Amir and Blind Testing


Let me start by saying I like watching Amir from ASR, so please let’s not get harsh or the thread will be deleted. Many times, Amir has noted that when we’re inserting a new component in our system, our brains go into (to paraphrase) “analytical mode” and we start hearing imaginary improvements. He has reiterated this many times, saying that when he switched to an expensive cable he heard improvements, but when he switched back to the cheap one, he also heard improvements because the brain switches from “music enjoyment mode” to “analytical mode.” Following this logic, which I agree with, wouldn’t blind testing, or any A/B testing be compromised because our brains are always in analytical mode and therefore feeding us inaccurate data? Seems to me you need to relax for a few hours at least and listen to a variety of music before your brain can accurately assess whether something is an actual improvement.  Perhaps A/B testing is a strawman argument, because the human brain is not a spectrum analyzer.  We are too affected by our biases to come up with any valid data.  Maybe. 

chayro

Showing 5 responses by bruce19

It puzzles me why the debate about measurement vs. subjectivity sometimes gets so fierce. Why can't we have both? I certainly want both. I appreciate that what we can measure may not represent the sum total of our listening experience. But if properly done it represents an accurate, objective characterization of at least one dimension of a product. It is better than nothing.

I like to trust my senses but oh how they can lead me astray! As several of you have said already in reference to your selves; I know that my listening reflects my mood, my physical state and many other variables. I liken it to wine tasting, some pretty plain wines can taste pretty great in the right setting, with the right company and/or the right food and vice versa.

At some point the differences get large enough that quality can be discerned fairly consistently. But much of the audiophile pursuit is just pushing boundaries a few percent or less at a time. That is where the really big money gets spent and ironically that is where data is almost never presented.

Lets continue to push for as much data as possible along with the knowledge to connect the numbers to our sensations; but meanwhile we all will also have to keep listening as well as we can. I follow Amir and the folks at ASR and learn some things there, just like I do here. When there is overlap I usually get more interested.

@daveinpa  I like your post! Your category 3 is right on. It is fine to buy something just because it makes you feel better. What seems to generate the most angst in these discussions is when people buy things for Reason 3, while trying to convince themselves it is for Reason 1.  Then they go seeking confirmation from others on an audio forum.  If there are no measurements or the measurements tell a story they don't want to hear then they become anti measurement and seek confirmation in the opinions of others who agree with them. Wait a second, this isn't gong on just in audio, it's all over the place!

Anyway, nice analysis Dave!

@daveinpa  Nice choice! May I ask how long it took for the Pontus to arrive once ordered?

Denafrips is a good example of a generally well respected name in the reviewer world. The Pontus has not been reviewed on ASR but I looked and saw the Ares was and surprise surprise it measured well! Hope you enjoy it for many years!

What I take as Amir's main point seems to be lost among the personal attacks on him, most of which appear sadly mis-informed. What I hear him saying to the manufacturers of equipment which does poorly in his tests is "show us your data." Or conversely, "admit that you have no data." That's it. Simple. Then consumers can decide.

What we see from some of the worst offenders is a lot of technical sounding talk  which suggests a technical underpinning to their claims but zero data. Did they design their product with no measurements? Perhaps. Then tell us that.

I picture a cable maker for instance that soaks his wires in vinegar then declares they sound better to him. Well more power to you buddy! But if you want me to buy it you don't have to divulge your proprietary secret, just give me something more than techno mumble jumble. If indeed the improvement cannot be measured with current technology (a possibility I am willing to concede) and the manufacturer is not willing to foot the expense of well conducted, objectively fair listening tests to support their claim then  I guess it is a true "audiophile grade" product.  Does it makes things sound better? Depends on who is doing the listening and what they ate for breakfast and whether they tripped over the dog while leaving the house this morning, I guess.

@milpai 

"Ask your guru to show how he measures a person's emotions."

That is a little pejorative, don't you think?

Your other points are fine, but your religious references make me think you might be investing this discussion with more significance than it deserves. And no, Amir is not my savior and he is not yours either, he is just a guy testing audio equipment and sharing info and asking others to do the same.