Advice wanted on mid range setup

Thanks for the ideas, I have been following some threads here and the Teres seems to come up a lot. Question: 65 db of gain seems like an awful lot to ask of tubes, I assume that careful selection of the actual tubes is a big consideration, microphonics and such must really come up as a big issue here. I can here the voice of Doug Frey, one of my EE professors at Lehigh, "take as much gain up front as you possibly can..."

The ARC ph3 seems to be the one in my price range, but that has only 54 db of gain. I will have to look into the Aesthetix model.

R

Ya know, $400 is what, 5% of 7k? Seriously, I don't think it would be a stretch to tell my wife I came in on budget. If +/- 5% is good enough for the electric utility, it's good enough for me.

Still wondering about the ARC PH3, seems like the 54db is just on the shy side for .4mV output.
Ron

reb,

Thanks for your ideas, i agree, i want to take as much gain as possible in the phono stage. Any one have any recommendations for very high gain, affordable (1 to 2 k used) tubed phono stages? Or will the very high gain part rule out use of tubes? (gasp)

What is the conventional wisdom about step up transformers?

(BTW, the LS16 will probably become and LS25 in the future, but after i get the analog rig)

thanks again,

ron

Wow! "I am always amazed by the drastic statements made by people like you with no real basis of fact"

People like me? How do you know what I am "like?"

Regarding Sound by Singer, we went in with no pre tenses whatsoever. My brother in law had purchased some equipment from them in the past, and, as we were in the neighboorhood, we stopped by. We got into a great discussion with Mike about the merits of digital vs. analog. I clearly told him that I was not going to buy anything that day, and told him the content of my system.

Mike seemed to have time, and he suggested that we go all the way to the back room. At that point, it was three music lovers, talking about music, equipment, and life in general. He seemed very enthusiastic about doing the comparison.

Now, maybe this was all just good salesmanship, but, having 94 sales people in my employ, I do believe that he was geniunely enthusuastic about this. I mentioned that we were taking up a lot of time, and he very emphatically stated that he was having just as much fun as we were.

As far as reference to live music goes, a little background: I have two degrees, one in Electrical Engineering, the other in music literature. I studied trumpet with the Empire Brass quintet in Tanglewood, and been going to live concerts for over 20 years.

Three days before the demo, I was in the audience at Carnege hall, listening to a live orchestra.

Being an engineer, I had long ago just assumed that digital had to be better, as the numbers are superior. I did NOT want to consider that I would be getting into an old, non mainstream medium.

I know what I heard: the analog sounded more like a real orchestra. Period. Believe me, I would rather spend the 7k on more cd's, but, I know what I heard.

Also, I am aware of the obvious fact that what I heard was not "normal". I have since heard other analog rigs, and confirmed the virtues. Maybe not on the same level, but enough to carefully decide that a well purchased used rig here on audiogon is an experiment worth doing.

Anyway, aside from your two posts, people here have been very helpful. It seems as the synergy between components is the most important issue, especially the gain issue.

Another question: Is there any technical reason why the "better" cartridge have such low output? Is the idea to keep the coils as small as possible so as to have the lowest moving mass? Are there any very nie cartrides that might have higher output?

Thanks again

I want to thank all the posters who have given me constructive input here. As usual, it is of incalculable benifit to build on the body of knowledge, rather than plod along in isolation.

My stratagy, I think, will probably be to build from the cartridge (and the music collection) on up. I am fully aware that this is a SYSTEM, but one does need a starting point. The cartridge seems to dictate both the phono stage requirements as well as the arm requirements which in turn seem to hint at the type of TT to be used.

To those who seem to have a problem with the process that lead me to undertake this strange journey, I wish to point out that you miss the entire point of a forum like "Audiogon:" due to this community, I can buy and sell equipment with minimum financial penalty. That IS my in home trial!! Far more fair than "wasting a salesman's time with no intention of buying".

It is interesting to me that those who seem to find some fault with my desire to do this have 1) No sales feedback, 2) No systems posted, and 3) Have only recently joined our community.

That being said, I will now respectfully ignore those individuals who's posts I find not to be helpful.

Doug,

Thank you. I primarily find myself listening to classical and Jazz, almost exclusively accustical Jazz. I don't seem to get as much pleasure out of electric instruments, I suppose that I have no reference in my mind as to how they should sound.

With my penechant towards tubes, I have found I like a relaxed, but resolved sound. I am not really interested in "Slam", although sound stage depth is important.

I live in New Jersey, but travel extensively, and would certainly love the opportunity to hear some systems if possible. I suppose at this point, I am intersted in hearing different systems.

Best regards,

Ron