Advice needed on MC cartridges

Jasonbourne52, I'll look up the HanaSL mc cartridge you recommended. Thanks

Johnto, I'm unfamiliar with MI cartridge so will go to the Soundsmith site to get educated about them.

Fuzztone, I'll look up the two cartridges you recommend as well. Thank you too.

Mike

If Mijostyn is correct, having to buy an exceedingly expensive $8000 MC cartridge to hear imrpovement over the current MM cartridge, is certainly not a cost effective alternative in keeping with the cost of the other components. Maybe I should stay put with the Ortofon 2M black and hope Santa leaves a Ortofon Windfeld Ti under the tree this Christmas.

Mike

Thank you all for your input. I’m learning a lot from you all. I’ll try to respond to each of your posts one at a time below.

Noromance- glad you had good luck with your Decca stylus replacement

Jasonbourne- thanks for the explanation on the the MC’s low inductance coil, faster transient response, and their lower cable capacitance loading. I’ll be looking int the Hana’s as several here have recommended them.

Ghdprentice- you mentioned your $3500 Ven den Hull Frog MC cartridge took your system to a whole new level. Could you explain what improvement you have been hearing and what cartridge and type you’d been using previously?

Socalm- thank you for your useful comparison of the performance of your Hana ML to the Ortofon Black 2M and the link. I really trying to get an understanding of how a MC might sound different form a MM so that comparison was spot on.

Richdirector, yes the Luxman. 507uX Mk2 does have a built in phono stage you can set for either MM or MC. Don’t know what setting a MI might use but I’ll figure that out as I keep learning from all.of you.

Mjjostyn and Dover, as a former Howard Johnson employer at age 16, I can attest to what mijostyns is saying. Interesting that you mention MC’s being brighter, generally speaking. I’ll have to listen for that if I’m able to get any demos. Thanks

Knock1, thank you for the comparison of the Ortofon 2M to your Hana ML. A lot of folks here seem to like the Hana’s.

LewM- Thank you for you long and thoughtful post. You provided a lot of pertinant information to consider. I’ve already read your post twice. Thank you. The low output type MC’s seem to get better reviews so far here. so i’ll keep that in mind. As you advise I won’t be buying vintage or used. If you don’t mind my asking How do you think a Audio Technica ART7 might sound differently than my Ortofon 2M?

Tim_p- i’ll definitely be looking into the HANA line.

Jim (tomic60)- Thanks, I am trying to dope out how much more more i’d have to spend to get a significantly better/different cartridge performance from my Ortofon Black 2M considering the components and setting of my current system. You mentioned an upper end $3000 figure for a good cartridge. For my current system with a VPI Classic 2 turntable do you think a cartridge costing that much might be overkill for my system? Or should I really be thinking of cartridges of that cost as suitable for my system .without any other system upgrades?

I’ll look up Lyra Delos cartridges too since you mention them.

Erikt, Thank you for mentioning the AT33SA and how well it matches it matches with the MC impedence of your Luxman-509x. That's definitely pertinent to my system and I’ll be sure to look up the AT33SA in short orfder. Thank you much.

Hope I didn’t miss anybody and thanks again all. You’ve given me a lot to think about and research.

Mike

Normanthagard, thank you for the recommendation on the Hanas cartridges.

Ghdprentice, Thank you for describing in what ways the Van den Hull Frog (MC) improved your system’s sound quality. Interesting how your record surface noise was so reduced. That’s always been an issue for me. Years ago I tried solutions like Carvers Phase Linear Autocorrelator and Burwens Transient Noise Eliminator, but never considered a better designed needle and cartridge could help in that regard..

Mike

Ghdprentice, thanks again for the clarifications and advice.. I’d really like to hear your ’’Frog" cartridge.

Oldrooney, thank you for the differences you describe in listening to either type of cartridge.

Mr_m;, appreciate your +1 on the Hana ML cartridge. Seems to be lots of fans of that MC cartridge, and good reviews from what I’ve read so far. I’ve still to read up on every cartridge someone’s mentioned here so far, but hopefully will get on that today.

Raul, I very much appreciate you taking the time to answer my exact questions. That’s been helpful in determining how much I should be budgeting for an upgrade and what would be appropriate for the system components I do have.

Just out of curiosity what are examples of turntable(s)/tonearm(s) you might feel would be optimal for one of the more expensive cartridges. It’s possible with a little saving I might acquire one of those MC’s in the $3000 range that you indicate  could "put me in a different league". I’m not planning on upgrading my VPI Classic 2 any time soon, or ever, unless I win the lottery, but a person can dream. Again thank you vey much for your helpful input and links.

Mike

Raul, why would the Unipivot tonearm need to be changed out? That's no small matter to have to consider doing.

Mike

Thanks for the explanation. That is certainly not good news. 

Mike

Secretguy, thjanks for the recommendation of the Denon. I’ll add it to the list of cartridges to research.

Jim, Thanks, Do you think it would be detrimental to the physical structure of an MC cartridge, perhaps the needle or cantilever, to have it on a unipivot arm or is it just that it would perform better on a different type arm.

Mjostyn, pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by the "compliance" of a cartridge?  I was starting get the impression to LOMC’s performed better than HOMC's, but since you mention having a compliance factor to consider with a unipivot arm, may send me back to the drawing board.

Thank you for your explanation of what constitutes a gimbal arm and how they work. I’ll look up the arms you mention, along with the nineteen cartridges suggested by everyone so far. Hope i don’t get an additional case of sticker shock. Acclimating to the thought of a possible $3000 MC cartridge purchase is unsettling enough for one day, and I’ve yet to research the MI type cartridges.

Thank you for the education and taking the time to post all the above information . I’ve been learning a lot so far from you and everyone else.

Mike

I did look up the Schroder CB mijostyn owns and it was in that price range you mention. He’s fortunate to have one. Thanks for the reassurance a good quality MC cartridge can work on a unipivot arm. I can save up to upgrade to a pricey cartridge in a reasonable amount of time, but although I'd like to, it’s unlikely I’ll ever be swimming in the deep end of the audiophile pool.

Mike

Jmarin, appresiate your recommendation.

Wspohn, the Hana cartridges seem to be getting a lot of good reviews here. Thanks for yours.

Sokogear, I’m wondering too how much difference there would be between two high quality cartridges with that much difference in price. I’ll really need to find a dealer somewhere that has both types, so I can hear what the differences may be.

I am willing to spend the money to get a significant improvement in sound. But I’m not guessing there would be that much improvement over the $700 Ortofon Black 2M MM cartridge I already have and MC ones, perhaps the Hana ML for example, which is a fine MC from what people here are saying, but costing only only a few hundred more. Especially if MC cartridges are already generically more expensive. I’m speculating there may be some differences in sound quality one might prefer, but that might not translate to the amount of improvement maybe a Frog or equivalent model could deliver.

Mike

Andrei_NZ- Thank you for your recommendatons. I just finished looking them up.

Sokogear- Thank you for the recommendation on the Vanden Hull MC One Special. Ijust finished reading up on that model too plus the pricier Frog model recomended earlier. I like that Van den Hul will re-tip their MC cartridges if need be for $500 (that price was quoted in one review). which apparently isn’t the norm for MC cartridges from what I’m gathering. VPI does carry the Van den Hul line which is a good thing in that they must feel they complement their turntables.

Safebelayer- Thank you for the link and the recommmendation on the ART9. I was reading up on that one too last night.

Raul, I’m going to take the plunge on a cartridge in the $3,500 dollar range. I’ve been reading up on the Van den Hul Frog (about $3500) ghdprentice suggested, and others in the Van den Hul line. Also I’ve read a little on the Lyra Kleos and the Hana Umani Red. Do you, or anyone, have any other suggestions or preferences for other cartridges to research in that price range?. Any input would be appreciated.

Also, I’m still wondering why you don’t like unipivot tonearms for these more expensive cartridges. I called VPI yesterday, who sell the Van den Hul line. They said they hadn’t ever heard of any issue along those lines. I tried posting that same issue on the VPI Forums site, but apparently that site has been down for months with technical issues.

Mike

Mulveling, thank you much for mentioning VPI’s dual pivot mod. I’d not heard of that before and it may come in handy if I need to address Raul’s concerns about unipivots negatively affecting cartridge performance somehow.. Just read a long post on the dual pivot mod on the Steve Hoffman site and will have to look into it some more.

Appreciate your recommends too, although I think I’ll be going the expensive route. At age 70 in a few weeks, I’m beginning to realize it’s time to try and get the best you can afford while you still can and still have time to enjoy it.

Ghdprentice, that would be great to get double the usual MC life span out of a Van den Hul Frog. If I had to purchase today I’d be leaning in the Frog’s direction, but more research after identifying alternatives at that price point is probably a good idea.

If anyone has any suggestion in that $3,500 price range please let me know. Thanks,.

Mike

Tobes, ghdprentice, and sokogear- I’ve not noticed any problems with the VPI’s unipivot arm other than it being a little jiggly right when placing it on a record. However this doesn’t appear to be any big deal once you get used to it as ghdprentice indicates, But I am certainly no expert. Just someone who’d rather not go to the expense of a changing tonearms unless absolutely necessary. Buying a pricey cartridge is quite enough expense by itself.

Mike

Raul, I went back and found your post on this thread where you explained how unipivots create too much unstabillity for the cartridge/stylus in the record groove. I missed that entry somehow. Appreciate your explanation there and just above. Thanks.

Sokogear, I’ll have to make do with the unipivot for the foreseeable future, since I’m now wanting a pricey cartridge that will stretch the budget a bit, plus not being wealthy. I’ll also be going with the phonostage built into my Luxman 507uX Mk2 integrated amp.

Mike

Let me post another and different question than one on unipivots, that may be less controversial. At the worst I can probably solve that issue with the VPI dual pivot mod mulveling suggested.

Mijostyn mentioned early on this thread, and above, there is a substantial monetary premium to pay for selecting a MC type cartridge, due to the popularity of MC’s. So today I began researching MI cartridges as suggested. With a budget in mind of three to four thousand dollars, do you think I should categorically be able to purchase a substantially better cartridge going the MI route? Or might it rather be more a matter of preference due to how each sounds.

The Soundsmith site lists a well reviewed MI cartridge called the PAUA MK II ES at $4000. Do any of you know how might compare with similarlly priced MC cartidges such the Hana Umani Red, Lyra Kleos, Van den Hull Frog, Charisma Audio Signature, Koetsu Rosewood Standard, Benz Micro Ebony. or others similarly priced. If MI cartridges are relatively speaking a much better value without a built in markup, it appears you could get much better cartridge at the same price with an MI. What do you think? Is that overly obvious or too simplistic? Any advice and guidance would be appreciated. Thanks all,

Mike

Thank myjostin. Is there anything particularly identifiable in the sound of MI’s you know of that might distinguish them from MC’s, or make some folks prefer MC’s for some reason? I’ll study up on the ones you mention tomorrow. Appreciate your assistance,

I know what you mean about your wife’s input. My late wife would have killed me by now if she knew of all my spending on stereo equipment since she passed away four or so years ago. Appreciate yours while you’ve got her. Thanks,

Mike

Mijostyn, like you I do prefer a flat uncolored response, so a Soundsmith MI cartidge should be just the ticket in that regard. Thanks for describing the attributes of their cartridges. I watched a couple of Youtube videos by Soundsmith owner Peter Lederman last night, who was describing how he designed his cartridges to address the things you mention about them. Quite interesting. I’ll do some more research on the Lyra and My Sonics you mentioned as well. Thanks.

Raul, I spent considerable time last night studying the impedance issue you mentioned in your earlier post in regards to the Soundsmith Paua impedance requirements. Not even knowing what impedance is, that took some doing. Here is what I found out. The Soundsmith Paua currently available operates at the standard 470 ohm impedance commonly used for mm cartridges. Looks like some redesigning has been done. Here are the specs listed for the Paua on the Uptown Audio site: Look at the last spec listed.

Specifications:
Stylus: Contact Line Nude, 0.100mm SQ
Radius of curvature: Nude Contact Line SELECTED
Cantilever: Telescoping Aluminum Alloy
Recommended Tracking force: 1.7 to 1.9 Grams
Effective tip mass: 0.30 mg
Compliance: 10µm/mN (low compliance)
Frequency response: 20-20,000 Hz ± 1.0 dB
Channel separation (stereo only): 1000 Hz >34 dB 50-15,000 >25 dB
Channel difference: <0.5 dB (Stereo)
Output Voltage: 0.4 mV
DC Resistance (DCR): 10-11 O each channel
Coil: 2.75 mH each channel
Suggested Preamp Gain: 58-64 dB
Soundsmith Recommends: MCP2 Variable Loading Preamp
Cartridge weight: 10.25 grams
Recommended Loading: 470 Ohms

The 470 ohm setiing is available as the MM phono amp (phono stage) setting on the Luxman 507uX MK II. So I should be good there if I end up going with the Paua. I’m only in the early stages of research however, so we’ll see.

I do recall you mentioning the VP 3-D bi-pivot option, now that you mention it and wondered what that was, but didn’t realize that it was a mod, rather than a separate tonearm. I am paying close attention to your posts, so please be flattered, And I do admit to never having had much short term memory, especially when it comes to remembering person’s names, I take a lot of notes, write things down, and bookmark lots of sites as I research to compensate.

Mike

Erichsch- this is getting increasingly confusing. If the loading impedance for the Soundsmith Paua MI cartridge is 470 ohms, is that different from the listed 47 k input resistance listed in the Luxman 507uX Mkii specs? The electronics terminology may be lost on me. When I saw the 47 in both I thought it must be the same figure. Maybe not. Somebody please steer me straight. Thanks,

Mike

I emailed Soundsmith to get an answer on the compatability of the Paua mk II MI cartridge and the Luxman integrated’s phonostage. I’ll post the answer from them for anyone interested.

Mike

426hemicuda. that sounds very interesting what you accomplished with your Denon 103 plus cost effective. If you were living close by I’d like to see how you did that. I admire anyone with the skill level and. know how to accomplish something like that.

Dover- thank you for your explanations and offering alternative cartridges to consider. This is a difficult subject to understand for an end user not conversant with electronics. So I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain some things. I’ll research all the alternative cartridges you recommend.

Raul, I don’t know much about the nuts and bolts of electronics, but should be able to figure out with some help an appropriate higher end cartridge compatible with the rest of my system. At the least, t am trying to learn so I don’t make too bad a mistake, so bear with me.

I’ve somewhere between 1300 to 1500 vinyl albums. I haven’t counted them in years. It varies, but I usually divide my listening time about equally between vinyl and CD’s. I’ve considerably fewer CD’s but their all newer to my collection and easier to use, so they get more use per capita. I’ll generally play two or three albums or CD;s per day on average.

2channel- thanks for your input and sharing your journey through the cartridges you’ve owned. At this point maybe I should just be soliciting recommendations on cartridges that fit my price point ($3500 range) that would be compatible with my Luxman integrated amps specs and my VPI Classic 2 turntable. I’m a bit disappointed both the Paua and Van den Hul LO won’t work. Thanks for the link too. I’ll check it out.

Mike

I copied the specs from the Luxman manual below for anyone who might be following along and interested and trying to learn about this subject and the specs under discussion.

Luxman 507uX MkII Specifications

Mr._m, I will do just that and have already started.

Tomic601, The Lyra Kleos has the same 91 ohm optimal loading. If your Delos can run at 100 ohms loading perhaps I’ve identified one potential candidate for purchase in the Kleos. Music Direct carries both.. The Kleos fits my budget at Music Directs price of $3695. Thanks.

Anyone know of a reason or spec that might lead you to believe the Kleos might not work witn my Luxman 507uX integrated amp or VPI Classic 2 turntable?. Below are the specs for the Lyra Kleos listed on the Music Direct site.

Lyra Kleos Specifications

Type: Moving Coil, coil and flux field centered design
Output voltage: 0.5mV
Frequency response: 10Hz - 50kHz
Channel separation: >35dB
Diamond stylus: 3x75µm Lyra designed Ogura long footprint Line Contact
Overhang Alignment: 0.12mm Locator Hole Precisely Aligned over Stylus Tip
Magnet(s): Dual disk neodymium
Coil Former: 5N iron core & 6N copper coils
Cantilever: 0.3mm Diameter Ogura Solid Boron Rod
Tracking force: 1.7 - 1.8 grams (1.75 Optimum)
Dynamic compliance: 12 x 10-6 cm/dyn
Internal impedance: 5.4 ohms
Inductance: 9.0 uH
Recommended Impedance: 91 - 47kOhms
Weight: 8.8g

Does it look from the specs above the Lyra Kleos has the same theoretical optimal load of 91 ohms? I don’t know how to read the specs with any degree of certainty. It would be nice it would work like Jim’s Lyra Delos does.

Mike

Johnnymics- glad you like your Hana ML. Seems like they manufacture some exemplary cartridges.

Jim, Thanks for the feedback the Lyra Kleos will work with with my integrated amps moving coil input. That’s good news. I’m working on a new list of MC and MI cartridges that fit my budget and will work with with my Luxman 507uX’s built in phono stage. The Kleos has moved to the head of the class now. I’ve an email in to Soundsmith and will contact Uptown Audio see if either sell any other cartriges that will fit the bill.

Big_greg, thanks for sharing your friend has your old VPI Classic 2 with both the dual pivot mod and a Lyra Kleo cartrige. I was reading up on the Kleos on the Lyra site. yesterday. They seemed to be recommending a steadier tonearm than the unipivot might be without the mod. So I’ll take your experience as a confirmation VPI’s dual pivot mod might be just the route to go. That’s more good news.

Again, anybody with MC or MI cartridge recommendations that fit my budget of $3000-$4000 and meet the specs of my Luxman 507ux MKII phono stage listed above, I’d very much welcome your suggestions. Thanks each and everyone of you for your input thus far.

Mike

Joseph, I don't doubt it. 

Mike

Anybody have a thought on Soundsmith’s "The Voice" High Output Moving Iron cartridge. I was informed today that "The Voice" would work with my Luxman’s integrated amp’ using it’s MM phono stage setting. It’s at the low end of my price range at $3000 and is well reviewed. I’m wondering how it might compare with the Lyros Kleos, or another possible choice, the Koetsu Rosewood at $3995, the high end of my price range..

I’m not absolutely sure that the Koetsu’s specs match up to work with the MC settings on the Luxman, but was told they would. If anyone could confirm they would or would not, that would be helpful. Thanks,

Ericsch- It would be nice to have more options and flexibilty than the Luxman MM/MC settings provide. But I’d prefer not spend the amount it would take to get a good quality separate phonostage. I only buy new and that would likely take a $1000 plus out of my budget, not too mention whatever the extra wires to it might run. I’m much too cheap for that.

Thank you for your suggestion though. It’s a sensible option. I’ve already two or three good cartridge choices within the limitations of the Luxman’s built in phono stage, so it should work out.

Mike

Jim, your posts are so encouraging. If the Lyra Kleos and Soundsmith’s "The Voice" sound as similar as you say, maybe I’ll go with The Voice. It’s priced a fair amount lower than the Kleos plus Soundsmith has an economical rebuild program if the cartridge ever needs it.

I called Soundsmith today. They recommended The Voice too out of their product line, as it would work on the Luxman 507ux MkII amp’s SS setting, while their LO cartridges wouldn’t work on its’ MC settings. Another person I spoke to elsewhere today about both these cartridges happened to be a Sussorro owner. She recommended the Soundsmith Voice as well. It’s interesting you mentioned they are similarly constructed.

I’ll drop the Koetsu Rosewood as a possible choice for the reason you mentioned. Maybe I’m starting to get this wrapped up. Thanks again,

Mike

Thanks Eric. You're most likely right. I did buy a second hand Shunyata Denali Hydra power conditioner a couple years ago and that's worked out well. Usually I stick with new though. 

Mike

Sandthemail. Thanks for your response. When I do get a more expensive cartridge I think I’ll get a professional to set up the installation for it this time. I’m a DIY type guy and worked hard at trying to get all the settings correct for the Ortofon 2M Black on my VPI Classic 2, but who knows how well I succeeded. I’d never done this before and had no baseline to know how well or not it was set up when I was finished.

I found an individual about a couple hours away in Charlottesville, Virginia who specializes in VPI turntables and their set up. I’ll be contacting him. It’s impressive you were able to figure out all you did to gets yours to perform as well as you have.

Mike

Tommy I did purchase the Fatboy and a Lyra Kleos cartridge at the same time. It's still nice to not have to fool around with the Unipivot's propensity to move about so much while placing it on a record. Since I installed both on my VPI Classic 2 simultaneously, I can't differentiate what improvement came from the tonearm and what came from the cartridge. I'm happy with both though especially with the overall clarity and detail to the sound with that combo. If you do upgrade just your tonearm and stay with the came cartridge I'd be interested with your impression of the Fatboy versus your current tonearm.

Mike