I already have aftermarket power cables for my preamp and power amp. Should I also add an aftermarket cable to my PS Audio Quintet power conditioner, or is there no point?
Now I'm nowhere near as smart or as good with audio adjectives as most of the b*llsh*tt*rs here, but wouldn't that be adding a tone control to a tone control?
Yes there is typically a reason for doing so, although your results may vary of course. Many of us use cabling to taylor the sonic signature to personal preferences. If you change the mains cable and find a difference in sonic signature, then you'll know that your rig is sensitive to such variations. Then you may want to audition a few or even numerous different cables in order to determine which signature you most prefer. Of course if you detect little to no difference, then indeed what would be the point? As in much else that we do, experimentation is generally the key.
I've found so far that the 'feed' cable to the cond is as valuable and or integral as is any other... sometimes more so, as it sets a broader table given more items are then downstream of it's influence, as in a power filter/cond.
conponents using their single pc have solely that pc's influence.
In fact, in my arrangements the feed cable is more $$$ than those which feed off it. That wasn't the idea going in. It just worked out that way... and work for me it does.
I'd likely be as well off were the feed cables liekwise to those downstream ones... yet for my preffs... I have what I have.
A certain amount is by way of a 'trickle down' result. or from a previous application no longer valid for me, and the cables across the board were then improved upon.
Ex... Since I saw the advantages of running dual mono or simply mono amps, I've gone from Stock pc's to Audience, to Voodoo Black Dragons, to Gold Dragons, to Taipan helix's now, on my main amp (s0. i had an Elrod Sig III briefly on a Sterreo amp... that amp got gone but the Elrod stayed.
Along came a RSA Haley and the Elrod Sig III used then as a feed was a no brainer to use with it.
The Gold D's slid down to the Dd15 sub, and another 2 ch amp. Simple.
I call it the "Grow as you go... or as you can" program.
'....or is there no point'....aftermarket pcs do..in many intances..improve what you hear....like any other point in the chain, you have to experiment with a few to find one that you like best.but do they help...YES.!!!
at a buddy's system, we replaced a $1k cord into the Acoustic Revive RTP w/ a Stage 3 power cord (think $2k or $3k). improvement was clearly obvious, and affected every component downstream. YMMV
While I am not specifically recommending this power cord (although I have enjoyed Harmonic Technology products in my system over the years), the point of the article is that a good cord going into your power conditioner can make a very big difference.
Of course, bear in mind that there is a whole crowd on this site who thinks that all power conditioners are harmful...
Like P.T. Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute".
To call a power cord a tone control is ludicrous. Every power cord and power conditioner I have ever tried is subtractive. When there is something about the sound that is objectionable, most audiophiles try to remove it. The quick fix is to install a band aid over it. Cover it up. What could be easier? Just disconnect one power cord and plug in another one. Even Elizabeth stated in a recent post that trying to connect bare wire to your amp and speakers is too hard and dangerous. PLEASE!!! Did anyone ever stop to think there could possibly be something else wrong or would that be too difficult? Maybe there is a bad match somewhere in the system. Maybe the speaker wire or interconnects you just bought are not right with your system. You don't want to sell these wires and buy different ones because you will lose money and you don't know what to buy anyway, so, you apply the band aid. Then you apply another one and another one because it is so easy instead of looking for the real problem. And a change in sound is more often than not perceived as an improvement when more often than not it is only a change.
Manley Labs recently added a remote control volume to the Stingray after commenting several times the Stingray was a purist design for the best possible sound, but too many audiophiles whined, so, Manley Labs gave in and most likely compromised the sound. Many audiophiles agree the original purist design is still the best sounding.
How many audiophiles are waiting for the first remote control turntable? What power cord would you use?
despite Macdadtexas laughter--power cords Do make a difference on pwr line conditioners--at least in my system they were significant and I have been through a number of cords --these are on furman IT ref 20 conditioner--call Scott at TEK line--pwr cords are outstanding and I have compared them with cords costing 3-4times their cost --good luck--also note system sensitivity and resolution will play a big part!
Oh yeah, I forgot about the crowd that thinks that power cords don't make a difference, that wire is just wire, and that cutting up and reterminating an extension cord from Home Depot is as good as anything else you can find....
Or the crowd that thinks that all power amplifiers sound thes same....
Dgaylin, You missed my point. I never said power cords don't make a difference and I use the best speaker cable and interconnects I can find to match my system.
What I am saying is before automatically thinking you need a different power cord look for the real reason you are not satisfied with the sound.
Stop being lazy and learn about your system and your room.
Rrog -- my response was to Macdadtexas, and I wasn't taking issue with your post. And for the record I think Macdadtexas is a good dude, even if we disagree on powercords.
But since you thought I was, let me note that I don't disagree with what you said particularly. My experience is different than yours in that most (but not all) of the power conditioners I have tried have had positive effects in my system, but that doesn't mean we disagree there.
But if you try to find the best speaker cable and interconnects you can find to match your system, and you agree that power cords make a difference, than why not also find the best power cords (within your budget) to match your system too?
And why assume that the power cord (unlike the speaker cable or interconnect match) is a band aid fix to something else inherently wrong. Learning about your system and your room is important for making any system chagnes. But of course one of the only ways to do this is to experiment, which can include -- among other things -- trying different power cords.
For my part, when I have tried different power cords it has not been because I was particularly unhappy about some aspect of the sound of my system, it was because I was interested in learning what a different cord (or speaker cable or interonnect) might do to change (hopefully in a positive way) the sound.
Ok, my turn. I may have had to read 19 posts but taken in bits and pieces there are folk with my ideas and priorities. It's just that nobody wants to be told what we spend our bucks on is stupid or---. I just bought the Tee version of the Audience and it comes with their E power cord. That should be good enough for me. While I love my system----well I guess it's like girls----ask Tiger.
Ggaylin, You made a very good point. I keep an open mind and I will try anything if I think it will improve the sound. How many remember the $1.20 tweak. It involves 4 quarters and 2 dimes which makes $1.20. The quarters are placed in the front left and right corners of the speaker and the dimes are place in the center between the quarters at the front edge of each speaker. Try this and listen for a while. Then remove the coins and see if you hear a difference. This would work best on a conventional speaker cabinet. I don't think it would work on Vandersteens. You have nothing to lose by trying it. If you don't hear a difference you still have your $1.20. I tried this on a pair of JBL L-300 speakers when I was using a single ended amp. It was in the early days of single ended and there wasn't much in the way of speakers for low powered amplifiers yet. The L-300 turned out to be a good choice with it's high quality drivers using Alnico magnets and it was truly a full range speaker. Anyway, the $1.20 tweak made more than a noticable difference on that speaker.
There was another tweak that was very affective. Does anyone know what happened to Microscan? It was a devise that attached to the back of the speaker cabinet to absorb cabinet resonance. This was a very good and powerful devise. I used them with terrific results and I gave a pair to a friend who attached them to the bass cabinets on his Martin Logan Monoliths and he said it was the biggest improvement he had ever made to any system. Microscans disappeared for a while then came back under another name, I believe it was Technisonic. If anyone has information about this product I would appreciate hearing about it.
By the way, I do have a favorite power cord that comes in a variety of types and sizes. The name is Beldon.
Another rant From your local on & On member .on the futility of perfectly optimizing system components with cabling .
Yet the reason to at least try.
The only note Id add here is about the trying aspect of cabling. Power cords or Ics . Or for that matter, speaker cables, in order to optimize a system . Not to patch over glaring issues.
The prime issue with cabling, once one actually tries decent cabling and realizes they do affect the sound, is the sheer combinations of brands and models available to be tried!
Its more than daunting! Its mind boggling!
No one can or could ever infuse, examine, accept or reject all the possible itterations, and their subsequent possible combinations even with a integrated amp and a single source!... let alone a system comprised of all separates with multiple sources!!
Anyone who has do let me know. Please.
No one can or will I assure you.
A couple three years ago, I went thru trying out at the onset, just 6 or 7 brands and/or models within those brands, and wound up auditioning about ten in all. It tooke me about 7 months or better as some were brand new and required run in.
Listening to the same dozen or so CDs for the better part of a year is towards the end, sublime torture. One must consider or try merely one at a time too, if actual changes or improvements are to be recognized.
Looking back as I approached the end of the trials, I felt I could conceive of possible previous combinations for future applications, which then were untried as solutions So that would have been just guess work. True enough, some inkling of their own voice was achieved as I did use more than one system very often to glean results of the wires from, though the combined effect of brand X + brand Y in truth, remained a mystery, in spite of the educated hypothesiss I could then surmise..
A systematic approach is required IMHO for integrating either components or cabling into an audio rig. Pick an end to start at and go from there..
Same + same throughout is easiest. Same brand + different models comes in second place for optimizing as its more difficult, but Id think better chances for gain would be had that way. More pertinent results too, as each device is being considered at greater lengths.
Thereafter comes the various brands and various models in those brands for optimizing each and every individual device. Naturally that means both the IC and PC attached to it!
This latter method appeals to my more masochistic tendencies. This route is the most arduous and time consuming, and yes its pure guess work at times, until the proper brand/model is attained . And that end may or may not ever come to pass . As again theres too freakin many wires out there to contend with!!!!
Yet even then, the end result derived at with as much objectivity as is possible, remains a subjective and imperfect product.
If you could run through them all, by that time, therred be further iterations of what youve already tried out awaiting their own turns in your array!!
So my best guesstimation of how folks do what they do with power cords, conds, and cabling, is that they push along to the limits of their paitience and then settle, or compromise. On something, somewhere. Or they give up completely and toss in for another component instead. Some wont do that much. Others will throw pennies at their pricey collection and expect premium effects.
Or, as was said, by pasting over some irritating sonic deficit, or attenuating some other minor issue. Without such compromises Id have blind squirrels juggling butcher knives in my brain all the time as that pit has no bottom. Then and there, the fun is entirely evicted from the past time. And severe disappointment moves right on in.
So I, and dare say, we must compromise. Somewhere, on something, to some extent. How much though, and in which area (s) seems the real questions each audio nut answers routinely.
BTW The shortest road of all is to simply never try a particular aspect of audio as it might interfere with preconceived ideals, training, knowledge, and or simply makes no sense at the time to the rig builder..
Of course, to never strive .to gain personal experience and continually debunk or condescend such a prospect, is how ignorance really thrives, and prejudices rise up.
I feel theres tons of very good to great gear out there for sure. Spending time eeking out its highest potential performance level takes time and care with wires, isolation, and possibly addressing the incoming power line faults and artifacts. IMHO thats as valuable as is the synergy between components, and the matching criterium some devices have as prerequisites. Dont do these things, and the truth of them remains an unknown, and the best your gear can hand you is never going to be yours.
I am not familiar with the conditioner/distributor you mention but in general, for those using non-current limiting power distributors (those that do not limit instantaneous impulse current)-- the power cord running from the box to the wall is often the most critical in the system.
The reason for this in general terms is that this one PC is responsible for feeding the current load for all upstream electronics. The more electronics, the higher the current load, the more important the quality and measured impedance, reactance, conductance and gauge becomes.
In essence, the design characteristics that _should_ be a part of a proper cords construction are magnified because it will affect every component's interface with AC upstream.
The simple analogy to consider would be plugging class A bias mono amps into a passive conditioner or power strip with massive 7 gauge cords while out the back is a 16 gauge belden to the wall. That is an extreme example of folly, but there are many cases where several line components with good cords are plugged into a box with a stock cord for eval and the conditioner gets the blame when the bottleneck is actually the inferior feed cord to the wall. That will always be the potential weak link in any single AC line power system. In other words, the more dedicated lines the better.
A small digression -- Separating high-current (amps) from low current electronics on dedicated lines is by far the best gift you can give to the potential performance of your system. Digital and analog are _not_ the worst system mates per longstanding audiophile mythology. It is high current and low current that benefit the most from AC separation.
Some people make the mistake of taking amps off their own dedicated line when the buy a conditioner so that they also benefit from protection/conditioning and this always spells disaster. Amps pull very hard on an AC line and off the crest of the sine wave. The more electronics you have on a shared line the more difficult it is for electronics to draw current efficiently--especially amps off a single 20A breaker shared by low current source and line level electronics. Whenever possible find a separate line for the amps and their performance will increase dramatically.
In my experience, the best power cord--or equal to the best cord on electronics should be running to the wall from any power strip or passive conditioner. Transformer, choke, coil and regenerator based power distributors have also proven to benefit from better cords but probably to a less obvious degree because of their internal current management.
Tlg--yes I have refIT 15 and 20 used the 15 first in my 2ch system then moved it to HT and went with 2 of the ref IT 20 for my 2ch system have played with a number of pwr cords--email me and I will give you all the various results Rich
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