@thekong Thanks for your updates.
I have seen either double or single platform on Micro Seiki's. But for the double platforms, they tend to be the same non-suspension footers for both. With Verdier users, I have seen different suspension platforms used on plinth and motor. That seems quite counterintuitive, to say the least. But apparently, that's how it's done.
https://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio/armboards-pods-plinths?lightbox=dataItem-kzb7w47a
https://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio/armboards-pods-plinths?lightbox=dataItem-kkr568g8
Links above are to Steve's Magna Audio web-site in UK with beautiful ebony arm-boards.
Your idea of an arm-board that straddles both mounting holes for the Kuzma Airline will be the most stable way to mount a linear tracker on the deck. That would be an interesting project!
Regarding threads, I am using a viscose and pure silk threads from Japan. However, I have toyed with trying the K5 kevlar threads used on Micro Seiki's.
I have been following some of your past posts, especially your experiences with the legendary Rockports. Very impressive!
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While reading a review of VPI Titan on Mono & Stereo magazine, The writer, Richard Mak, mentioned the Verdier La Platine. He owns the Verdier with a modified suspension. He apparently used replacement springs that are 1.6 times stronger than existing.
How do you go about dismantling the existing suspension footers? Has any one attempted such a tweak? |
@thekong I use a LT tonearm, Trans-Fi Terminator. The arm, originally designed and built in the UK, is made in Russia now. I requested an after market arm- board from the producer of the arm as he too has a Verdier. It is laminated from Finnish plywood and carbon fiber. And I level the plinth as well as the pod before mounting the tonearm. I has to use a spacer plated under the arm pod with my previous SME V to overcome clearance problems.
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@thekong The Terminator is underrated. If you had used it before and liked it, then wait til you hear it with a 150 litre surge tank / buffer setup. It becomes Terminator Se+ version! I run it at 1.30 psi. Members here have operated with pressure as low as 0.5psi.
A 16" version would be something to see.
Does your friend go by "Daiwok'?
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@thekong I am wondering if you have a preference between the Kuzma or Schroeder arm? I realize it's more an arm / cartridge issue, but is one arm a better fit for the Verdier? Do you need two different arm-pods for each arm? Any arm height, clearance, or set up issues one need to look out for?
BTW, I learnt a lot from Daiwok regarding the Terminator. He turned me onto the idea of additional air filtration. I wrote to Vic once regarding filtration, and it appears that he had always been using the generic 1 gallon tank!
@phantom_av Do you currently use an anti-vibration platform, DIY or otherwise?
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@thekong For the sake of flexibility, the arm pod is best separated in two pieces, a column with a mounting plate. And with your column allowing for two heights, it is even better. I am thinking about adding a second arm. With my setup, the new arm will have to be a pivot type, hence my curiosity.
I seem to recall an Airline mounted on a Verdier, but search as I might, no image showed up. Yours may well be the first of such a combination. Please update when it happens, would be interested in your observations.
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@thekong Yes, indeed!
And in fact, the deck is fitted with the Callas Audio Modification Kit. Please note the spindle piece behind the platter on the left. The modification allows the adjustement of the platter weight on the spindle bearing. This presumably enhances the bass performance of the La Platine, among other benefits.
A review of the Mod kit can be viewed here:
www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf.
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@phantom_av The assumption that switching out the stock motor ( with presumably a more expensive motor ) would amount to an 'upgrade' may need some comment. I begun this thread 1 1/2 year ago with the same assumption. I had speed stability issues. However, with experiments on threads, advises by more experienced La Platine users on how to work with thread tensions, and the Callas audio upgrade, https://www.callas-audio.nl/Platine%20tips%20&%20tweaks.pdf ( including the battery conversion ), I am very comfortable with how the stock motor is operating. There are definitely tweaks to look into for improvements. In speaking to a fellow La Platine owner recently who has converted to a Dereneville motor ( in the $4k - $5k range ), his advise to me was to stick with the existing motor. In a separate thread on the What's Best Forum, the same person stated that the Dereneville motor lowered the background and that he was happy to have made the 'upgrade'. However, noting his private conservation to me, he is really saying that it may not necessarily be money well spent. ( He did mentioned that a well considered isolation platform was a definite upgrade for the La Platine. ) Be that as it may, here is a list of motor options that I have researched as possible 'upgrade' : 1. Dereneville Audio has at least three possible model that would work. 2. Sperling Audio has two motors. 3. Galibier Design is marketing its motor with modification as a fit for the Verdier. Thom has commented on this thread with the advise to defeat the suspension of the Verdier for best results with his motor and tape drive. 4. SOTA Turntable has a motor paired with a servo system, i.e. Roadrunner, under its Eclipse series that would be another option that I seriously considered. You would have to construct a housing for the motor. 5. Jasmine audio has a motor which I own. Admittedly, this is perhaps not in the same league as the above motor systems. I have paired the motor with an Origin Live belt made for Micro Seiki. It is a different sonic presentation than the thread drive, a little closed in. My conclusion with the Jasmine is that a different motor would definitely change the complexion of the Verdier. But at what cost would the change be an upgrade? |
@thekong BTW what record weight are you using?
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@thekong I suppose with careful adjustment of the ball / platter interface, you could allow a fraction of the weight of the platter to bear on the bearing. This will achieve a more controlled bass response according to the reviewer of the mod kit above.
According to an early poster on this thread, Mr. Verdier began supplying the ball after requests from customers, and thought the the deck would work without the ball; so the Mod Kit was an attempt to improve on a perceived weakness by some, but not by the maker.
What is a bit confusing for me regarding the reviewer’s comments on the Mod Kit is the claim that the Continuum Caliburn uses magnetic bearing with adjustable bearing weight. From what I can find, the Caliburn is an air-bearing, vacuum hold-down deck. The newer Continuum Obsidian however does employ magnets.
I am not using the ball.
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@dover What is the advantage of a AC motor?
@pindac Thanks for the LDA reference. But I am afraid I have no idea if this controller can be adopted to a Verdier motor? How is it done with the Garrards' and Lencos'? Very intriguing!
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@dover Thank you for the primer of AC motor. Going down this route in search of an upgraded motor would really require quite a bit of research, certainly not a plug and play option. Just a quick search on ebay on ac motors turned up various vintage models. Quite bewildering! I will report back.
@pindac I reached out to Nick, though I am quite out of my depth here. The LDA is not a drop-in solution vis-a-vis the existing Verdier Motor / controller. Modifications will have to be preformed to the existing or coupled to a new ac motor?
It has been quite an interesting turn of discussion. @phantom_av This line of discussion may not have been what you were looking for, but certainly food for thought. It was certainly for me. Thanks all!
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@pindac Thank you for the words of encouragement from the last post.
Well, after some back and forth, Nick Gorman has agreed to adapt the LDA to a new motor, if I can source one. @dover is there a AC motor that you could readily recommend? Or would I be looking at vintage / idler type motors to adapt to?
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@phantom_av May I ask the reason for keeping the Verdier and selling the SP10R? The SP10R should have no problem keeping speed.
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@phantom_av Would you list the brands of the motor / controller? I would be interested. Thanks!
BTW, I saw your ad for the SP10R. I especially like the acoustand derilium plinth. It is beautiful!
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@phantom_av Yes, due diligence is important. Do keep us posted on the motor front.
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I am using a Micro CU 180 on the Verdier, obviously no issues at all.
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I have a SUT, 20cm, and a tube phono stage, 40 cm, behind the PV. This set up induces hum. However, I have always manage to reduce or eliminate it. I have copper wires connected to the grounding posts of the SUT, tube phono, and a second SS phono. And this has solved the problem.
I do not know if the magnets of the PV are directly responsible for the hum, though I suspect they probably are. But hum issues has been a solvable problem for me.
@newtoncr Having looked at your beautiful listening room and your SME 30, I was initially uncertain why you would looked into owning the PV. But as a second TT it would make sense. If your dealer does not allow a home trail, would you be able to A/B the La Platine and the Nouvelle at his shop? The oil thrust bearing of the Nouvelle is carried into the TOTL Magnum Verdier, though in a much more sophisticated version.
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@newtoncr If you do venture into a Verdier, I would sincerely appreciate a follow-up from you. My friend has a SME 30/2 with various arms / cartridge changes, and I could never get a handle of the differences between the two TT, too many variables. In addition, he has a much more resolved system than mine with Dartzeel and Magico in the loop. I have always been curious about the the true measure of the 30/2. The Lyra Etna Lambda SL is high on my list of the next step up.
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@phantom_av Sorry to be a nuisance, but I was wondering if your Japanese motor experiment is bearing fruit?
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I experimented with defeating the suspension of the Verdier using macassar ebony footers. These foorters were sourced locally, 2.5 cm dia. x 5 cm tall. They rest on a 1 cm dia. crystal ball and ebony cup. I use a total of six, four at each corner and two near the spindle.
The result sonically is a blacker background, better clarity and smoothness on both ends of the frequencies, and more stable imaging with the soundstage. The width and depth of the soundstage seems unaffected.
I have read in this forum thread from folks who advocate keeping the suspension intact, even for the black MDF plinth version which I own. However, re-reading information on motor control by Thom @thom_at_galibier_design , it seemed to make sense. He is an advocate of tight coupling of motor and platter. And it turns out in my case, I do hear improvement in sound quality. And this is a first step in the road to maybe improving the motor aligning myself with advocates of non-suspended plinth.
I also use an air bearing linear tracking tonearm and often wondered might it not work better on a non-suspended plinth. Again, there are folks who use ET arms on the Verdier although most LT arms, that I know of, are used on the concrete polymer plinth. In any case, I am happy to report that this sound improving tweak is working for me. YMMV
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@dover Thanks for that tip, written by a true veteran. It took me until yesterday to try it out. I cannot hear a definite improvement, but certainly didn’t hurt.
I know you have moved on from the Verdier, but I am still continually intrigued so I muddle along quite happily.
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Dear Verdier owners,
The following is a text from fellow Audiogoner @mlrose in France:
‘In addition, following the takeover of the Verdier brand by Pro-Ject (Audio Tuning Audio Group), I had an interesting exchange with Eric Verdier, the son of Jean Constant Verdier. I asked him about the future of La Platine and the heavy maintenance to be carried out. Here is what he answered me (in French that I translated into English):
"Ils sont en train de fabriquer une première série de platines Verdier... la suite dira si cela se passe bien ou non.
Sur la question de la maintenance lourde, je suppose que s’ils sont capables de fabriquer des platines, ils en seront capables aussi. Ceci dit, il n’y a jamais de maintenance lourde sur une platine Verdier. Les pièces mécaniques sont inusables à l’échelle d’une vie humaine et vous n’avez pas à vous inquiéter pour cela".
"They (Audio Tuning Audio Group) are currently manufacturing a first series of Verdier turntables... the follow-up will tell if it goes well or not.
On the question of heavy maintenance, I suppose that if they are capable of manufacturing turntables, they will be capable of this too. That said, there is never any heavy maintenance on a Verdier turntable. The mechanical parts are indestructible on the scale of a human life and you do not have to worry about that".
I bought an original brass pulley from Audio Tuning Audio Group.’
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@mr_gray Thank you for the concise summary of your experience with the La Platine.
I have a few questions:
1. Are you listening to the turntable with the suspension defeated? When you say that it sounds more ‘analytical’ without suspension, my interpretation is that the sound becomes more precise and sure footed. There are those who feel that the suspension is an integral part of how the La Platine works. But for the past two years I have listened to it without suspension. I don’t feel that doing so compromises its musicality, but we all hear differently.
2. What kind of thread are you using? When you apply the thread ‘ quite loose’, how loose? I use pure silk and viscose threads. And there has to be some tension involved. With these kinds of threads, you cannot apply too much or they’ll just come loose. But when I pluck on the threads, they are definitely reverberating. If there are ‘loose’, I cannot keep the correct speed.
3. How are you connecting the LPS to the motor unit? You also mentioned DC conversion, not quite sure how you can do both? The motor’s speed control did eventually give way last year. And I replaced the LM 317t ( a regulating chip ? ). When it was being serviced, I used another motor + belt combination for a few months. I am now much more appreciative of the original motor’s ability. Yes, it requires constant tweaking, but the stock motor is good.
Your comparison to the 401 and AN TT3 is very informative. And the timing of your post is uncanny. I was just looking into a possible second TT. And the two turntables I was researching yesterday was a 401 and a Voyd which the TT3 is based on, I think, good to know your thoughts.
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@lewm
The sensor would be placed on the underside of the aluminum alloy platter which overhangs the magnets by about 4cm. The actual magnet sensor is approximately 5mm. If it is placed close to the edge of the platter, then there would be a 3.5cm clearance from the two La Platine magnets. This may be enough to avoid any disturbances, but it really has not been tested.
@xdr wrote about his experience with the Eclipse on the La Nouvelle, the baby brother / sister of the La Platine. The Nouvelle does not use magnetic repulsion on the platter, so his application of the Eclipse motor had no problems.
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@lewm
The more I look at the La Platine, the more I think you are correct about the incompatibility of the Eclipse drive system with it.
I doubt if SOTA would provide a definitive answer. It would be good to hear from someone who has tried.
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@mr_gray
The magnet replacement is really a rarity. Did you replace both the top and bottom magnets? How did you attached the magnets to the aluminum platter? How did you remove the magnets from the platter to begin with? Can you post some pictures?
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@mr_gray
I just did a quick online search, and Y30 or Y35 ferrite magnet discs of varying dimensions are readily available!
On the old Verdier web-site JC Verdier spec’d out the type of carbon steel used, TELAR 57 of ARMCO, which have the suitable magnetic properties for use in his TT. What is the connection of the Y30 ferrite to ARMCO steel type? I just do not know my metallurgy that well.
And correct me if I have misread your post. The aluminum platter and the magnet are attached by magnetic attraction, no adhesives are involved? I had been taught that magnets do not interact with aluminum, hence the question.
Regarding the strength of the magnets , a Dutch audio dealer, Callas Audio, came out with a limited addition mod kit for the La Platine. It could varying the amount of magnetic force. The result of which is better bass response. Some user would use the ball as a corrective against the magnetic force.
@dover Eclipse motor + Road runner sold as a kit from SOTA does not come with a housing. Additional costs with a custom housing and a separate linear power supply would have to be factored in. As @lewm had advised, I will shot a quick note to Donna at SOTA and Bill Carlin regarding magnetic interference when the time comes.
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@mr_gray
Thanks for the further explanation, crystal clear. The outer ring collar attaches to the platter, and prying will release the magnet from the platter. Who would have known without your actual tinkering?
I know you have a lot on your plate right now, but have you also played with mats? I have been using a Micro Seiki cu 180 copper mat for the past few years. But last week decided to remove it and play nude. I like it without the mat!
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@mr_gray
i have been looking for a second turntable. The choice range from nostalgia:TT I had e.g. Townshend or SOTA or TT I wished I had, e.g. Forsell, Simon Yorke…. Most recently I was looking for a Voyd, preferably a Reference. I think the AT TT3 is based on the Voyd. I am just curious how the tt3 compares with the Verdier.
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@mr_gray
As dedicated to the La Platine as I am, and curious about the differences between a Classic and a Granito, I’d leave this comparison to others. I did search on audio-mafkt for the granito, and it’s a nice one with grey stone inlays.
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@dover I found the custom footers that Magna Audio produced for you. I assume the existing spring footers have to be removed. Can you explain how that is done? Do I remove all the screws on the underside of the plinth, and the spring assembly just comes loose?
@mr_gray I have too many second TT choices on my wish list. For contemporary TT, l like the Japanese CS Port, thread based with air bearing, non-feedback motor, and a really nice LT tonearm. For Vintage, the Forsell Reference, again with LT arm. For mostly nostalgia a SOTA and a Townshend are options.
You mentioned the Kuzma Safir, that is my top choice for a second arm. But the truth is l spend less than 25 hrs / week listening to my system. I am good for now.
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