ZYX UNIverse X-SB 0.24 sounding "too much"

Linnmaster,

I used 1:10 BentAudio Mu's for several years with my UNIverses (and other carts) before changing to an MC phono stage. You mentioned that some have loaded their UNIverse down to around 6.54 ohms. Since that is precisely the value we found optimum (in our system) I imagine you must be quoting one of my old posts. So first, let me say "hi"!

You're correct that the Mu's resistor posts are on the secondary.

All your math is correct too.

Your finding that 9.04 ohms sounds "really really good", but that 6.4 ohms was too low is unsurprising. Systems differ. The value that worked best in our system was not best when we tried our Mu's and UNIverse in other systems.

In our setup 6.4 would also have been too low. We found the acceptable range was very narrow. We could hear differences between 6.54, 6.55, 6.57, 6.58 and 6.59 ohms. These ridiculously tiny changes were made by putting TWO resistors on each set of binding posts. This fine tuning was the only way we could get the performance we wanted.

FWIW, Riken ohms sounded best to our ears/in our system.

How is it that the UNIverse is sounding so good wayy down at 9.04 ohms and also (potentially) between 100 and 125 ohms?

That hasn't been demonstrated yet. If it turns out to be true, my only guess is that, as Dave Slagle explained in a post last Fall, loading an SUT on the secondary only is an incomplete method that doesn't control winding resonance on both sides. Secondary-only loading controls resonance on the secondary side but may not be optimum for controlling primary side winding resonances. The optimal solution is to load each side (differently of course), with the primary side load controlling those windings and the cartridge. The solution offered by the Mu's is a compromise, and you may find one load controls one side better while another load controls the other side better. Oy!

That gets too complex for me! Our active stage is superior to our Mu's, so we haven't used them in quite a while. I'd urge you to experiment with two resistors on the posts however. That really helped us fine tune, and since your SUT is 1:20 while mine is 1:10, your setup will react more to small changes.

And also, is 100 ohms total on SUT's + phono the same as 100 ohms on an active gain phono?

No. They are quite different.

An active stage has no windings, primary or secondary, that need resonance control. The optimum sounding value with an active stage is almost always much higher than with SUT's, and the precise value needed is less critical. No one could hear a 2 or 3 ohm change through an active stage but, as you've just demonstrated, the same change through an SUT makes a huge difference. We play our UNIverse through the MC stage of our Doshi Alaap at around 200 ohms. I can switch to 75 ohms and the sound is slightly closed in, but the difference is far subtler than with an SUT.

The UNIverse, as Dan_Ed said, can surpass what the XV-1S is capable of, but it will require much work and fine tuning to make that happen. Unless everything in a system and setup are optimized to the nth degree, the UNIverse will only be a really good cartridge. It's ability to be an extraordinary, mind-altering cartridge requires a certain amount of fanaticism. Judging by your posts on this thread, I think you have potential. ;-)

Bill,

Our experiences differ, obviously. Dan and I hear what we hear. You hear what you hear. Which experiences are more "true" is nothing either of us can determine.

That said, if your UNIverse sounds congested during complex passages then I believe something's misadjusted, mismatched or flawed. In my system and others, no cartridge I've heard sounds less congested, including the two you mentioned.

Keeping the thread on topic (more or less), what phono stage(s) do you use?

Halcro,
It's certainly not my intent to turn anyone off the UNIverse. Far from it! I agree with you, Radicalsteve and many others that it stands above any cartridge I've heard for reproducing like a master tape (nicely put by the way).

My stating how critically we adjust may seem offputting to some, I guess it's just what we do. We hear the differences (Dan_Ed, Swampwalker and Raul have heard them too) so we adjust. Whether they, you or anyone else does is up to them, and certainly not worth worrying about.

Last night we listened for hours, just for pleasure, not doing any sort of audiophile testing or comparisons. The program was a bit mixed:

Beethoven Symphony #2, Hogwood/AAM, L'oiseau Lyre

'Les Plaisir de Renaissance', Dansons et Chansons, luth & flutes a bec with counter-tenor, Harmonia Mundi (France)

Beatles, 'Abbey Road', MFSL

The Biggs Bach Book, E. Power Biggs, Columbia Masterworks

'Trio', Dolly Parton, Linda Rondstadt, Emmy Lou Harris, Warner Brothers

The bass on Abbey Road and on Biggs' organ was tremendous, especially considering the limited dynamics of the Masterworks pressing. So were the drums on the Beethoven.

Did we adjust VTA for each LP? Yes, but we've done that for years, starting before we ever owned a ZYX. Other cartridges have needed VTA "right" more than the UNIverse. Our Shelter 901's frequency balance changed alot with arm height. No ZYX ever makes gross errors like that, VTA just gets the timing between fundamentals and harmonics right.

Did I tweak VTF occasionally, by .005g or less, to get the sonic balance just right? Yes. Our ears say to do it so we do. For us, optimal VTF is so critical that it can change from LP to LP, but this is because we play on the knife's edge of mistracking. Our visitors always hear the right spot when I demonstrate, but they might not notice or care if I just set it say .1 gram heavier and ignored it. We notice, so we adjust. Call us fanatics. :-)

Radicalsteve and Linnmaster,
I agree the ZYX pre-pre and the Artisan phono are quite good, better than the BentAudio Mu's in our experience. They're also good value. IME, to do notably better you have to spend a lot more money, and even that's no guarantee. I've heard MC phono stages that cost double the Artisan but don't come close.

Stltrains summarized perfectly:

"If you are using Universe and not getting these [superb] results you need to look at your other components there is where the problem will lie."

I'd go 85%! ;-) The XV-1S is a very good cartridge. I've never heard one do anything wrong, in Dan's system, ours or elsewhere.

David,

The ZYX pre-pre has a fixed input impedance of 125 ohms, right in the heart of the optimal range for a 4 ohm MC when using an active gain stage. It's perfect for a LO ZYX (naturally) and should be good for an XV-1S too. Remember, getting impedance precisely right is far less critical with an active gain stage than with SUT's. We play at ~200 ohms and anything from 100-200 would be fine. Close counts.

Like an SUT, the pre-pre provides no RIAA equalization. It's intended to plug into the MM inputs of a phono stage.

Your SUT's provide 26 db of gain. The ZYX pre-pre provides only 20. This may or may not be sufficient, depending on the gain structure of the rest of your system. The gain calculator at www.kabusa.com may help you figure that out.

David,

I'm reminded that my BentAudio Mu's are the copper wired version, and that your silver ones are more transparent by all reports of those who've heard both. Take that into account in your decision.

Doug

That's an overly simple assumption. The sonic problem you described could be caused by many things.

There's no obvious reason to suspect an arm/cart mismatch. The UNIverse is actually quite forgiving as to tonearms. It sends less stray energy into the arm than many cartridges and your arm is of a suitable effective mass. It's possible, but I don't think it's likely.

Arm/table mismatches are rare and usually involve heavy arms messing up the springs on a suspended table, not your situation at all. High mass, unsprung tables can handle pretty much any arm that will fit.

For the female vocal problems you described I'd suspect, in no particular order:
- cartridge too new/not relaxed yet
- phono stage overload/slewing distortions (have to try another to know)
- cartridge not properly aligned with Mint or Wally protractor (no acceptable substitutes AFAIK)
- VTF not properly fine tuned (.01-.02g above the mistracking point)
- VTA not properly fine tuned (cartridge close to level or a hair tail-down)
- Antiskate not properly fine tuned (reduced to near zero)
- Resonances being excited in the platter and/or idler drive mechanism (haven't heard a Lenco, no idea what level of performance it's capable of)

We used to have problems like yours with certain passages, but as our system and setup improved those problems have been eliminated. The problem was not the cartridge. Today, no female vocalist on any LP fails to play well and cleanly, whether opera, jazz, blues, pop or whatever. But you have to work at it and everything in the system has to be right.