I would talk to Totem. I don't have experience with the Totems,but the Dyn woofer has a peak and dip that has been taken care of in compensation circuitry. My guess is that Totem crossed this around 2k or even lower. Without compensation circuitry, I believe if you just put this system active without educating yourself on the drivers, you might be upset with the results.
Anyone familiar with these speakers to chime in? |
Thanks Timlub.
Totem doesn't recommend the use of external crossovers for optimal performance.
Totem also mentioned if I wish to bi-amp they recommend doing it passively and letting the crossover use the natural filters.
I don't really know what that means and also my amplifier does not support bi-amp of bridge mode. What I should do? |
It's not clear if the reason you want to use an external crossover is for the purpose of biamping. If it's not, I can't imagine you could improve on the performance over Totem's internal crossover.
If you want to bi amp speakers you need 2 stereo amps (or 4 mono amps, or one 4 channel amp). I suggest you do some research on bi amping - there are plenty of threads in the archives on this.
Passive bi amping simply connects one amp channel to the woofer posts, another to the tweeter posts. The internal crossover handles the filtering. There are 2 ways to do this - 1) Vertical bi amp places 2 identical amps on each speaker - the preamp signal is split to each channel, and one channel powers the tweeter, the other the woofer. 2) Horizontal bi amping can use non-identical amps but they need to have a volume pot so you can ensure volume is balanced. In this configuration, one amp (the highest power amp) powers the woofer, the other powers the tweeter.
Be SURE that you remove the jumpers that connect the hi/lo binding posts.
If you want more advice - it would help if you post more info about the amps you're using and exactly what you are striving for . . . |
Hi Bdgregory,
You are right on, the purpose is indeed to bi-amp with two Accuphase P-102 stereo amps. The reason is that the P-102 do not support bridge mono mode.
I understand Totem is suggesting to use passive horizontal bi-amping but I am confused as how to achieve it (by using a Y adapter?) and how would that imply on the load average between the two P-102s.
I guess my question is, #1 if there is a way to load balance two stereo amplifiers evenly and to achieve maximum return on bi-amping and #2 would an active crossover benefit and how do I determine the crossover frequencies to get for the Mani-2.
If you have experience on actively bi-amping the Mani-2 with frequencies dividers like the Accuphase F-25, please educate me :)
Thanks. |
If you can find out the crossover frequency of the Mani-2's you can come close, i'm not sure how good it would be. you would need to put your F25 behind your preamp, find the crossover frequency of the Mani-2's run your F-25 out to your amps, probably around 2K (you will need this frequency).
I looked at a frequency chart online for the Mani-2's, they appear to be using LR4 slopes. The Accuphase uses Gaussian, so right off the bat, you will have a passive network using one type crossover slope and an electronic using another. If you really want to do this, I recommend that you just get the drivers, make your own boxes without crossover units and use the Accuphase equipment. The Forest Drivers are available, I have impedence curves for them, you would need to put a compensation network inline with no filters, then you can use the Accuphase stuff, the results would be outstanding. Really what you are trying to do is possible, but impractical. |
Duh, I looked at the frequency chart online??.. I went back, it is higher than I expected, the chart is small, somewhere between 3K & 3.2K. |
Thanks for the information Timlub. Based on the reply I received from Totem it looks like it's impractical to go active.
Perhaps this is the reason why Totem recommends to bi-amp passively so the filtering is done internally with the mani-2 crossover.
Cheers, |
given you have 2 identical amps - I suggest you go vertical biamp. Given your preamp doesn't have dual pre-outs - all you need is a y adapter - I have my home theater front mains set up this way - I run one interconnect from my preamp for each channel - and have an audioquest y adapter ( 1 F to 2 M connectors) that splits the signal and feeds each channel on the amp. Then simply run your speaker wires from each channel to the top and bottom binding posts on the Mani.
The only way you can use your F-25 is to remove the internal x-overs in the Manis and re-wiring the binding posts to connect directly to the drivers. You do not want to mess with that and I can't imagine you will like the result after you destroy the Mani's. |
Do you presently own 2 amps? If not, have you thought about bi wiring? Cables do matter and you could slightly change the character of the top or bottom end independently that way. |
I would describe myself as being at the bottom of the learning curve on bi-amping. Currently I have one P-102 and want to learn from other people's experience on the benefit of vertical vs. horizontal and active and passive.
For vertical bi-amp, would one really benefit from 100% of each amplifier? and what effect would it have in terms of the load current wise? Thanks. |
Metronet, could you describe what exactly you are after, or what you would like to correct with what you already have? As someone above already noted, bi-wiring I think is essential with these speakers. If you want to add a little more mids, a trick I've heard about is to add another run of cable to the mids/tweets, so in essence you'd be having three runs to a speaker.
There are lots of threads on here about the Manis, many people like loads of power with them. If that's what you are after, it might be easier to scrap your amp and get some monos or something you could bridge.
From what I've heard of a Totem, if you go messing about with the crossover, you'll not have a speaker as it was tuned to sound.
Post a bit more info, and good luck! |
Right, I forgot to mention that I am currently running bi-wires. Although I see it's one speaker cable per channel but I think inside it has multiple cores (?) and on the speakers side I had the jumpers removed.
I'd say there is nothing really wrong with my current setup. The class A amp for my room size and the music I listen to is perfect.
However, I do see the meter going to about 80% from time to time and am wondering if it'd help by going the bi-amp route. I never thought of upgrading because I am attached to the class A sound and getting Accuphase mono is unfortunately something that I could not afford :)
Thanks, |
More to add - my thought process is that I am concerned that the class A sound in my setup is not going to lass very long... or not? |
Ok, are you ready, You can make this work... Get yourself another amp. Use your y connectors...or another preamp. Run one amp full range to the woofer. Use your electronic crossover and run it lower than the crossover point in your mani 2's. Say 2.5k. Run your second amp through the crossover and back into the tweeter tap of your mani's. You now have the benefits of biamping without destroying the integrity of your Totems.
The Totem crossovers are in tact and working as designed. One amp runs the woofers full range, the second runs the tweeters, electronicly crossed through your Accuphase.
This will work with good results. |
Agreed, it will work, but will it compromise sound quality?
I guess there's only one way to know...:)
Metronet, you should ask a dealer or company about the load and your 80%. As long as it doesn't sound overloaded, I would think it fine. Manis are a notorious load, down to 3 or 3.5. |
Very interesting idea. What's the benefit of doing it this ways as opposed to the regular passive horizontal biamping? Also, there's no crossover in the tweeter section? Thanks. |
The Electronic is crossed slightly below the tweeter, so the Mani's own passive will still work as designed.
As far as benefits, it is for the tweeter only. The bass requires a huge percentage of the amplifiers power, so that amp will do its job as normal. The tweeter's amp will have the benefit of playing no bass, it will have all the normal benefits of Bi amping. |
you really, really need to search the archives on biamping. There is one thread on this topic that has some excellent discussion and contribution from Steve McCormack. Find it, read it.
Also, I did biamp my Mani's. The result was at best a marginal improvement. I corresponded with Totem and they indicate you're much better off using a single higher power amp than biamping - so with the Manis the bang for the buck in adding a second amp is ver marginal. Not so with other speakers, but true for Manis. That said, since you have the second amp already - get some Y adapters (they are cheap) and try it. Just do it and you will have your questions answered. |
I agree that the improvements will be marginal at best. If you have the hardware already, I'd try it. If you don't I would not. I was only trying to come up with a solution to get it done. I have not seen a really high quality Y adapter either. That would add a very weak link.
Good Luck, Tim |
Also, just to be thourough, what stands are you using? Can make a big difference, although you were more concerned about amp clipping, sorry.
Agree with last posts, I think you've gone about as far as you can go with your Accuphase. Love it or move to another amp.
Have fun! |
Thanks guys. I am extremely happy with my setup right now and will keep it is and continue to love it. Regarding stands I am using four Target T stands filled with lead shots, two speaker spikes each because the speaker is a bit longer in length. I am looking at the Sound Anchor stands, they look very nice.
Bdgregory, a thread that I could gain knowledge from is exactly what I am looking for. Is this the right one you refereed to?
>> http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1185660642 |
that's the one! I recall others that are useful and worth taking in as well since they all have testimonials, but it's best when there is authoritative contribution like Steve McC provided. |
