Phase Coherence or Time Alignment: Which More Imp?


This thread is really a follow on from a prior one that I let lapse. Thanks to everyone who contributed and helped me to better understand the importance of crossover design in building a loudspeaker. What I gathered from the last thread that there are opposing camps with different philosophies in crossover design. Leaving aside for a moment those that champion steep slope designs, my question is for those who have experience with speakers that are time aligned and/or phase coherent (using 1st order 6db per octave crossovers). Which is more important, phase coherence or time alignment? In other words, which more strongly influences the sound and performance of a loudspeaker? The reason I ask is because of the four speaker lines currently on my shortlist of floorstanders, three are either phase coherent or time aligned or both. The Wilson Benesch Curve's/ACT's and the Fried Studio 7 use 1st order crossovers but do not time align the drivers through the use of a slanted baffle. The Vandersteen 5's and the Quatro's both time align the drivers and use 1st order crossovers. I guess what I am asking is do you need to do both or is the real benefit in the crossover design? I'd appreciate your views.
BTW the other speaker is the Proac D25 and D38
dodgealum
It has been a while. I recall seeing phase coherence but not time coherence. I did not pursue Kaminsky's work because it could only be implemented in an active crossover. Again, it has been many years, and I could be thinking of something or someone else. What I remember for certain about Kaminsky's work is that it was excellent, and it is worth examining again. Thank you for the reminder.

Series crossovers have advantages, and disadvantages. We use parallel circuits, which seem to have fewer disadvantages. I do not agree with statements like "better dynamic coupling of the drivers, using a series circuit", as I have never seen any definition of what that actually means.

Bud Fried made so many important contributions- he will be missed. The first speakers I heard that opened my ears in many, many ways were his original IMF transmission line speakers, in 1972.

Warmest regards, Bud. Thank you for everything.
Roy Johnson
Founder and Designer
Green Mountain Audio
First order crossovers, 6 db per octave, are the only one's which 'supposedly' offer the least phase shift, that is energy storage, and shift from one driver to the next.
The issue at hand is the enormous amount of work that each driver, since it rolls in and rolls out at 6 db per octave, has to operate over too wide of a frequency bandwidth,causing notable limitations in dynamics , or distortions which are unacceptably high.
When I worked for THIEL Jim Thiel would attempt to compensate (in part) by using special pole piece which allowed for linear treatment of the magnetic field over the coil in the driver throughout its proposed excursion, since that excursion was by necessity very long throw. This is like saying the sky is blue, because the ocean is too. It is a self defeating, and repeating argument, and certainly a condrum for designers who chose to use this cross over design.
Some designers, feel that first order crossovers place too many negatives in the picture for a natural and relaxed sound; not to mention that the lobing effects of the drivers at various distances (you do the math) causes frequency anomolies, such as suck outs and the inverse, causing room reflexions which look nothing like the output at the speaker. That may sound benign, but imagine, every echo and room reflexion sounding different than the signal at 8 feet, or at your listening position, this causes for a confused signal to the listener. So, some question, "what if a combination of slopes could create a sound"... that, at the listener and throughout the room, are close to identical as the actual measured output of the speaker; i.e. no lobing issues, and no tweeter having to operate like this, in this scenario. Using a 3K crossover point as many do, (too high in my opinion) but in that instance, the driver is down 6db at 1500Hz, then 12db @750Hz, 18db @375. (It's after midnight don't check the math with a calculator PLEASE) So significant midrange information is coming from a (generally 1" dome). That, IMHO is too much to ask of a driver of that size and excursion potential. Plus, again the issue of the lobing, caused by sharing of common frequencies, with the mid range, which in turn is also, asked to put out vast quantities of bass, making enormous excursions. A recipe for disaster for the wrong driver.
This first order design is one of those engineering arguments which looks great on paper, but in practice faces significant challenges, and the creation of drivers which operate in a manner not generally available to them by dent of their very design, and the known limits of drivers, given the laws of physics.
Other solutions, other than phase coherence gained through first order networks, IMHO is the answer. But time and space don't allow for all to be said here.
Thank you. Those crossovers interest me, but it seems the patent holder (?) has a kind of underdeveloped speaker site and seems to charge a lot for the speakers, which, of course, I've never heard.
I don't understand your post. There is no 'patent holder' per se on cross overs; what 'site' are you refering to--and who charges a lot for their speakers?
Sorry, not being sarcastic maybe I'm just thick today, but I really don't understand your comment/question.
Please clarify.
It's odd that Bud Fried, (who I had the pleasure of knowing) is part of this conversation, and as Lincoln might have said, "it is altogether fitting and proper..."
Bud Fried's TL series made be become an audiophile back in the early 1980's. I fell in love then, with the, almost polar opposite, THIEL, and met, eventually worked for Jim Thiel. The one undeniable comment about Fried, or IMF as they were after the first split, (women, you know)--were the most 'musical' speaker around. They had the magic, and people didn't talk about 1st order, or this and that, they were too busy playing music to talk about it.
Plus, with no 'time alignment' they imaged wonderfully.
But, and this is not sentimental fluff, the music came out of the boxes just like it's supposed to.
I guess, Fried more than any other product was my inspiration for my speakers, (to be released, God help us soon). I just tried my best to make them sound like music. Forget the popular jargon, and make them sound like something that makes you want to sit 'all the way through an album', and not get up and change the record or disc, because it sounds to 'bright' or amusical.
An acquaintence came by during my final voicing, and said, (this is from the heart, not a commercial) 'your speakers make me want to listen to music again." Honest to God, a comment like that will put tears in your eyes.
I think about Bud, (and Jim) and their influence as opposite as they were, and thank them both, because without either, the industry would be poorer.
Sorry for the melodrama, but I mean every word.
Larry