You Cant Buy It but you Can Build It

@mahlman --

"If pure sound quality was the metric they use I can only think they have not heard such a system. I suspect however that there is a lot of snobery involved and it is just "not possible" that serious hobbiests can build better than the high end audio store offerings."

"High-end" audio is a genre, even; it is as much defined by character and limitations as it cultivates certain virtues in reproduction, while not least being overly expensive. Our "playground" would seem to challenge the narrative of audiophiles-at-large that it’s moved outside their field of interest. Indeed, one can only do so much to get them to assess with an open mind, if they ever meet up.

"I find that when I have to put a lot of watts into a speaker to get decent volume I have also lost some fidelity. On a two way double 12" woofer + a horn top I have built the least I considered was 99db on the woofers. These things have great crsip sound and tremendous fidelity and even with Bach organ up pretty loud you have to put your hand on the cone to feel the excursion since visually it is almost imperceptible. I also prefer cloth accordian surrounds which only come with more efficient woofers.

I have about lost interest in 15" woofers which just don’t sound as tight to me as a good 12". Impacts on percussion are sharper and realistic acoustic string resonance is more defined for example."

I was at one point hellbent on all-horn, and while this is still largely where I’m coming from there are variations in design to attain an end goal that is hugely satisfying. A departure of sorts early on was choosing Tapped Horn subs instead of the more classical Front Loaded Horn dittos, which is really about maximizing the potential of a given cone size using both its front and back wave while attaining excursion minima at the tune (as opposed to a FLH that has the driver placed in a sealed chamber and excursion max. at tune). Then came the experiment choosing dual, vertically placed and direct radiating 15’s to closely mimic the dispersion pattern at the cross-over from the large HP9040 horn for a better uniformity and coherency of sound. High-passing those 15’s fairly high means movement is reduced to zilch, even at close to war volume, and the 15" drivers in the TH subs only vibrate at volumes that are physically overwhelming. Next may be trying out another variation on the 6th order BP that shaves off a wee bit size (from 20 to 16 cf.) but adds pro driver size from 15 to 21" and has a variable tune. They’re dynamite in a relatively limited package, and it pays off in dividends with regard to smooth, effortless and natural bass reproduction also due to a cleaner and more extended upper range.

My preferred surround types are cloth and foam. Foam is very low loss and more modern foams last up to about 25 years. Cloth is also very good, lasts longer, but is usually best at limited excursion (as in your case). Rubber I try to avoid, and has for some time now.

@mijostyn --

"... use a USB DAC or a USB to SPDIF converter to a DAC."

There are other ways, equally well or better sounding to my ears.

@phusis , I did not say there were not other ways. They are generally a lot more expensive, not any better sounding and have limited functionality vs a full fledged computer. My system doubles as a theater. I can also stream videos and movies as well as any audio service. I can record records to the hard drive and AB various versions of ...you name it. IMHO music servers are an insane waste of money. It is like comparing the pricing of commercial vs consumer audio equipment. Hint, professionals are not as easily conned.

One last thing. The problem with ears is that they are connected to a brain and when brains are concerned all bets are off. Example. Have a dispute with your wife then go mow down 50 people with an SUV. Sometimes brains really s-ck. 

The material a surround it made from really does not matter. It is the design of the surround given the drivers intended use. Certain designs work best with certain materials. Subwoofers need a large X max and a long throw, low compliance suspension requiring large dual spiders and butyl surrounds. Foam surrounds are a poor choice for subwoofer drivers as the stress causes even the good foam to disintegrate. 25 years is not good enough. A suspension should never fail.

@mahlman , unless you are using an insanely large driver (21") you are not going very low at all. In order to move the amount of air required to produce a 20 Hz note a 12 or 15" driver has to move quite a distance especially at volume. Even at moderate levels the excursions would be plainly noticeable. If they are not then your woofers are not doing anything below 40 Hz. It is simple physics and it does not matter what type of enclosure you are using. Distortion does increase with excursion distance after a point. Modern subwoofer drivers can easily do 1 cm excursions without distortion, some up to 2 cm. Down below 40 Hz it is not what you hear that counts. It is what you feel. A 20 Hz sine wave played at just 75 dB causes my entire house to rattle. I have four 12" subwoofers in a 16 foot wide room and you can see the excursions across the room. I made my enclosures with Corian laminated to MDF with a layer of glass microspheres in between. Each one weights 200 lb. They are sealed. 

@mijostyn  On the two way with 12"double woofers I go down to around 35hz before serious drop off. The all horn setup however throws that rule out the window and now going down to 27hz is no issue and that gets me virtually all the common instruments. A horn will easily go down to 20hz or lower if I were to build one for that with little excursion at any volume I am willing to listen at. Really deep bass is not pleasant to me and I avoid it. I have never built with being a pure subwoofer as my intent.

  The Super MWM bass bin mentioned at the begining of this thread for instance was derived from an MCM 1900 Klipsch set designed for 600 seat venues.It can just loaf along and give more db's then I can handle.

Similar experience, but I don't do it because it's something I couldn't buy. For me, there's a satisfaction about building your own. Also, I don't like to waste money and DIY can be much cheaper. And I respect certain independent speaker designers because they focus on what's audible over what's saleable. My secondary system has DIY Linkwitz LXMinis with a chain of Amazon Music HD via Alexa (or FLAC on MusicBee cast wirelessly from a laptop) > DTS Play-Fi > Paradigm PW Link > MiniDSP 2x4 HD > AIYIMA A07 amps > LXMinis. When using Alexa, which I do 95% of the time, the system is completely voice-controlled. Even turning it on is voice-controlled, so I literally never have to touch anything. I even wrapped 12 gauge OFC speaker cable in braided sleeves.

The MiniDSP had the PEQs pre-programmed for this setup. The LXMinis are accurate when measured with REW, and they hit all the attributes when listening to the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, but I've always thought they could use more bass, which isn't going to happen because, besides a subwoofer or two, it would require a new $500 MiniDSP and new PEQ programming. And since this is a secondary system, I don't want to spend the money. Overall, this system cost less than $1,500, including the laptop and Echo.

My future primary system is partially built (lacks cosmetics and a suitable place to place them for now) and consists of DIY BFM Davids. They have been tested with vintage amps being fed by a SMSL Sanskrit 10th Mk II DAC sourced by my phone. If you consider my vintage Pioneer SA-8800 into the cost, this system cost less than $2,000. About the same as just one of my HT subwoofers cost new.

Since you've decided to stick with the Real-Tek, I suspect you've read the Tom's Hardware DAC test, which would give you comfort in your selection. I decided to go with the SMSL just to get the best measurements for the best value.

However, I would dissuade inexperienced DIYers from this endeavor if their goal is to save money because after they buy all the tools, supplies and whatnot, they likely won't. And it's very likely they'll screw up something, which will cost even more money.

@jssmith  RE the Realtek I had forgotten about Tom's. I used to go there for graphics card reviews but never thought about audio. I have heard a number of systems and the definition I heard with the Realtak was what kept me there.

  I find it interesting though that Tom's likes the idea of a PC based music server. I can mix and match and have a set for the day and another for tomorrow grabbed out of almost 2TB of music. I would have it no other way.

 I am going to try that Mini DSP HD on my smaller two way soon. I hear good things about it and it sure is cheaper than Xilicas.

I agree with the idea to save money is the only reason to start DIY you might not save any especially if you place a dollar amount on your time to learn. I am fortunate in that design software and a Haas VF-4 for milling were allready paid for from my metal working business so the tools to make things and skills were there.

DIY can still be cheaper though if you go with proven designs and flat packs and the associated proven drivers and beat the pants of virtually all the audio store offerings. #1 problem I have seen with inexperience is the idea you can just take all that stuff you have accumulated over the years and cut holes in wood, assemble and it will just sound wonderful. Does not work that way.