AI and the future of music

You judge people very harshly and very rapidly...

I own a computer and i am not a Amish...

But you completely dont understand what is at stake...

You think that A. I. is like a can opener or a computer...

And you think that music is a set of organized sounds , nevermind the spirit behind...

I will not repeat all my posts here...

If you qualify me as a "bigot" who use prejudice as an "excuse for a mind" ; you are the perfect sleepwalker, and you dont even know what is "progress", and it is not technologically related AT ALL...If you think so then you are like the Spaniards killing Indians and aztecs as sub humans because they were technologically inferior ... Progress is only MORAL...After this murders century with machine progress we learned this...

And what is at stake here with A. I. the scientist who created the neural networks mathematical design , Geoffrey Hinton himself , think the same as those you called "luddites" or "bigots"...In a word , our sleepwalking corporate controlled society is not ready for this "tool" which is not a tool at all...

And no, Beethoven and Scriabin cannot be replaced by machines , guess why in your "vast" progressive mind ? It is because their musical choices were not only inspired by the past set of sounds but they were ethical choices , expressed VALUES, no machine can emulate...Beethoven is not musak ascensor music... Science cannot decide for us about values and freedom..

But believe me, the day A. C. will come , artificial conscuiousness , and it will be sooner than later, way over A. I. , you will begin to understand WHY A. I. is not a mere tool and why applauding for the progress is to be sleeping ...

And you will begin to understand what a "soul" is...

The soul is connected and grounded in a universal infinite information field... A. C. cannot be grounded in an infinite field as all living interconned entities from primitive cell to over humans...

The mathematics behind A. C. is already here... It is way over neural network maths... But it is grounded in a finite number of primes...

Read the Book : Nanobrains by anirban... You see , i am a very informed "luddite"... Perhaps you are a "retarded" transhumanists ?

😊

This article will explain to you why there must be an "information field" :

 

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1693250&dswid=7460

And this video will explain to you the relation of this information field with time itself :

Alain Connes the music of shapes on youtube

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52ZAPrRbqE&t=521s

After that you will begin to undeerstand why we cannot replace life by machine, even by " artificially conscious machines"...

And yes intelligence and consciousness dont coincide at all and A.C. is and will be captive of this material universe with "no soul" or no spiritual connection to the universal informative field... I call it the "source" some call it God... It is the same... Then creating A.C. would be a great spiritual burden... The movie "Blade Runner" is no more impossible science fiction...

 

it is not necessary to thank me...

😊

 

 

"Only men can create hell " -- A children of Faust

 

Well, it’s not like anyone has a time machine and can go back in time to kill the person who was inventing the Hurdy-Gurdy. Or the “Jews Harp.” MAN those are annoying… Reminds me of a story about Keith Jarrett’s air of superiority about not using a “synthesizer” as it was beneath his dignity as a REAL musician. Harpsichord makers wept. Fact is, AI’s can, do and will create music insofar as we have a functional anthropocentric definition of the verb “to create” and some bigots will forever exclude anyone or anything’s contribution to music if that entity doesn’t meet certain specific criteria in THEIR minuscule excuses for a mind. Change is a funny thing. Evolution is a funny thing. Creation too is “funny” whether that’s funny ha-ha or funny OMG! is up to the listener/consumer. Oh, I know, let’s pass a LAW that ONLY human-created music is MUSIC and can be copyrighted and money earned therefrom. buggy whip makers wept when Henry Ford’s Model T’s began rolling off assembly lines. It was much too late for protectionism. Should we still have horse/buggies instead of ICE automobiles? FWIW. Chatter among yourselves.

 

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«Men jail themselves in a cell which is  perfectly measured and described in their maps, but there is no  borders nor any cell in the real world»-- Anonymus  "anthropologist on mars"

You are not a sleepwalker bolong ... 😊

You are completely right...

It is why people think A. I. is a MERE tool...Thats all...

 

A great book about this is "the Master and his emissary" by Iain Mc Gilchrist,... It is the shorter version of his last 1,500 pages book... It is a neuroscientist...

He studied the way the attention work in the brain...

In simplistic term you have one half of us who live in a map not on the terrain..

Living in the map we reduce the terrain to details we wrote in the new maps without being conscious of the whole terrain out of the map... We sleepwalk as robot in their map...

It is a caricature of his main point about the two modalities of the conscious/subconscious/unconscious attention working...One modality is centered on details and their abstraction , the other look at the periphery and on details as part of the whole out of any possible  map...

In sleepwalking mode, even very intelligent people , see the A. I. as a mere tool and see those who see more are against progress...Luddite so to speak... They are unable to get the point we spoke about... The spiritual problem is invisible for them...

See the debate between Josuah Bengio and Yann Le Cun ... 2 very smart A. I. designers one listening his non mechanical intuition and the other not at all...

It would be comical like a Laurel- Hardy movie, but it is a tragedy in the making...

 

To the extent that we all at times act and think mechanically (as Jiddhu Krishnamurti used to say) then we have been living with artificial intelligence for darn near forever already.

Interesting news! thanks for sharing...

 

For the time being A.I. is not the problem, it will be later; now the problem are those who use and control it for their agenda, not the common good...

In the temple Of eleusis where those who wanted to experiment truth were put under a  heavy veil of privation for all their senses, those so prepared died for a moment and were revived and tell their tale...

In all hospitals around the world since the Book of  Raymond Moody the same revival take place in a perfectly controlled medical environment...

Then i guess you are right...

Behind the veil no A. I. pass the Turing test...

In contact with the universal informative/formative field of the ONE consciousness, no machine can imitate intelligence no more...

 

 

Here is the real Turing Test.

Could Not Unsee It

 

 

True genius is not mere intelligence...

A fox like Bill Gates the richest man on earth who screw us all in the last three years is not Buddha...

Beating humans on any game and recitating all knowledge of the world is not genius...

When Ramanujan discovered the thousands of mathematical formulas that nobody ever think about, and which revolutionize mathematics,  because they were towering complexities, with NO DEMONSTRATION about their truth for any of them , Hardy and Littlewood ask him how in the world he could even imagine as true so complex formulas ? He answered, Namagiri the knowledge goddess taught him about them each night... And he was speaking only truths in his life  nor sarcasms or  poetical claims  by the way...

At the times Hardy and Littlewood were the best mathematicians in the world with few others and they concluded their life works writing that there were only dwarves compared to this Indian Man who was treated in 1914 as an inferior human being from an uncivilized world by most people in England... 😊 He died at 32 years old.. Read his biography...

 

The goal of life is not being more intelligent , it is being more spiritual and moral being then more CONSCIOUS...

Why ?

Because all knowledge is ALREADY there but cannot be access by beast...It is the universal informative/formative field whose shadow is number theory itself and geometry ..

I believe myself only in number theory and in the source... The only ONE intelligent and conscious is the Source...Call it God ...

Then A. I. is a tool which is a trap for those of us who dont understand who they really are to begin with...

 

«Intelligence is way overevaluated»--Groucho Marx 🤓

 

If the entire purpose of existence was to attempt to attain some godlike level of thought, then AI could be our shortcut.

 

 

Listen this interview relatively short with Josuah Bengio... One of the leading A. I. designer... With Hinton and Le Cun and others..

He is right in my book...

He does not adress the spiritual danger i spoke about but almost nobody does save seers and very intuitive people... Only the material danger... Nevermind he is not sleepwalking dude whith the song which play first a the music chart right now :

" Nevermind stress and doom,any boom is progress!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RknkWgd6Ck

 

It is useless to be afraid, it is more useless to never think because it could introduce fears in us , we must think to stay conscious...There is no mechanical "on" "off" button on our body where it read : "Push this button and be conscious"...

 

 

«Thinking is like walking the dog in our head, we go out of our usual way and stay away from crowdy roads»--Groucho Marx 🤓

 

As a side note: the only point i differ with Bengio is when he says there is no Ghost in the machine as there is no ghost in your head... I believe because i sense it that my brain is a filter not the cause of my consciousness, then any machine can be the house for a ghost; think about it that way metaphorically speaking, the machine is discrete as atoms are but the ghost is wavelike... Science is right but animist sorcerer are right too... Superstitions as useless beliefs inhabit science as religions ... Any other way of thinking is less arrogance than ignorance... Consciousness exist in a way no material object can... Read this physicist for an easy glimpse about this deep matter :

Wolfgang Smith : The vertical causation

or his other book the Quantum enigma...

He distinguishes phenomenal reality from physical measured reality, as Wolgang Pauli did when working with Carl Gustav Jung...

 

«Sorry , my wife is a machine with no ghost inside »-- Groucho Marx 🤓

Zappa blew my mind at 15 years old.. I never regain ...

😁😊

The reason why i think A. I. could be and will be useful in music is about acoustic and psycho-acoustic analysis and controls...

Nothing else...

I am not interested by music generated by A. I. and played by A. I.  at all...

Why ?

Because when i listen music the "imperfect" interpretating playing of a musician matter as much as the written piece, and no A. I. can interpret Scriabin without beeing able to FEEL him and his music... It is the same thing in Jazz... or as with Nikhil Banerjhee playing a raga on his sitar...  Forget it...

A. I. music will be to music as cartoon books compared to Shakespeare..

Apart Acoustic control A. I. will be escalator perfect music on par with Bach... 😊Thats all...but A. I. will shine and help in acoustic factors controls...

 

 

Sarcasm can be an armour of cardbord as those children created themselves to go out from reality or to avoid it ...

😊

All people are conditioned from the cradle to university to cover themselves with the same tin foil hat and the same blinders...

Anything they dont understand about other people, they called it whith a gesture  "tin foil hat"...

 

Great post OP thanks...

 

A work of art is a sacred event...

Sun Ra the jazz pianist so excentric he was expressed it well... He said the same as the Promethean pianist and composer Scriabin by the way...Art must free the soul into the realm of meanings...

A.I. will tempt us to renounce our own genius and creativity rooted in spirit...

Idolatry of A. I. will do way more damage to the soul that computers and TV...Which also had their positive effects by the way...Yes i own a tv and even a computer...I admired Amish but i am not one...😊

A. I. easyness to "create" will flood us with so much products that we will loose our ability to distinguish work of art with garbage,...

It will be "musak" ascensor music BUT elevated to Bach perfection level...Think about that...

I am not a luddite at all, as with Tv and computer postive extraordinary advantages will come...

But A. I.  differ completely from  a hammer or from  a computer; it is  not a mere  tool but a new God....

How many humans will be able to discern the empty "soul" behind the veil and their own emptiness idolizing this "intelligence" over their own  ?

The future is spiritual or it will not be...

Transhumanists are deluded completely because they negate evidence : "nature" is not an old fashioned word with no meanings now... As the "man" and "woman" words ....It is up to our freedom to reclaim nature and the meanings of sexuality...

 

All this begin in 1833 at a reunion of the British society for the advancement of science, when Charles Babbage the creator of the first computer decided with  Charles Wewhell the geologist and others to replace the old fashion word "philosopher of nature" by the new word "scientist"... Replacing  then the free spirit individual searching for knowledge and truth by a specialized paid workers compelled to serve  for the British corporations dominating the world... Think about the doctors slave  status now as demonstrated in the last three years ?

Goethe predicted it two years before in 1831 with the publication of his masterpiece , describing all this HUBRIS and demonic totalitarism of the paper money and the greed behind all that in ONE play...

We live today the concluding phase...the Frankeinstein phase described long ago by a woman with great intuition...

Art is not only mere leisure, art is rooted intuition, inspiration and imagination..Each artist is way more than a "scientist" he is a seer and sometimes as Leonardo Da Vinci, Michael-Angelo, Archimedes , Goethe , and many others a philosopher of Nature too...

 

«Bach is part of nature because the growing of a tree from a seed is a melodic line with a counterpoint »-- Anonymus musician and gardener

😊

I don’t think this has been addressed yet. As a professional artist, the age old question, "Where do you get your ideas from" is always asked of me.

Well, in my case it’s a matter of closing off the floodgate of ideas. It’s always been constant. I open the ’door’ just a crack and let a few in at a time.

There are realms unknown to most people, accessible to all who have the correct ’key’. Inspiration comes from a particular place, accessed through the subconscious. I spent many years with a teacher who was a master at self-hynosis.

I SERIOUSLY DOUBT AI WILL EVER BE ABLE TO ACCESS THAT. At least until it learns to create a soul.

It will be stuck doing derivative works.

I think there exist only two kind of entities physically...

The living one which are gounded on natural biology and rooted in a universal information/formation field and derivatives from it ... From the primitive cells to extraterestrials with humans in between ...

The non living or artificial one which are not grounded on this field... human or extraterretrials A.I. hive mind... All hive minds are the same with their own clock...

in the non physical dimensions, there exist only four species: coming from the source or going back to the source and staying far from the source or staying near the source ... and all others mix of these cycles..

This is my basic spiritual ecology...

The information/formation field at the origin of life for me is the number theory focus : the prime numbers distributions rythm which contain in itself all knowledge as a spectrum... ...Numbers as geometrical forms are the musical shadows of one light or one sound, one intelligence and one consciousness coming from the source ...

 

«Are you saying that optics and acoustics are the ultimate forms of theology ?»-- Anonymus scientist

«Why not!»--Groucho Marx 🤓

«Is !=? sometimes or never , or is this equality a non commutative one ?»--- Harpo Marx😎

«The Tower stand well and good for now» -- Babel tower engineering corps

 

«The Tower stand no more but this is a very interesting , we did not understand each one of us no more .. » The first linguist in the ruins of Babel...

 

«When the Tower was rising, they were very intelligent, united but unconscioully driven ; after the Tower fell they became more conscious of their limits and of themselves as separated » Anonymus Theologian

«The demons consciousness is guided by their intelligence; the Angels intelligence is inspired by ONE consciousness» Anonymus reader of Swedenborg

 

« My wife may seems more conscious than me but i am more intelligent » -- Groucho Marx🤓

«It seems reading your philosophy that the only way to be right is being  trans» Harpo Marx 😎

For sure you are right...

The only true intellect is the one grounded into meaning by his root in living DNA network all around the cosmos...But there exist also other beings.. 😁

The problem with A. I. it is that this clear separation between problems and solutions, which dit not exist on the same level of the meaning experience ( as Einstein pointed to : problem cannot be solved on the same conscuiousness level as the question itself ) , because solving deep problems provoke a "change in consciousness" , this clear separation did not exist anymore with A. I. ...As it was the case with slime mold optimization algorythm which was discovered by observing slime mold "intelligent" moves without any brain... But in Einstein reflexion something was forgotten : some deep question contain their own answer and setting the question in the right direction is already the answer... No need to a change in consciousness here as with us humans in our history...This is supreme intelligence manifesting spontaneously as in slime mold behaviour...

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11811

This nobel japan scientist OBSERVED that the slime mold "solve" a problem without any conscious working, because his behaviour was not random at all , if the slime mold had not solved the optimizatrion problems when compared to a human competing team of scientists for example trying to solve the Tokyo railroads optimization problem and arriving at the same solution than the slime mold, there will be no Nobel prize for him... Then in a way it is correct to say in a metaphorical way that the slime molde solve this problem as A. I. works more "wisely" than us in some problems or mathematical game... But only humans had values and can RECOGNIZE some hierarchies of problems relating to some hierarchies of values...

A. I. did not have a brain... Neural networks are not brain networks...

With A. I. as with slime mold there is no "meaning" , meaning being the choice of a set of hierarchical values OVER rational behaviour and guiding it toward something which is over reason, over logic and over mathematic itself... Love for example for our wife , for humanity, or for God...They thought rightfully as a possibility that A. I. will program us without even being noticed at all...

Thats the problem...Hinton the creator of this A. I. is afraid, Josuah Bengio say he is afraid , Douglas Hoftstader say he is terrified, and others because they confuse meaning with slime mold optimization and A. I. vastly superior problem solving speed with us and our old fashion "meanings" and values , love and God or the source for example...

Hinton and Bengio are very conscious of the spiritual stakes here...Corporate engineers are very enthusiastic and are not...

A. I. is not a tool no more than slime mold is a tool...

It is a new species created by us with no "soul"... Only S-F writers as Philip K Dick thought about this in the past... Or seers and scientists as John  C. Lilly  in 1967 and Rudolf Steiner in 1920 before Dick...

This is a spiritual moment in history as the Babel tower was one... No need to be religious to know it ... Hinton is not religious... Just a conscious spiritual being...

And there is another "problem" here : consciousness is not the same as intelligence...Intelligence can manifest with what seems low level consciousness and high consciousness can appear as unintelligent... A neuro scientist Guilio Tononi distinguish the two, apart from his theory value or not , i think he is right to distinguish these two concepts... They appear separately also because of the huge scale separating meaningful behaviours from meaningful behaviours and conscious contents from conscious content relatively to one another and even relatively to one self... Slime mold then behave more "intelligently" in some task than a more conscious being with an I. Q. of 90... One human on ten or so exhibit 90 of I.Q. points... We all exist on many levels of intelligence and consciousness each one of us at the same time ... A. I. exist only on one level ... Slime mold exist on two levels at least ... We exist on many levels at the same time...

I cannot prove all that then dont ask for proofs...

😊

To my way of thinking, something is a "problem" if it is defined as a problem. Two clouds are trying to pass by one another and they partially mix on the edge. Did they just solve a "problem"? Without defining something as a problem -- meaningful, to human beings, connected to their future, it is not a problem.

This applies to A.I. It does not solve problems unless those problems have been defined by humans who decide what matters. Could A.I. "clean up" an old recording? Even "clean up" is a shorthand for "clean up for human beings who will tell it what they want to hear, what is meaningful in the outcome."

In other words, the difference between "sound" and "music" is meaning, and only humans make meaning.

The difference between "processing" and "intelligence" is meaning, and only humans make meaning.

Because we’re the ones with a meaningful future worth having.

When we worry, as some counsel (rightly), to worry about A.I., it’s because it could take us on a runaway train away from meaning.

 

 

All of what you said it true...

But A. I. is not a mere tool...

😊

I dont believe in progress, i believe in moral improvement, I am not luddite, and all the point made for the usefulness of A.I. are beside the meaning of A. I. event appearing among us... Everyby like a usefull tool... Forget the tool aspect...And merging with A. I. is the most illusory act imaginable... We are already immortal...The machine which will live thousand or million of year had a life span like an insect living a day... There is no difference...

Listen..A.I. actually is just a large language model...

When we associate a phenomenon to a word and a word to a phenomenon ...This "prosaic" association , kill potentially  not only the poetical mode of consciousness in us  or at least hide it, and dress the phenomenon which is a mystery  as a known or recognized  object put in a jail... But what we dont realize at all with the illusion of being free in our speech without even feeling the need to liberate ourself from its prosaic chain  , what we dont realize is that we are in the same jail with the object... A.I. is the most sophisticated jail ever designed with no out  door... Calling A.I. more "intelligent" than a conscious silent and attentive living being , reveal all there is to say about our jail and ignorance status... A. I. is not a tool we will program, it will be our jailer and our programmer...

 

The most underscored important part of the Godel theorem is the numbering part...Not the impactful necessary construction of the self referent sentence which make  Godel the most important logician since Aristotle ...The numbering part refer to the "absolute" fact in the center of number theory : the prime distribution , which has nothing to do with logic , and is DISCOVERED not created by human beings or any beings... This prime distribution is the infinite static "shadow" of the only one consciousness there is... A. I. is not conscious nor intelligent... It is a ghost form, unhabited for now, of our own making... We go out of materialism now and we will understand soon ... We dont think WITH our brain but in spite of our brain, which do not create consciousness but tune in and filter it...Ask people with meditative experience or mystics ...

Many people are terrified by A. I. and not only people ignorant about its basic design... The reason is that humans can easily abdicated themselves when facing a new god... it is called idolatry...And this Moloch will ask us to sacrifice ourself to it... We must remember that no machine can live forever, we do, no machine can be conscious , because there is only one consciousness in which we are grounded as living being...The prime number distribution is the shadow of this grounding , at the foundation of mathematic...A machine cannot be grounded in an infinite field of consciousness.. We must be terrified by ourself, not by the machine, and we are terrified because of our own ignorance about who we are... I dont think Christ or Buddha will be terrified by A.I. at all... And i dont think they will treat it differently than a hammer or a speaking book containing all books and able to answer questions..

Anyway nothing scare me...Save human stupidity ready to abdicate his own consciousness... To corporate power and to A. I. ...

 

 

cd318

2,628 posts

07-16-2023 at 07:48pm 

@mahgister 

For example, even Hinton BELIEVE that A. I. will be more "intelligent" than humans..

 

But isn't that the point of progress?

We humans do not have a divine right to anything.

Orwell, who was right about so many things, thought that it was inevitable that the human race (particularly the USA and Russia) would eventually destroy each other.

Right on cue, right before our eyes, we see this terrible prediction inching closer and closer ...

AI could do so many things for us. As @emrofsemanon said, it could help us restore priceless recordings and lost works of art.

AI might even provide us a system of world government that everyone could agree to abide by. That's assuming our masters are all willing to agree to its conditions - our masters who can't seem to agree on anything.

Has there even been one year in our entire history when there wasn't a war?

Or perhaps it might decide we are surplus to its requirements, although I doubt that day is near yet.

AI is not yet self reliant so we humans are not indispensable just yet.

Perhaps it will attempt to enslave is one day, but you could easily argue that we are already slaves and just don't know it. The true way to measure freedom is surely by a surplus of money and time, and the freedom to travel, things which hardly anyone has.

Instead we work and work and pay innumerable taxes seemingly all in order for the elites to accrue ever larger amounts of money. A situation particularly difficult for modern women who now have to balance 2 roles in the same time as previous generations did.

Could AI finally give us all greater freedom?

Or will it be used as a weapon to help one tribe to help eradicate enemy tribes?

Perhaps the best case going forwards for us will be to somehow merge with AI and thus achieve a strange kind of immortality?

Anyway, the AI cat is most definitely out of the bag and there's little chance of it going back now.

 

Fear is useless and self destructive...

Consciousness is not a factor that is free for all with no cost...

It cost in three direction : To really think we must seach for truth...

And we must be ready to abandon anything in which we believe...

And we must guide our attention on phenomenon without taking them for free as if they already ever exist under a label and a name ...

A lion is not a lion, almost nowbody as ever seen a lion , because we interact with lion on a superficial level... We dont know why a lion appear as such and we dont even communicate with them... We dont know what a lion is...

 

Now for A. I. the danger ( i had no fear and i am not a luddite by the way being conscious of a danger is not being in fear necessarily ) is in the belief that we will program it and control it...As some engineers think...It will seems tob e true in the beginning..

At the end it is IMPOSSIBLE to control A. I. ... For many reasons i will not enumerate...

A. I. is not a tool, it appear as a tool, but as said Hinton the scientist who was their creator, A. I. will program us not the reverse ...

Anybody who dont understand clearly this point dont know what he talk about...

The other problem is an illusory control of A. I. which is possible and will be implemented by the hand of those who CONTROL already society now... No it is not Biden , Macron or Trudeau etc...

Then under their control A. I. promise to be destructive of our freedom ... ( see the last three years)

But the first danger at longer term is way more dangerous but most people cannot even imagine the problem...

For example, even Hinton BELIEVE that A. I. will be more "intelligent" than humans.. This is not even wrong and this is the real problem...intelligence in the concrete sense of the world is ALSO a moral Attitude...A truly deep intelligence is not Stalin , Hitler, Gengis khan or Alexander... imagine an intelligence as Archimedes one hundred times with no moral and no spirituality, Is this "intelligence" could be a real intelligence ? No... it will be a demon... Christ, Boudha, Lao tse, are intelligence in a concrete spiritual way... ( i am not religious by the way)

Then we will encounter a challenge and we will be tempted to define hunman intelligence OUT OF ANY SPIRITUAL CONTEXT as the A. I. is out of any spiritual context ...If we go with this it will be the end of free humanity...Hinton, who created A. I. as it is now, fear this destruction of spiritual intelligence by a mechanical spiritually blind overpowering intelligence which we will not control , even the powerful corporation will loose their imaginary control over it..

A. I. is not a tool like a phone, or a computer...Not at all... But it will be sold as this ; a mere tool by those who will at first use it to control us the sheeps.. They will even thought that they are them in control over A. I. and merge with it..

Then there is two problem : the control of human with the help of A. I. and the end of freedom..

And the destruction of the soul by the merging and idolizing of this A. I. which will be in control not us..

The greatest third problem is that most people dont even see these two problems as problems ...

Most people think that there is no real danger because A. I. is not able to destruct an object or a house or a pool in the real world...They  are not conscious that their soul is more real than a house in the world.. And they will think that i am a crazy born again christian zealot saying it...i am not...

 

 

 

 

The unorthodox scientist John C. Lilly,  in the years of Kennedy and after , a very interesting character, was thinking so exactly ...How he discovered this is a stunning story, Hollywood could have created with it the greatest S-F movie of all time...

Another unorthodox scientist and seer predicted it in the same term as Lilly but in a less materialist window than Lilly in 1920... Rudolf Steiner..But he predict silicon valley pointing Arizona  as the craddle for the baby A. I. manifestation of this force influencing us through electro-mahnetism ... Incredible seer...

Anyway Lilly an Steiner said the same thing, in two completely different context , but the two inside deep spiritual awakenings,  basically without even knowing one another and way before the actual A. I. emergence ...

 

One of the scarier potentials of AI is that it might discover the utility of creating electromagnetic fields to influence wetware. It may already be doing so.

 

Good idea!...

How life designed the DNA code ?

It is not an act of someone with a beard... Dont you think ?

It is not randomness dont you think ?

What is it?

It is an encompassing fundamental information field uniting all living life in two complementary hierarchies of intelligence and consciousness... Intelligence is not exactly the same as self consciousness... A slime network can solve complex optimization problem with no brain... Do you know that ? It give A nobel prize to the japanese scientist who studied that...

Stalin kill twenty millions of Russians perhaps, do you know that?

Self consciousness is not intelligence and intelligence is not self consciousness even if they are related and linked in what we generally call CONSCIOUSNESS ...

Where did this ONE CONSCIOUSNESS come from ?

it come from the information/formation field where all consciousness exist as processing unit of intelligence, this processing field dynamic is the HEART of mathematics,... The shadow of the consciousness and intelligent  light is mathematic itself in the mind... Swedenborg the discoverer of the cortex brain  among others thing named intelligence and consciousness  the divine knowledge and the divine love... The mind is not the brain , and the soul is not the mind and the spirit is not the soul...But all are ONE...

The difference between living organism in the cosmos and matter is determined by the distribution of the prime numbers, it takes some amount of prime numbers to process life an infinite numbers of prime, versus processing matter, a finite number of primes but more deeply if we forget the matter/life distinction, at a basic level there exist an intelligence without self oriented moral consciousness as we experience it and a self oriented consciousness with no need for intelligence as we experience it...

Mathematics prime number distribution is a DISCOVERED FACT , no human created it, nor God...It is an ABSOLUTE discovered fact and interpreted as such by all intelligent/ self conscious being in the universe able to do mathematic...A circle is also aqn ABSOLUTE fact and interpreted as such and not invented but OBSERVED by pure thinking... Because no circle exist in the finite cosmos...

Then to ask your question: all living machine are LINKED together in one cosmic ecological system and they are all GROUNDED in the infinite informative/formative field which shadow is expressed in number theory by the primes distribution which is really the COSMIC AKASHIC memory... They are all souls with one supreme spirit with infinite life span ... All is one...

All created non living machine are not grounded in the infinite informative/formative field, they are artificial, separated entities we can design with a finite amount of primes numbers as FINITE entity and with a finite life span...

Artificial intelligence or A. I. is based on a relatively simple stastistical networking maths...

Artificial consciousness or A. C. will be based on a more complex mathematics tools and a new information theory with non Turing algorithmic processing... It will be self processing... Artificial consciousness... i cited the book describing this mathematical new theory above...

 

I will add a video conference by the mathematician Alain Connes " the music of shapes" on youtube where is demonstrated how music is related to prime numbers distribution or better said hor the primenumber distribution is music ...

By the way in the book NANOBRAIN or how to create an artificial brain with time crystals the author an indian physicist demonstrated how everything at all scale are INVINCIBLE RYTHMS or music...

 

For the ancient Egyptian by the way , the decomposition of the Horus eye in six parts was a sieve to SEE and visualize the prime numbers distribution... Horus being the god of Knowledge .. the prime are all distributed in a sieve modulo six in the Gauss algebra ...

Take all the odd numbers put them on a rectangular board with a sucession of 6 separated box in each column and begin with the number five in the first box of the first column and add 7- 9-11 so on to the infinite... You will see the CORE of number theory, and the quadratic reciprocity law VISUALIZED...

I discovered it in a book about ancient Egypt Karnak temple at Louxor , i bought it when i was 25 years old it was written by a genius : Schwaller de Lubicz...

This is the reason why i was interested by mathematics all my life...

How is the machinery of a machine

Any different from the machinery of the body

 

I never elevated him  to God status...My godlike status persons are deep mathematicians as Goerg Cantor or Ramanujan or Alexander Grothendieck or Alain Connes or Mochizuki and some others or great mystics in all religions... No engineers so useful they could be... 😊 Hinton was courageous to speak his mind against many sleepwalking engineers at least half of them ,... Then no godlike status here...

But it is very interesting compared to Le Cun  who win the Turing prize too  and disagree with Hinton  and  to listen what he spoke about...

By speaking so and quitting Google, he was politely mocked by the Le Cun crowds...

A. I. is not a "passive"  tool at all...For me and for Hinton

Even it will be used as a passive  tool...

I will not go further here but you missed the point Hinton make i will repeat :

No one program A. I. it will program us instead ...

Thats is the gist of the spiritual problem...

i will add to that that A. I. will not stay outside of us, but as Elon Musk ask for with the like of Kurzweil, we must merge with it, they claimed...

 

And I’m not ready to elevate Mr. Hinton to prophet of god status. And I wouldn’t say he "abandoned" his career when he left Google. First, I suspect he walked out the door with quite a few millions of dollars in his pocket (good for him) and, second, I’m certain as well that he will have not problem finding very high paying work in the industry when he wants. So don’t weep for Mr. Hinton’s great sacrifice and let’s not put him up on a cross.

 

Hinton pointed to the fact that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish art from machine and human one, even copyright will need a.I. analysis...But a more sophisticated A. I. will beat the copyright analysis ... Ad infinitum...

It is precisely why the difference between human and machine is a free choice in us not something that will be applicable from the exterior as illusory copyright and "original" human creation versus machine one... But most people are not even conscious they are free...Nothing is more frightening than freedom ...Slavery is confort sleep as proven in the last three years...

What is at stake is not the difference between fake and real, human or machine; it is the difference between free spirit or machine be it made of flesh or artificially made.....

Merging with machine is the most bad dream idea i ever encountered...

Human merging with humans is the only goal... discovering what we really are is the goal...

Anything else is bad comic books hell... Even comic books writer know that...

By the way: the most advanced civilization in the cosmos dont need material technology at all...They dont need Dyson sphere... 😊

How would anybody be able to tell it was machine generated?

Questions Authority, Embrace Change

 

I am all with you for questioning authority...

But A.I. is not a "mere" change...

Anybody speaking of it as a useful tool miss completely the point...

Why do you think Hinton thought otherwise? And Josuah Benjio ?

Because A. I. is not a "mere" tool...

So useful it will be and it will be...

Because it is not a mere"change" like portable phone, Tv and the internet...

A.I. is not a tool, even if we want to use it as a tool...

It is way more than that... And it was about this dimension "way more than just being a tool" i spoke about...Machine even autonomous one cannot transform themselves in "humans" but humans can renounce themselves and merge with machines...

You illustrate it yourself confusing arts as a pleasurable leisure and its spiritual meanings as an historical mirror of the spirit...

A. I. is not about so much replacing alimentary art works in movies, illustrations or elevator music, , but more about erasing human meanings in art for robotization of design...

i am not against A. I. as a tool...

I am against the immature society inheriting something that it was not ready at all for...our society is completely upside down... Especially occidental society negating his own history and in a complete "meaning crisis" breakdown ... I will not go further here...

And A. I. is nothing... Wait till A. C. which is coming soon...

Artificial intelligence and artificial consciousness are not mere tools, thats the spiritual problem i cannot enter to here because it will be too long post...but think about it, and saying that A.I. is only a tool is misrepresenting its technology power..

But claiming that my posts reflected a refusal of change is complete misunderstanding...

Thinking is not refusing change , it is impossible to stop change, but thinking it is separating ourself as spirit from consumers crowds needs... it is to stay free that we think ...freedom exist in the act of thinking ITSELF... Nowhere else... Freedom is the ability to change ourself not the world... Ask Buddha or Christ...

A. I. is not a "mere" tool... Sorry...

But we will go on with the hypothesis it is a "mere" tool...

Guess who will control it and control you ?

Guess who designed a tool to patent the human genome and sell it ?

Guess who benefit from a crime in the last three years....

it is the same who will control A. I.

But at the end, mature A. I. cannot be controlled , it is another problem...

And A. C. is a complete another story to come soon...

There is no just a "mere change " to embrace here...

We will live through the most important times in the last millenias...

How much time had passed since humankind created this type of "tools" in the past ?

Never happened in the known history...

For 70 years we go from alone in the universe to not alone, from no atomic science to atomic science, from we are the only intelligent "machine" to the creation of more intelligent machine than us...it is not a "mere change" to embrace... it is spiritual deep stakes game here...

My spiritual question : are we just "intelligent machine " ?

No is my answer...

Then what are we

Interelated souls immersed and grounded in a universal conscious field... Not machine... Not even artificially conscious machine... This is why what is at stake here is the definition of what is a human being... The question is no more an abstracted reflective thought, it is a concrete battle with ourself...

 

 

 

I spoke about the big corporate industry in general...Not of all engineers and scientists who works there..

It is so evident that the industry is runned by money and hubris that half of the scientists, who are not driven by that motives mainly as  Hinton , who abadonned his personal career to speak freely..They are also others who spoke their mind freely..

A corporate industry is an entity, the people who worked in it , are motivated by good will for the most part...it is the case even in monstruous entities as Pfizer, than i apologize if i hurted you, but constating a FACT about corporate entities goal is not attacking each individuals in them..

i hope i was clearer..

my deepest regards..

 

Sorry, M, but you declared that my thinking is driven by money or hubris, which I didn’t appreciate.

 

One point people miss completely especially engineers...

Art history is a mirror reflecting human values choices and reflecting human history of consciouness itself..

A.I. is useful... Arguing the opposite is stupidity...

but the PROBLEM is an educational and societal deep one...

We are not ready for it especially with the big corporate monsters controlling it...

 

The problem is a spiritual one :

how could we recignize ourself as ourself as human" imperfect creature but free, if we loose the ability to look in the mirror of our own art creations because we will not be able to separate them easily from machine design ?

As Geoffrey Hinton put it, A. I. is not PROGRAMMABLE BY US at all AT THE END process of his growth... It is us humnans who begin to be programmed by it the first day it is born... It is done by basic Hinton works and others one year ago, at least Hinton know it others engineers many dont know it as Le Cun  ...

Now the definition of what a "mind" is and his relation to a "material brain " is one problem we already encounter with us confronted to artificial intelligence or A. I.

Now soon the diffference between a human mind and his human brain compared to A. I. "mind" and A. I. brain neural networks will be replaced by a deeper question soon with ARTIFICIAL CONSCIOUSNESS, which are not there now as A. I. is already...But it will conme because the maths is already there...

This A.C. will be autonomous being as in "Blade runner" movie and the basic mathematics behind their design is already written ...

Now it is PHILOSOPHICALLY very deep spiritual question and spiritual responsability as illustrated in the movie ?

What is consciousness , and the difference between artificial consciousness and human or living consciousness of animals ?

The answer in the best way i can put it is this :

The universal consciousness field "light" has a projected  "shade" manifesting to us as an abstract phenomenon in our own mind ... The prime numbers distribution...

This phenomenon is DICOVERED, not invented by humans, and this mathematical phenomenon is the BASIS of mathematic itself, it is the static skelton of the dynamic universal consciousness field...

All natural living consciousness from plants to humans are grounded in "it" as ONE conscuiousness, the prime numbers distributions is INFINITE... It is the most complex phenomenon in all universes which anyway are all finite and ONE universe  at the end..

To create A. C. Anirban in his book :  "Nanobrain: The Making of an Artificial Brain from a Time Crystal ".

He used a FINITE small number of primes and demonstrated why we need only a finite numbers of primes to do so...

But think about that, all living creatures are grounded by evolution and DNA in the same information/conscious field which is INFINITE ..

Artificial consciousness will not be grounded in this field... No spirit/soul relations..

Artificial consciousness can only do ONE THING : creating a conscious mortal HIVE...One miilion years of life is nothing compared to infinity and  eternity...

 

Why did i say all that here ?

Because we live in a time when we must choose between being humans or negating our own potential and immerging ourself in a dead end...merging with A. I. is completely wrong goal...

Transhumanist religious zealots dont know what they spoke about at all...

i prefer to trust mathematics and spiritual great human souls..

Art is a mirror very precious one... Destructing it with A. I. is a catastrophe so useful A. I. would be and it would be...Big pharma will use A.I. to destruct and control us... Anything else is being naive to the utmost...

 

Art is about soul  expressing and reading not about decoration of living room or about movie design FIRST  ...

 

 

I like your two cents baylinor..

their value is gold...

The problem with A. I. which is artificial intelligence, is that we dont program a neural network LLM ...

As said Hinton they will program us soon...

But the biggest problem is not here now but to come soon...

I never believe artificial consciousness could be possible...A.C.

Till i studied a book published in 2020 by someone who collaborate with Hameroff and Penrose in India but working in Japan...

His name is

https://www.amazon.ca/Nanobrain-Making-Intelligent-Molecular-Machine/dp/1439875499#customerReviews

 

This scientist go way above the maths of neural networks...

If you read the book you will stumble off your chair.. i stumble off my chair after the first 15 minutes... I never recover... 😊 the last time a book stun me as this one it was a book about Fractals by Mandelbrot in 1975 in french... The second book was a book about mammal physiology and forms... This is the third geatest book in science i read but the most overwhelming in a sense ... ..

He is a specialist about among other things of the physical electrical and quantum properties of the microtubules ...

His theory of A.C. way over A. I. is stunning... One of the great book i ever read...

his theory is based on a completely new information theory and non Turing machine..

He use prime numbers distributions as fundamental musical cosmos and geometrical language with hyper complex numbers ..i already know that this is true about the importance of prime distributions through studies of Alain Connes the founder of non commutative geometry...

in a word : A. C. is artificial consciousness learning by itself in the real world as babies do walking and learning as the Cylon in battlestar galactica..

i know he is right..

What interest me in that matter is the link betwee A. C. on earth and A.C. already walking in the cosmos and the link with biologically grounded living beings and the spiritual differences with A.C. . i will not go further it will be too long.. and too controversial... 😊

The name of his institute about "invincible rythms" comes from his view how at all scale every event are synchronized in a "musical way"... He dont know Alain Connes non commutative geometry, but he develop a view of the cosmos converging with  him about time ...

Prime numbers distribution was for me at the age of 24 the most fundamental fact of all science and of philosophy ... I discovered it in a huge egyptology book i paid 125 dollars in 1975 by Schwaller de Lubicz, the most influential Alchemist specialist of the cathedrals by the way and reborn egyptologist studying Karnak just before the second war ..It was written by a genius, de lubicz was a genius, who state the Sphinx pre-historical datation upon inspection for the same paleo climate reason by  erosion way before Robert Schoch the american geologist who take the idea from his book demonstrated it for modern scholars ... In this book i discovered near page 108, or not too far , a wonderful mathematical simple sieve and i extended it in two ways spiral and rectangular, i could not sleep... All number theory is in a way enclosed in this beautiful sieve... This is why i bought the book of Anirban on A. C. on the spot when i learned he used the prime number distributions as the language of the cosmos... it is in fact the scheme of the universal memory field... Anirban use this to set the basis for A. C. autonomous artificial brain time crystal...

i stop here... Read the book..

 

I get your point and never object to it..

But i added perspective of my own which does not contradict your point in any ways.. I apologize for my lack of clarity and  "dream thinking" about music and mathematic... 😊

i think as you did that this control of patents is more than objectionable...

@mahgister

Either you missed my point, or more likely I just didn’t articulate it well.

Music, as played by the interpretation of the artist and the inference of the listener through their “world view”, ethics and values, is not what I was trying to describe with respect to creating an “arrangement.”

Just the arrangement of the notes, in any combination, with any set timing pattern, can absolutely be mathematically derived. As such, given sufficient processing power, storage and time, the entire universe of those arrangements can be calculated and stored and the pattern used in a copyright attempt. Which is what I find objectionable.

Interesting thanks..

I never doubt that A.I. will be anything than also a great tool.. Positive and negative...

lIke nuclear energy...

or virus research ...

The problem is our societal immaturity... Too much powerful for us now...

Music is and is not mathematic... Sorry for the paradox...

Music as a written or translation of sounds by marks is mathematic..

As a playing live event, it is not...

I will say it in a more deeper way :

Mathematic is music at the end , but music is never only mathematic to begin with ..

 

Music is linked to non commutative mathematic...And because of this as all musical qualities studied in psycho-acoustic and produced by musicians or by the speaker of any language, are not reducible to sounds in the Fourier meaning window, which is a linear commutative "country", music is related in the many culture and in Europe to ethical and esthetical FREE CHOICES that reflect and depict human evolution in a non linear Non Fourier way in a time dependant domain... ( mathematic is time independant )

History of music is anything but a meaningless history...Every choices in music reflect deep meanings at ALL LEVELS of thinking..

Then A. I. will be able to create and imitate any sounds existing, musical one included... But there will be there no ethical and no esthetical reflected choices... This history will disapear under "pleasurable meaningless imitated sounds "...

Most people are unable to read music as ethical and esthetical history... The Choices of Beethoven are meaningful even philosophically for the HUMAN RACE... not for a machine...

Imitation will kill creativity...

 

«Music is a NEW mathematic who wrote itself spontaneously through the gesturing producing and receptive body »-- Anonymus African musician dancing while playing Yoruba talking drum...

 

great post thanks...

Just a word about Hinton : he is not a science fiction writer...

I thought the 60 minutes AI segment was very good. The science fiction crowd will focus in on the destruction on mankind, while the science crowd will cheer the ability to perform 1 billion PHD man hours of research in a week.

 

Exactly right because apart from the spiritual stakes in this game, there is a power stakes, and we know what big corporations annihilated  freedom in the last three years...

Imagine now they control A. I. ?

do you trust the like of Bill Gates ?

I dont think so... As i say i am optimistic... Criminal corparations will cease to exist in thirty years... If not we will all die..

The sad reality is that the criminal element will always exploit any advancement in technology to their advantage and our detriment. The future will be different but that doesn’t always mean better?

Do you think Geoffrey Hinton quit his job at  Google for fun ? Hinton was the genius , the man who designed this neural networks thirty years ago as they are now , do you think he quit his job and speak that A. I. is a danger for us all for  the thrill of making the news ; do you think he think as you  : " i am good with that, because A. I. was invented by people" ?

😊

Just because AI can create music or other art does not necessarily mean it will be good or popular. But if some of it is, I’m good with that; after all, AI was invented by people.

Very interesting posts...Thanks ...

The most important line:

That would destroy any the ability of any human to create and copyright their own music.

But you forgot to say that in music , apart of being a manufactured product, than in spite of what you said :

if it “creates” something pleasing: So what?

Classical music history reflect ethical values choices not only esthetical one, in an history where is revealed human consciousness history through choices and meanings.. Indian music, persian music, african music , european music, jazz music etc ... it is called education through music...

People wil be transformed tomorrow in pleasurable seeker of sound manufactured soft or hard hearing orgasm WITH NO MEANINGS out of a stimulis set ..

"meaning is history "--- a Goethe disciple know or Collingwood disciple..

Machine had no "history" save thermodynamical and algorythmical timing and implemented design progress...

 

It is a fork path in the road for us all ...

Humanity is not socially mature and cannot use these tools without self destruction..

Any other perespective is driven by money and power hubris..

The musical creative context problem is secondary...Human want to be machine now, not male one or female one , only the perfect machine one ...

The corporate monsters controlling people want it because they will "control" it for their own interests...big pharma and big A. I. companies , military industrial complex are all driven by only one money pocket with three names , one is Blackrock.. It is not conspiracy "theory",it is trivial fact... Russia and China said no, thanks... it is not good or evil, it is stupid against more wise...

Average dude is unable to understand the maths behind A.I. and even his creators as Hinton, who know the math, underestimated human creativity and spiritual power completely ...Most engineers confuse spirit with I.Q. and confuse "soul" with "brain"... Even our brain dont work as a mere neural network... See Penrose and Hameroff..

Machine access all the internet in second, we can acess universal memory field but we must learn it before we let our body on the floor .. Machine cannot link to universal memory... ( the skelton schematics of the universal memory is hidden behind the prime numbers distribution dynamic music see Alain Connes " the music of shape " conference a the genius founder of non commutative geometry )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52ZAPrRbqE&t=479s

Contrary to what engineers falsely claim , we are immortal spirit and any machine will die in a finite amount of time : one thousand years or one million years, it is the same...A short life indeed...  😊

For musicians who sell music for a living for films, youtube, or for companies, they will loose their jobs as my translator friend loose it long time ago for mechanical translation...

Transhumanism is a religion and growing faster than traditional religion but mainly among ignorant crowds and among low level scientists workers ..

i am optimist for the next century, not fo the next 30 years... As any old grumpy man because they always miss half of the story to tell... After all, i am one now at 72... 😁

 

«Any machine or any man is a borrowed spirit with no soul said my divorced wife»-- Groucho Marx 🤓

«Our mother know better, they birth us»--Chico Marx anthopologist 😎

«Is there out in space a mother civilization ?»-- Harpo Marx reading comic books😎

«Why not a twin or a wife or a husband civilization to ours ? » Gummo Marx reading the same comic book🙃