hi-end audio for 3 decades. My equipment I listen to and when I visit others starts in the Levinson, Krell, Audio Research, Magnan etc league. I don't want to get emotional (defensive) about this so I won't add more to that. I always love the double blind test with those who scream out, insist that they are right. We'll see. It is most important in all things in life to be honest to ones self and others. Double blind testing does that. |
I am not going to respond to emotional insistence of being correct with folks who essentially say "I know its good when I hear it". What is being said here? I'm right, you're wrong" Quite a strong debate! Ah-ummm |
I also thought that long term listening was the trick. But that is what it is "a trick". Listen long enough and you can hear what you want. My point behind the "tail between the legs" is about setting priorities based on logic and what is obvious and about saving income for the times when the stock market is not going through the roof (nothing more, I have seen to many audiophiles go belly up financially not to care about this addiction). Many people in this country are on the consumerism binge and have to spend to be happy. Reflect on this: When you hear a truely great, engineered recording it is drop dead obvious in the first few minutes or seconds that it is, or substantially moving the position of your speakers. These are immediate, double blind 100% positive hits most of the time. But these other tweaks are largely a sad commentary on how emotion can make a audiophile become a sucker. Years ago I avoided the "sucker" trap and am much richer for it and can give to others rather than indulge myself because times are good in the very short term. Besides I think software, speakers, and room make the biggest differences in your listening pleasure save one: Your hearing! Retire early and experience life and not nickle and time your future to death. This is no small matter, next tax season watch for the number of people who must sell quick. Or do a search under the word "baby" and you will see many people throughout the year who let their budgets get out of wack even when a baby was due and must sell at a huge loss. If you must listen for weeks to decide I would hate to see how other decisions are made? Most of all, let me assure I want to help people make common sense of their purchases and better use of their finances after seeing many get into serious financial trouble. No amount of cash is enough when you have a life style that burns it up faster than you can save for the future. Good luck in all things and take care! |
This has become something of a cult posting. Kind of amusing actually, thanks for the intense interest. I would agree with most of the comments above in the past. I think you can convince yourself of a "better" sound. Heck, witness Stereophile doing it: Conrad Johnson 11a going from a Class C to Class A (that was probably due to president of Conrad Johnson writing in), MSB Link DAC going from Class C to Class B, B&W Nautilus 805 going from Class A to Class B and so forth. The point being that there are no clear cut winners in many cases. Often I prefer one speaker over another depending on my mood for certain music and the qualities of a speaker. That synergy thing. Yet in the end I realise that there is that realization that it is better to not trick one's self into an never ending pursuit of components and focus on improving one's software collection. No where have I heard bigger differences, assuming a certain mimimum level of audio component quality (see an early response of mine), than in poor and well engineered recordings. Regarding, the emotional defensive reactions I will not indulge those folks. There has been some careful thought given by many here. But here are some responses to some of the more thoughtful. Double blind testing can tell what will work over the long term if you set the correct criteria and keep it standard. When tuning a piano or a violin there are standard procedures that enable someone to get the job done that day not in weeks of trial and error. In fact, the longer the trial period on subjective calibrations will actually result in increased errors from a reproducible perspective. Hence you are actually testing small incremental changes in your perception, each one convincing you that the previous perception was invalid and the new one is correct. But the pathway is not linear since what you listen for one day is not the same the next and so forth. It is more like a road network with a series of dead ends, you are constantly traveling but never really getting any where. At one of those deadends, perceived sonic bliss, you take out your perceptual map only to find that you not where you want to be so get on the road again and travel to a place you will not likely reach by using these nonstandard, purely subjective measures over protracted periods of time. Pull in the dead end, stay a while, back out, go a different direction so on and so forth. |
Heh? Redkiwi, While the light does not shine? A strong intellectual argument does not wwf approaches to being heard. Be calm....state your reproducible case. I will respond then. |
Here are some suggestions: Step 1 of the reproducible criteria would be to see how individual pulse tones throughout the freq spec and pink and white noise are affected by change in system from various positions in listening room. Low freq pulse tones below 60 hz at relatively loud to check for inference with vibrations. (Dunlevy states that accuracy can be easily measured and that a lot of this critical listening for extended periods does exactly what I say it does. Of course Dunlevy uses wave form analysis to do this rather than just relying on the human ear). Step 2: use a common set of reference software LP/CD/SACD etc to evaluate what you consider to be the dominate types of music you listen to and what elements of musicality you find the most desirable. It is important that you are made unaware of when the system change has been made (changes made while you are out of the room. You listen blind folded with lights out.) As important to all of this is get a hearing test and find out where you are at. I have long suggested that Stereophile post the hearing tests of its reviewers (e.g., if they are 20 db down in a critical areas of the freq spectrum they should state this. Think about how this could weigh you thoughts on some ones evaluation. Anyone can insist they are hearing or not hearing things but this would help put a quantitative light on the subject and likely help you take some critiques with a grain of salt. Hint: Check the age of the reviewers. This is not to say you can not get musical enjoyment with dimenished hearing but that your perspection will change as your hearing fades and fades away. We should know this information!!) |
I enjoy Stereophile Magazine myself, Garfish. Emotion seems to have taken on two different definitions, however, in this case. Somewhat like the difference between a soccer mob upset because their team is in jepordy of losing a game and rather than seeing who is the best team that day they attach the opposing team. That really does not decide anything except that the crowd is not mature. Musical emotion should carry you into another world but not discussions about silicon and machine screws. It seems to be a real sickness when opinions on record playing stuff makes one superior to another. Maybe we should have put Stereophile in charge of the cold war, we might have won a lot sooner. |
Just for the record I have no idea who Carl_eber is and even if I did is there any reason to respond in so insecure a fashion. How does acting lack an emotional reactionary help your case. Believe in your intellectual arguments not your emotional defences. I will not respond to emotional arguments. Stereophile has a vested interest in not believing in double blind tests, even though I don't know if they not believe in them as a group, because you can say anything (i.e., anything) and no one can challenge you. Kind of great job security. |
Just for the record I have no idea who Carl_eber is and even if I did is there any reason to respond in so insecure a fashion. How does acting like an emotional reactionary help your case. Believe in your intellectual arguments not your emotional defences. I will not respond to emotional one ups manship. Stereophile has a vested interest in not believing in double blind tests, even though I don't know if they not believe in them as a group, because you can say anything (i.e., anything) and no one can challenge you. Kind of great job security. |
Carl, what is your problem? |
There are pills for this you know? |
There are pills for this you know? |
Carl, I think what would help is if you voiced your opinions face to face. I suspect if you were standing in front of me your thoughts would be more toned down and thoughtful. Anyway, we can all appreciate your more reflective comments regarding your late night perspective (thanks) |
Send me a pic sometime of you doing this I need some for my wonders of the 3rd world collage. |
Send me a pic sometime of you doing this I need some for my wonders of the 3rd world collage. |
As long as you are in dream land, I am the Prince of Swedish Lexicon. |
You humor me (seriously, respond with more defensive, boyish, emotion with your next response (make it read like a grade school kid on a playground like the majority of other responses, in particular, throw in some of the CAPITALIZED out of control phrases). This is great stuff and is completely hilareous)). Go ahead and send the pic of you supporting in a mid-bench stroke a standard 45 pound bar with an additional 275 lbs of iron plates on it (this would be a reality check like my suggestions for making a more thoughtful review of audio equipment). Now, on to more sain discussions: With respect to audio, you seem to miss the whole point of my argument. The only thing you seem to say that might be reproducible in your argument is that you claim to have nearly flawless hearing. You rave on and on how that makes you the best judge of what makes one piece of equipment better than another. You made my case! Hearing tests are controlled, blind studies of pulse tones. Exactly the first part of my suggested pathway to being honest about what makes a difference in accurate, reproduction of music: "Step 1 of the reproducible criteria would be to see how individual pulse tones throughout the freq spec and pink and white noise are affected by change in system from various positions in listening room. Low freq pulse tones below 60 hz at relatively loud to check for inference with vibrations." I have very good hearing (in the upper 10 percent according to my 1999 hearing test). Which means your hearing could be better but chances are that it is not. But even if it isn't you can still evaluate what is meaningful for you but do it in a fashion that is reproducible or otherwise you will be traveling down a non-linear path that thinks what is good sound today is not tomorrow but becomes good sound the next day. This is because you never quantifiably know where you have been. |
How do you know (by the way the name is Niles)your hearing is better? Just because you like to hear your self talk. On another point, you never asked me if I can hear a signal sweap of CRT tube? Please send me the pic, Carly, of you benching standard olympic free weights exceeding 300 lbs. I find it very funny that you can not produce a simple pic of you doing something you insist you can do. Do this and I might believe your other braggings! Until then....well you know. |
I got all the information I need to formulate an opinion. Thanks for chatting so long with a person you don't give a flying fart about. Drop me a note if you are in my neighborhood, I wager a scientific evaluation of your perceiptive abilities to differentiate between the subtles of high end audio will reveal as weak a structure as your emotional under pinnings. Maybe a day in the gym with me will help. |
Very good! At this point, I don't know if I can take it anymore. You give me a side ache. Thanks, I have a very busy life and you bring a ray of sun shine (humor) coming my way. As if it matters, I can not bench 320 lbs (never could) but 275 lbs I can. Good luck and don't let anyone kick sand in your face. Seriously, you are a riot! |
Encore, encore, more, more intellectual pearls of insight, encore, encore, more, more. |
Come on, Carl, give it do him.....sock him with some of that teenage Testosterone of yours! |
PS: It is heard on the street that Bobby Knight will be putting on a "Shouting Makes Right and Other Forms of Insane Logic" Clinic next year if he loses his job at Indiana University. Maybe you could do an earlier audition as an assistant instructor. I thought this would be a quick way for you to make some extra cash. Heck, who knows,.... maybe they would leave Bobby Knight's clinic for one of your own. Maybe you should advertise early. Good luck! |
Maybe we could all learn how some of the insane things in this world can happen with things less meaningful than Gallaine amplifies on if you can track the process of this thread. Isolation on the web breeds a sort of internal, unchecked power in the individual to suppress and dominant rather think through a formulate a constructive criticism that helps both the writer and reader. |
