Advise on Audyssey Sound Equalizer installation?

captcapitalism? Did you get me email?

qwackysmacky@juno.com,
I sent you an Email. I could use the help if you are willing to help or consult.

"But within there lies the crux. The EQ is a product that works irespective of the speaker placement. So no matter what I do, according to Audyssey, I am using the product correctly".

No that's not going to be right. We've been to the Audyssey product training, and are trained to use the Audyssey. And I can tell you for certain that, yes, you still need to place things properly! You can't place speaker where there's major holes in the sound, and expect the Audyssey to fix that! It's not possible. Also, you need to properly setup the speakers for proper "aim" and "toe-in" for proper tonality from all the seats, or at least get that fundamental aspect with-in tollerance, to get even dispersion from the seating possition(s), as well as proper imaging/soundstage width considerations.
Tedmbrady is correct in stating that the acoustics need to be considered for best results, and the less the Audyssey has to do, the better.
You mentioned "book shelves" in the room, which may strongly help break up first order reflections, add diffusion, and tame slap-echo. All of these things are a plus in most smaller/medium domestic room settings.
I'd like to see your room personally to consult.
But yes, there'll be no replacement for experience here. Have one of us look at it and help you with design or at least setup, tweaking, consulting, and Audyssey calibration. Some out there will even "teach" you how to do it, while they do your system! That way you can kno what you're doing better on your other systems in the future. Good luck

One of the limitations of the EQ, is there is no install kit available to the consumer and the installer will have to come back to calibrate when it will becomes necessary.

For that reason alone, along with many others, you need to do the room treatments and sub/sat configurations and decisions first. I am a longtime Audyssey user (prior to my current setup I used a Denon 4806 w/ Audyssey for movie theater setup), but my Audyssey-light was self-configurable, and I heard benefits as I redid the calibrations when things changed..

Your comments that the Audyssey EQ would solve all ills is only partially correct. Like an antibiotic. it will work MUCH better if there is less infection (I assume that's correct...:>) ). It can only do so much with filters and math. If it has a better envirnoment, it will not have to do major shifts in phase, etc.

Well, you certainly can use that sub in a 'standard' configuration and the advice you got from Sumiko is, undoubtedly, influenced by their REL connection. (They bought the company.)

If you make sure that the BM is set lower than 65Hz (highest setting of the SF LP filter, unless it can be bypassed), then you have a regular setup.

As for the EQ, it really depends on where your room modes are. Perhaps you should get a copy of RoomEQWizard and do some measuremenst before investing in the Audyssey. I am not trying to deter you but to advise you to measure (and setup and treat) the room before committing to it.

Kal

I have the Sonus Faber Cremona Mains, Center & Matching Sub. Cremona has a matching Sub. Anyway, I can honestly say I never heard distortion from any of the Cremonas even at high levels. As far as I can tell the Cremonas can handle anything I throw at them beautifully. I also use NBS cables and Krell electronics so maybe that helps?
Also, all of my guests, including musicians, can't understand why I need better sound. As for the Power Handling, my systems averages (w/ Projector & Sub) at 3.8 Amps. The most I have ever seen it peek was 6 Amps. Which is rare. When it peaks, it’s usually around 5. (Which is funny, because I re-wired the room for 20 amps as my first step)

As for the Topic of a more standard sub:
If I would do it all over again I probably would have gotten one because of the Set Difficulties and the expensive price tag ($4k). But there is no question in mind that I would be giving up one of the most musical Subs that I have had the pleasure of hearing.

One of the limitations of the EQ, is there is no install kit available to the consumer and the installer will have to come back to calibrate when it will becomes necessary.

Cap

I infer from your references to Sumiko that you are using a REL. What you describe is the standard setup for them but not what the majority of sub manufacturers recommend. One issue is that your main speakers still run full range; that limits their power handling and can give higher distortion than otherwise. It also puts a larger burden on the amps that feed them.

That said, you need to use the Audyssey in order to EQ all the channels in that setup. If you used a more standard sub configuration, with BM in the pre/pro and the sub fed via a line-level output, you could use a dedicated sub EQ for it. The Velodyne SMS-1, the R-DES, the BFD come to mind but there are others.

Overall though, you will need to recalibrate the Audyssey every time you make a change in room acoustics and/or equipment and/or set-up and configuration.

Kal

I really want to do this right.

The reason I initiated the thread was so I can get assistance. And in return, I can give feedback on this fascinating product. But for the feedback to be the most helpful, I would have to use the product properly.
But within there lies the crux. The EQ is a product that works irrespective of the speaker placement. So no matter what I do, according to Audyssey, I am using the product correctly.

However, according to my analysis in this forum, that might not be the whole picture. It seems that the end user results would be much better off if I could treat the listening room first. In other words get as flat as response as possible before the EQ kicks in.

I plan on phasing my Media Room. Professionally treating my room is just not possible for me this year. I plan on doing that, but just not now. My goal here is to get advice barring professionally treating my room. As Flrnlamb mentioned, what other tweaks do you think I might benefit from? Issues that I should address first?

How else can I deal with the bass management? The best idea I thought of so far was to get a second sub that handles 65-120Hz.

I did not know about the Low Pass filter when I bought it. So I called Sumiko and asked them for a solution. They said that I should not set the Sub in the PrePro, and pass the Line Level from the mains into the Sub- out from my amp??!!!! Even though ther will be 2 speaker spades connections per channel. Sumiko also said I should place the 3 way firing sub in between the Mains. But you have a matching Cremona Center that goes in between the Mains I reminded him. So he said behind the Center even though the stand will be right in front. Anyway, the forum suggested in the back of the room.

Incidentally, I actually thought the bass sounded much better when I set it to come from the mains as well. It actually sounded less boomy and tighter and far more musical. I think Sonus Faber intended the Sub to overlap with the Mains. Using Sumiko’s setup, the Bass would also overlap. Lots of people have multiple Subs how can the mains be any worse then a real sub. If anything the Mains should be better, because the bass is coming from the same speaker and probably ties in with the music better.

You need help. Otherwise, expect great compromises!
As handy as the Audyssey is, you must properly adress speaker placement, sub placement in relation to seats and rest of the speaker system (not, you're not only placing the sub to integrated with the mains, but also the sides and rears, as well as in relation to different seating possitions! (i.e, you can have the sub in phase for one set of seats, or a seat, and not another, in relation to the speakers!!!...this happens all the time, with serious performance compromises). Also, properly dealing with acoustics is still the way to go, and is a better foundation from which to work from. Also, there's better ways to deal with your bass management, than what you're doing. YOu're going to run into more challenges than you know, "overlapping" the bass from your "single subwoofer" with your mains (again, at the very least in relation to you seats!).
Also, of main concern is placing your seats and speakers where there's a "hole" in the frequency response for the bass! NO EQ or correction device in the world can fix this!!! You must get the setup so there's no major hole here. (especially at the critical crossover) It's all too easy (and common) to place the speakers where there's a nice hole at 80hz reigion, or thereabouts, where it's very critical for bass performance, inpact, flatness, etc. There's of course lots of other acoustical issues to adress., tweaks for the system, set-up considerations...all of which should be adressed before the EQ!
Once again, there's no replacement for knowledge and experience here folks, sorry. Do it wrong, and you'll get what everyone else ends up with, and that's a mediocre sounding, at best, sounding system!
There's hundreds of ways to compromise all of these multi-channel systems in difficult system/room setups, with challenging acoustics (many of which can't be fixed with a "box").
I'd suggest assistance. Good luck

I am very excited!

The Audyssey won't care what your config is and will do its best to adjust each speaker optimally.

Kal